Saturday Sabbath??

MattyJames · Aug 2, 2006

Shalom Gentlemen,

Thanks for your posts. As I have stated above, I will not be debating this subject any further.

The God you portray is a respector of persons and does not agree with the 65 of the 66 authors of the Bible. As I have also stated above, all doctrine justfiying the annulling of the Law is derived from a misinterpretation of Pauline scriptures. All other writers support the keeping of the Commandments.

I will leave you to your journey of Faith. I pray that God will continue to guide you.

If you wish for me to reply in detail, then please don't hesitate to ask. But as for now, I feel I am wasting my time.

Regards,

Matt James

mont974x4 · Aug 2, 2006

Elderrmike, You are right there is more than one doctrinal issue we are discussing. Should we break it down and discuss them one at a time? There is a bit of overlap with them. However, Romans chapters 6-8 pretty well covers it all. Maybe a thread just going through those three chapters? That would be a great discussion I think.

You are right, we are justified in Christ and no act that we can do will accomplish that.

As to the NT Church, including us, we are free from the law. However, I would submit that we actually live to a higher standard than that of the OT law and the Jews. I only say that because of 1 Cor chapters 8 and 10 when the issue of the meat is concerned. I may be free to do certain things but in order to act in love as is commanded then I actually have to build relationships and really know people. For example, I can have a beer. I don't get drunk and I don't lean on it when I should be looking to God. However, if my having a beer creates an issue for other people then I am wrong.

A Brother in Christ,
are you saying that there are books of the Bible that don't apply to us as Gentiles? I think the only diference between the two Scriptures is one adds that we are to love God with our heart, mind, and soul. I seriously doubt that is a command that doesn't apply to us.

I'm not trying to hammer on you I am just trying to understand what you're saying.

While I agree that each of the Gospels was written to reach a diferent audience, they all say basically the same thing.

eldermike · Aug 2, 2006

mont974x4 said:
Elderrmike, You are right there is more than one doctrinal issue we are discussing. Should we break it down and discuss them one at a time? There is a bit of overlap with them. However, Romans chapters 6-8 pretty well covers it all. Maybe a thread just going through those three chapters? That would be a great discussion I think.

You are right, we are justified in Christ and no act that we can do will accomplish that.

As to the NT Church, including us, we are free from the law. However, I would submit that we actually live to a higher standard than that of the OT law and the Jews. I only say that because of 1 Cor chapters 8 and 10 when the issue of the meat is concerned. I may be free to do certain things but in order to act in love as is commanded then I actually have to build relationships and really know people. For example, I can have a beer. I don't get drunk and I don't lean on it when I should be looking to God. However, if my having a beer creates an issue for other people then I am wrong.

A Brother in Christ,
are you saying that there are books of the Bible that don't apply to us as Gentiles? I think the only diference between the two Scriptures is one adds that we are to love God with our heart, mind, and soul. I seriously doubt that is a command that doesn't apply to us.

I'm not trying to hammer on you I am just trying to understand what you're saying.

While I agree that each of the Gospels was written to reach a diferent audience, they all say basically the same thing.

The bible is about Jesus from the first page to the last.
Paul asked this: "so what then, should we sin all we want"? (paraphrased)

The answer is no but the purpose of the question is still important.

We can't do what Christ did, and we can't undo what Christ did.

The greatest commandment covers the whole law. Love God with all your heart soul and mind and others above yourself.
Again an impossible law to our flesh..........

But, we have the Holy Spirit and with God we can acomplish what we can't do apart from God.

There is no justification in the law, no lists of do's and don'ts. There is only your obediance to seeking Jesus and dieing to self in the process.

The only work is to believe, the only way to believe truth is written in John 14 verse 6.

I do not see a good reason to start a thread in this forum on any other means of justifcation but if you do I'll post in it

mont974x4 · Aug 2, 2006

Mike,
I completely agree. I can do no good except that which comes from Christ in me and me in Christ. He is the one and only and He is our justification/salvation. That's definately a good thing because I am very good at just making a mess of things. lol

Andyman_1970 · Aug 3, 2006

First, I'd like to clarify that I don't think any of us to attempt to practice a Sabbath are claiming it earns us salvation or get's us brownie points with God. Nor have any of us indicated that it is a "must do" for a follower of Jesus.

