A conversation about unity.

[The Liturgist]

Not at all. I thought @Xeno.of.athens had been condemning the Orthodox already, along with Protestants, for the entire 16 screenfuls of this thread. I now believe I may have misunderstood what he was trying to say. See my post immediately above (#307).

Thank you for clarifying that. I was really perplexed by your apparent hostility towards a fellow liturgical Christian, given your historic friendliness towards all of us, but it is now evident that this was all a great miscommunication.

 

[The Liturgist]

You and I both know most all that @PloverWing does on CF is with best of intentions. You could fairly accuse me of this, but not her. Honestly, I was surprised you asked this. The fact is, the OP made claims and has made claims, and they have not been adequately answered. That's the starting place for this discussion.

There was a miscommunication, and clarity has been restored. I was baffled because it seemed so out of character for everyone involved, and I don’t like to see liturgical Christians quarrel on CF.com particularly given the large number of non-liturgical Christians who seem to wish to challenge us on every aspect of our faith.

Also I have never seen you, @PloverWing or @Xeno.of.athens act with ill-intent, even though the three of us historically have had minor disagreements (for example, I support the Traditional Latin Mass and have been meaning to provide my friend Xeno with an explanation as to why I regard it as superior, and what I feel Vatican II had intended liturgically - the only aspect of Sacrosanctum Concilium that frustrates me is the suppression of Prime due to its historic cultural importance in Western Christianity, for the first book people were taught to read in Latin or in many cases in any language was a Primer, a book containing the First Hour, and of the ancient liturgical rites only the West Syriac lacks it (and the surviving cathedral rite of the East Syriac.*

I think rather they should have combined lauds and matins if they really wanted to reduce the number of offices, since in the Byzantine Rite, Lauds is a subset of Matins consisting of the Kathisma of the Psalter and the Doxology that follow the Canon (a hymn consisting of three to nine Odes, either Biblical Canticles or more commonly, hymns based on those Canticles, unrelated to the Roman Canon, in that it is not a Eucharistic prayer). But that is a minor disagreement, and I am happy to have a 1967 Dominican breviary even though it lacks Prime.


*I should note it is possible the East Syriac monastic rite had it, but it has been defunct since all monasteries of the Assyrian Church of the East closed in the wake of the genocide of Tamerlane in the 12th century, which reduced the Church of the East from being geographically the largest to being limited to the Assyrians of the Fertile Crescent and the Mar Thoma Christians of the Malabar Coast of India, who became isolated and largely estranged from each other. The East Syriac Rite is the only Rite where a Cathedral Rite survived as the main form of the Liturgy of the Hours, celebrating only the offices of Matins, Vespers and Compline.

 

[Strong in Him]

No. I have read the Gospels, but I do not intend to show you where the passages are, do your own research, it's not my job to do it for you.

I've read the Gospels too, and Jesus did not teach that his mother was perfect.

You can show me where this apparent teaching is or not; I really don't care.
I would have thought you would have been eager to do so and to defend your church's teaching. I would have thought you would have produced the verses with a "see, I told you so".
Obviously not.

Of course, you can't prevent me from reaching the conclusion that you can't find them because they're not there.

 

[Hentenza]

Catholic teaching is Christ's teaching so it ought to be clear that Catholic teaching is the norm to which others ought to move.

Nope. There is much error in Catholic teachings.The arrogance continues. No unity here.

 

[ozso]

So... I do think there's enough in Scripture to at least bring people to the table over Mary being our spiritual mother. Rev. 12 and Psalm 2 are pretty neat when read together, and yes, the Woman does seem to be Mary.

Rev. 12:17 says that the "rest of her offspring" are those who keep God's commandments and have the testimony of Christ; in other words, Christians. So, she's Jesus' Mom and our Mom, too. That seems to make Scriptural sense.

If we can just kind of all get there, and agree on that, even if we don't agree on things like her Immaculate Conception, Marian apparitions, or Assumption, at least we can agree that she's our Mom and we owe her some kind of respect, gratitude, and appreciation.

It's not realistic to expect everything to get ironed out 100% down here. But if Protestants, Catholics, and the Orthodox can all agree that she's the "Mother of Christians", that would be a good step.

The woman in Revelation 12 is Israel. Match Rev 12:1 to Joseph's dream in Genesis 37:9. The twelve stars in Rev 12:1 are the 12 tribes of Israel. The Catholic Church's formal teaching and definition of Mary as Queen of Heaven was declared in 1954.

 

[ozso]

The Church teaches:

The first Sacrament, Baptism, is found outside the Catholic Church. This is the first Sacrament and is necessary for salvation.

The Sacrament of The Eucharist is also found outside the Catholic Church, but not in the protestant communities.

The Sacrament of Marriage is also found outside the Catholic Church.

In the end of the day, I guess one can interpret that you needed to be Part of His Body "The Church" in order to be saved.