I however believe that taking one day a week to disconnect from the things we are slaves to (time for instance) and rest and relax is how God created us to live, it's the rhythm of life He wants us to live.

Secondly, with regards to justification/salvation, please note, no where in 1st century Judaism or the Torah for that matter, is it understood one did things to earn one's salvation, salvation always has been grace through faith.

Thirdly, the idea that without Christ a person can do no good is not supported by Scripture or the culture that gave us the Scriptures. Romans 2:14-15 Paul indicates that people who don't even know God (because they are His creation and thus are "hard wired" by Him) sometimes do what God requires........sometimes they do good things. If a person can't do anything "good" outside of Christ then that person doesn't have free will........a concept contrary to the tradition Jesus came from. Obviously this is not related to salvation (my comments on lost people doing good things), but I thought I would comment on that.

eldermike · Aug 3, 2006

Andyman_1970 said:
First, I'd like to clarify that I don't think any of us to attempt to practice a Sabbath are claiming it earns us salvation or get's us brownie points with God. Nor have any of us indicated that it is a "must do" for a follower of Jesus.

I however believe that taking one day a week to disconnect from the things we are slaves to (time for instance) and rest and relax is how God created us to live, it's the rhythm of life He wants us to live.

Secondly, with regards to justification/salvation, please note, no where in 1st century Judaism or the Torah for that matter, is it understood one did things to earn one's salvation, salvation always has been grace through faith.

Thirdly, the idea that without Christ a person can do no good is not supported by Scripture or the culture that gave us the Scriptures. Romans 2:14-15 Paul indicates that people who don't even know God (because they are His creation and thus are "hard wired" by Him) sometimes do what God requires........sometimes they do good things. If a person can't do anything "good" outside of Christ then that person doesn't have free will........a concept contrary to the tradition Jesus came from. Obviously this is not related to salvation (my comments on lost people doing good things), but I thought I would comment on that.

If man makes a moral choice he is immoral in the process. God is not making such choices because God is good. Man makes choices because he is not good. (Romans 3:23)
If God is necessary for morality, then man is immoral.
If God is soverign, then man is not making choices that have kingdom/eternal consequences.(rom 3:23 again)

Free will? Man used free will to seperate man and God, it's since never been used for any other purpose. IMHO.

Andyman_1970 · Aug 3, 2006

Romans 3:23 says all have sinned (which they all have) it doesn't say that humans who don't know Jesus can't do good things, it doesn't say sin is an inherited evil vs. a choice we make to disobey God or obey God.

Obviously we disagree on how free will is/has been used.

I've noticed over the last few weeks how many issues trace back to how one understands orginal sin and how that understanding colors how one understands the Text.

eldermike · Aug 3, 2006

Andyman_1970 said:
Romans 3:23 says all have sinned (which they all have) it doesn't say that humans who don't know Jesus can't do good things, it doesn't say sin is an inherited evil vs. a choice we make to disobey God or obey God.

Obviously we disagree on how free will is/has been used.

I've noticed over the last few weeks how many issues trace back to how one understands orginal sin and how that understanding colors how one understands the Text.

If it's not an inherited evil, and the bible is talking about men who have yet to be born, what is causing men in the future to sin, all of them?

Andyman_1970 · Aug 3, 2006

eldermike said:
If it's not an inherited evil, and the bible is talking about men who have yet to be born, what is causing men in the future to sin, all of them?

All humans choose to sin..........Paul says for all "have" sinned, He doesn't say for all will sin including people yet to be born.......although they will all choose to sin.

eldermike · Aug 3, 2006

Andyman_1970 said:
All humans choose to sin..........Paul says for all "have" sinned, He doesn't say for all will sin including people yet to be born.......although they will all choose to sin.

Why?

Andyman_1970 · Aug 3, 2006

They have chosen to follow their evil inclination (yetzer hara tendency to do evil) vs. their good inclination (yetzer ha-tov tendency to do good).

The idea that one is born guilty of sin is contrary to the Scriptures:

Ezekiel 18:20 The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the guilt of the child.

eldermike · Aug 3, 2006

Andyman_1970 said:
They have chosen to follow their evil inclination (yetzer hara tendency to do evil) vs. their good inclination (yetzer ha-tov tendency to do good).

The idea that one is born guilty of sin is contrary to the Scriptures:

Ezekiel 18:20 The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the guilt of the child.