The seven sacraments of the Catholic Church are:

1. Baptism
2. Confirmation
3. Eucharist
4. Confession
5. Anointing of the Sick
6. Holy Orders
7. Matrimony

According to the RCC the only place the Eucharist is found outside of the RCC, is the Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Assyrian, and Old Catholic Churches. But of course you have to be a member of the Orthodox church through Chrismation.

Obviously a Protestant Christian can not partake in all of those scarcements. So if the ones Protestants can't partake in are the ones required to be under grace, then Protestants are damned according to Catholocism. It would be better for the RCC to just come right out and say that instead of being coy, dancing around the bush, and giving false hope.

 

[caffeinated.hermit]

The woman in Revelation 12 is Israel. Match Rev 12:1 to Joseph's dream in Genesis 37:9. The twelve stars in Rev 12:1 are the 12 tribes of Israel. The Catholic Church's formal teaching and definition of Mary as Queen of Heaven was declared in 1954.

My husband's convinced the Woman is Israel, too.

Mind you, I'm not trying to argue for her Queenship, just that she is our Mother, in some sense.

Yes, there is a lot of other stuff that really can not be clearly pointed to using Scripture alone. True. But if we can at least all agree that, in a sense, Mary's faith and obedience gave birth to our capacity for faith and obedience, that might be a good step forward. Not saying "everybody's gonna get back together", but retaining our unique identities while agreeing on some things, together, is usually a good step towards, at least, better understanding and more fraternity as opposed to hostility.

Again, I hate arguing on the internet, so I'll let this point go. Anyway, take care, Ozso, and I appreciate your posts and thoughts on here.

 

[ozso]

My husband's convinced the Woman is Israel, too.

Mind you, I'm not trying to argue for her Queenship, just that she is our Mother, in some sense.

Yes, there is a lot of other stuff that really can not be clearly pointed to using Scripture alone. True. But if we can at least all agree that, in a sense, Mary's faith and obedience gave birth to our capacity for faith and obedience, that might be a good step forward. Not saying "everybody's gonna get back together", but retaining our unique identities while agreeing on some things, together, is usually a good step towards, at least, better understanding and more fraternity as opposed to hostility.

Again, I hate arguing on the internet, so I'll let this point go. Anyway, take care, Ozso, and I appreciate your posts and thoughts on here.

There's nothing wrong with revering Mary. Up to a certain point.

 

[ozso]

Nope. There is much error in Catholic teachings.The arrogance continues. No unity here.

When you're told that you're unqualified to discuss scripture, theology, doctrine, practices and tradition because your're not a Roman Catholic - unity has been trampled to death.

 

[Hentenza]

There's nothing wrong with revering Mary. Up to a certain point.

Yes and here is the rub. Mary gave birth to our Lord and Savior. Jesus is fully human and fully God but in order to be fully human Mary has to also be fully human. Mary needs to be revered for her obedience and submission to the Lord but in order for her to be human she was born with original sin. In order to be human her human nature is as human as the rest of us.

Most of Mariology is not in scripture and took almost 1900 years to develop.

 

[ozso]

If you dislike the thread then just stop reading it. I like it except for the annoyances in some posts.

Well I really shouldn't post at all since I'm unqualified

 

[ARBITER01]

Catholic teaching is Christ's teaching so it ought to be clear that Catholic teaching is the norm to which others ought to move.

The Jews think the teaching from their Rabbi's is equal to God's also.

Protestants recognize that the writings of our first century Apostles are the earliest and "only" real source of Christian teaching, everything else is just denominational words trying to masquerade as being from The Holy Spirit.

 

[PloverWing]

Protestants recognize that the writings of our first century Apostles are the earliest and "only" real source of Christian teaching, everything else is just denominational words trying to masquerade as being from The Holy Spirit.

I'm going to push back on this a bit. There are Protestants (such as in my own Anglican tradition) who value the development of doctrine through the centuries and who see the Holy Spirit as part of this process.

The writings of the first century Apostles hold a special authority, because they are the closest documents we have to the teachings of Jesus and his immediate followers. But we also value theological ideas that developed later, such as the doctrines of the Incarnation and the Trinity. I do acknowledge that it can be a challenge to discern which ideas are from God, which are from humans, and which are a mix.

So, just a note that there's a lot of variation among Protestants regarding the value of Christian Tradition.

 

[ARBITER01]

I'm going to push back on this a bit. There are Protestants (such as in my own Anglican tradition) who value the development of doctrine through the centuries and who see the Holy Spirit as part of this process.

The writings of the first century Apostles hold a special authority, because they are the closest documents we have to the teachings of Jesus and his immediate followers. But we also value theological ideas that developed later, such as the doctrines of the Incarnation and the Trinity. I do acknowledge that it can be a challenge to discern which ideas are from God, which are from humans, and which are a mix.

So, just a note that there's a lot of variation among Protestants regarding the value of Christian Tradition.

As being from the more "modern" protestant branch, we have our church teaching also, but it never tries to override scripture, nor do we think that the rest of Christianity needs to fall in line and start adhering to it.

 

[concretecamper]

The seven sacraments of the Catholic Church are:

1. Baptism
2. Confirmation
3. Eucharist
4. Confession
5. Anointing of the Sick
6. Holy Orders
7. Matrimony

According to the RCC the only place the Eucharist is found outside of the RCC, is the Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Assyrian, and Old Catholic Churches. But of course you have to be a member of the Orthodox church through Chrismation.

Obviously a Protestant Christian can not partake in all of those scarcements. So if the ones Protestants can't partake in are the ones required to be under grace, then Protestants are damned according to Catholocism. It would be better for the RCC to just come right out and say that instead of being coy, dancing around the bush, and giving false hope.

Below are teachings from Trent, still in force today.

Like I said, after you cut through all the ecumenical dialogue, you can interpret that the Catholic Church teaches that many protestants have a slim chance.

Penance Can 6.

Ifanyone denies that sacramental confession was instituted by divine law or is necessary to salvation;[78] or says that the manner of confessing secretly to a priest alone, which the Catholic Church has always observed from the beginning and still observes, is at variance with the institution and command of Christ and is a human contrivance, let him be anathema.

Baptism Canon 5.

If anyone says that baptism is optional, that is, not necessary for salvation,[13] let him be anathema.

Eucharist Can. 9.

Ifanyone denies that each and all of Christ’s faithful of both sexes are bound, when they have reached the years of discretion, to communicate every year at least at Easter,[50] in accordance with the precept of holy mother Church, let him be anathema.

 

[Strong in Him]

So... I do think there's enough in Scripture to at least bring people to the table over Mary being our spiritual mother.

She's not mine.

God created us and made men and women in his image, Genesis 1:26-27.
ALL things were made through the Word (Jesus), John 1:1-3 - that includes Mary.
God chose to give us birth, James 1:18.
We are born again and become children of God through the Spirit, John 3:3, Romans 8:16-17. We have new life when we are in Jesus, 2 Corinthians 5:17.
All this was happening long before Mary was even thought of. In what sense would she be my spiritual mother?

 

[caffeinated.hermit]

In what sense would [Mary] be my spiritual mother?

Well, again, read Ps. 2 and Rev. 12. Read together, it does seem as though the Woman of Revelation is Mary.

I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

and

And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars... And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne... And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Ok, so... assuming the Woman is Mary (as the Woman gives birth to Christ), this means that the "remnant of Mary's seed" are those who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ (Christians).

Now, you don't have to believe this or see it this way, but I can see a case to be made in Scripture for Mary being the Mother of Christians.

 

[public hermit]

Well, again, read Ps. 2 and Rev. 12. Read together, it does seem as though the Woman of Revelation is Mary.

I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

and

And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars... And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne... And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Ok, so... assuming the Woman is Mary (as the Woman gives birth to Christ), this means that the "remnant of Mary's seed" are those who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ (Christians).

Now, you don't have to believe this or see it this way, but I can see a case to be made in Scripture for Mary being the Mother of Christians.

And also the way she's completely open and obedient- Here I am, let it be according to your word. That's the archetype of faith. Personally, I'm a huge fan of the Theotokos.

 

[Strong in Him]

Well, again, read Ps. 2 and Rev. 12. Read together, it does seem as though the Woman of Revelation is Mary.

Even if she is - and I see that some disagree - that doesn't make her my spiritual mother.

Ok, so... assuming the Woman is Mary (as the Woman gives birth to Christ), this means that the "remnant of Mary's seed" are those who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ (Christians).

I don't know how you come to that conclusion - but everything I said is Scriptural.
God created us, gave us life, gave us new life and made us his children through his Spirit.
This happened to thousands/millions of people before Mary was even born.

Now, you don't have to believe this or see it this way, but I can see a case to be made in Scripture for Mary being the Mother of Christians.

Anyone can make "a case in Scripture" for anything they like - and they do.
A case can be made in Scripture for not eating meat/eating meat, keeping the Jewish law/not keeping it, having believers' baptism/allowing children to be baptised.

Sorry, but two disconnected verses do not constitute a "case in Scripture."
But you are free to believe what you wish.

 

[caffeinated.hermit]

And also the way she's completely open and obedient- Here I am, let it be according to your word. That's the archetype of faith. Personally, I'm a huge fan of the Theotokos.

Right? The Annunciation is one of the coolest things in Scripture, imo. A (roughly) 14-year-old girl says "yes" to giving birth to God with virtually no information to go on. That's incredible. I would never have said "yes" even as an adult; too terrifying.

That makes the strongest case possible that there was something uniquely humble, obedient, willing, and selfless about Mary. And that "yes" made the Incarnation, Crucifixion, and Resurrection possible. Pretty incredible.

Edit To Clarify : I'm not trying to say that Mary is somehow equal to Christ or to any person of the Trinity. Or that she was anything but fully human. Just that there was something unique and singular about her "yes" to God, that made it possible for us to eventually trust in and say "yes" to her Son.