That's correct in describing the action but insufficent to understand the reason.

If the wages of sin is death and all have sinned, and all to come will sin, then all have, and all will die.
Why?

mont974x4 · Aug 3, 2006

I think that reference in Ezekiel is an exception because of God's grace at that time. Remember there are other references that say the sin of the father will be passed on.

We are told in Romans that sin entered the world through one man, Adam, and only one man, Jesus, can restore us to God.

Since we agree that ALL have sinned I think it is safe to say that we ALL have sinned...even those yet to be born. It is inherited because of sin entering the world through Adam. Jesus is our only hope. There is however God's grace in this for those who die at such a young age that they fall under the age of accountability (which I believe is personal and is up to God as opposed to a set age) will not be damned to hell.

My comment about not being able to do good without Christ is based on the sin nature of man without Him. I may have done things that were considered good (noble gracious merciful etc) but they were discolored by that sin nature. For example, no matter how small it may have been I may have been motivated by pride. I would basically consider them to be works without faith. Remember, there will be plenty of "good" people in Hell.

I think one of the great discussions is on the issue of God's soveriegnty vs man's free will. This usually comes about when discussing predestination but certainly at other times as well. I'm not sure if my finite mind can fully understand how these pieces fit together but both these things are true:
1. God is absolutely soveriegn
2. Man has free will

eldermike · Aug 3, 2006

mont974x4 said:
I think that reference in Ezekiel is an exception because of God's grace at that time. Remember there are other references that say the sin of the father will be passed on.

We are told in Romans that sin entered the world through one man, Adam, and only one man, Jesus, can restore us to God.

Since we agree that ALL have sinned I think it is safe to say that we ALL have sinned...even those yet to be born. It is inherited because of sin entering the world through Adam. Jesus is our only hope. There is however God's grace in this for those who die at such a young age that they fall under the age of accountability (which I believe is personal and is up to God as opposed to a set age) will not be damned to hell.

My comment about not being able to do good without Christ is based on the sin nature of man without Him. I may have done things that were considered good (noble gracious merciful etc) but they were discolored by that sin nature. For example, no matter how small it may have been I may have been motivated by pride. I would basically consider them to be works without faith. Remember, there will be plenty of "good" people in Hell.

I think one of the great discussions is on the issue of God's soveriegnty vs man's free will. This usually comes about when discussing predestination but certainly at other times as well. I'm not sure if my finite mind can fully understand how these pieces fit together but both these things are true:
1. God is absolutely soveriegn
2. Man has free will

As long as:
1) God's soveriegn nature includes all of mans free choices.
2) Man's free will is caused.

mont974x4 · Aug 3, 2006

I'm not sure I understand.

Andyman_1970 · Aug 3, 2006

mont974x4 said:
I think that reference in Ezekiel is an exception because of God's grace at that time. Remember there are other references that say the sin of the father will be passed on.

Scripture references please.

mont974x4 said:
We are told in Romans that sin entered the world through one man, Adam, and only one man, Jesus, can restore us to God.

The idea of sin entering the world is not the same as every human afterwards being born guilty of sin.

A Brother In Christ · Aug 3, 2006

eldermike said:
As long as:
1) God's soveriegn nature includes all of mans free choices.
2) Man's free will is caused.

proverbs 16:9

eldermike · Aug 3, 2006

mont974x4 said:
I'm not sure I understand.

Well, if God is sovereign can mans choices, or the outcome of mans choices be unknown to God?

If the answer is no, then:

If our choices are known to God when did He know them?

If before we make them, they are caused.
If after we make them, He's not sovereign.

Andyman_1970 · Aug 3, 2006

eldermike said:
That's correct in describing the action but insufficent to understand the reason.

If the wages of sin is death and all have sinned, and all to come will sin, then all have, and all will die.
Why?

Where does Romans 3:23 say all to come will sin? (if we are still referencing that passage) While I would argue that is a true assumption on your part it is an assuption without Scriptural backing.

To clarify where I'm coming from, all are personally responsible for their sins and no one elses.

We are way off topic now, so I don't want to incure the "wrath" of the topic police.........LOL

eldermike · Aug 3, 2006

A Brother In Christ said:
proverbs 16:9

A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps.

Man heart - enemy of God
man's steps - God is sovereign even over His enemy

Saturday Sabbath??

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