Satan

[dqhall]

Sure, as an agent of G-d it is his duty to try and lead us astray, just as any good District Attorney will try and snare a person in their words or deeds. This is what keeps us having "free will".

*My view follows the Jewish view of HaSatan/Satan which is less of a demi-god view of most Christendom and views HaSatan as an agent of G-d who's purpose is to accuse or tempt us. See the books of Job and Zachariah.

If you think God needs Satan to deceive people, you discredit God by saying Satan is doing God's work. God is true. Remember, "You shall not bear false witness." Exodus 20:16

 

[tampasteve]

If you think God needs Satan to deceive people, you discredit God by saying Satan is doing God's work. God is true. Remember, "You shall not bear false witness." Exodus 20:16

Consider:
Job 1: 6-12: JPS Tanach
6Now it fell upon a day, that the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and aSatan came also among them. 7And the LORD said unto Satan: ‘Whence comest thou?’ Then Satan answered the LORD,

and said: ‘From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.’ 8And the LORD said unto Satan: ‘Hast thou considered My servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a whole-hearted and an upright man, one that feareth God, and shunneth evil?’ 9Then Satan answered the LORD, and said: ‘Doth Job fear God for nought? 10Hast not Thou made a hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath, on every side? Thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions are increased in the land. 11But put forth Thy hand now, and touch all that he hath, surely he will blaspheme Thee to Thy face.’ 12And the LORD said unto Satan: ‘Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thy hand.’ So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.

In my, and most Jewish, reading it is clear that Satan is being allowed and given the authority by G-d to do what takes place in the following verses and chapters. Without His allowance Job would have been left alone. So, G-d clearly has control over Satan at all times should He choose to exercise that control.

Also:
Job 2:10
But he said to her, "You speak as one of the foolish women speaks. Shall we indeed accept good from God and not accept adversity?" In all this Job did not sin with his lips.

Isaiah 45:7
The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the LORD who does all these.

Jeremiah 32:42
"For thus says the LORD, 'Just as I brought all this great disaster on this people, so I am going to bring on them all the good that I am promising them.

 

[CoolDude68]

Now the serpent was more subtle than any other wild creature that the LORD God had made. Gen 3:1a

Satan, apparently, is a clever fellow. Do you suppose sometimes he tricks us into doing his will?

Um, yes. In fact, most of my adult life he's deceived me. He's a real booger isn't he? But, all that is behind me now. Praise God!

 

[dqhall]

Consider:
Job 1: 6-12: JPS Tanach
6Now it fell upon a day, that the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and aSatan came also among them. 7And the LORD said unto Satan: ‘Whence comest thou?’ Then Satan answered the LORD,

and said: ‘From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.’ 8And the LORD said unto Satan: ‘Hast thou considered My servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a whole-hearted and an upright man, one that feareth God, and shunneth evil?’ 9Then Satan answered the LORD, and said: ‘Doth Job fear God for nought? 10Hast not Thou made a hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath, on every side? Thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions are increased in the land. 11But put forth Thy hand now, and touch all that he hath, surely he will blaspheme Thee to Thy face.’ 12And the LORD said unto Satan: ‘Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thy hand.’ So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.

In my, and most Jewish, reading it is clear that Satan is being allowed and given the authority by G-d to do what takes place in the following verses and chapters. Without His allowance Job would have been left alone. So, G-d clearly has control over Satan at all times should He choose to exercise that control.

Also:
Job 2:10
But he said to her, "You speak as one of the foolish women speaks. Shall we indeed accept good from God and not accept adversity?" In all this Job did not sin with his lips.

Isaiah 45:7
The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the LORD who does all these.

Jeremiah 32:42
"For thus says the LORD, 'Just as I brought all this great disaster on this people, so I am going to bring on them all the good that I am promising them.

The Book of Job may have seemed like God was sending Satan to tempt mankind. It was Satan's idea to attack Job. We have more recent scriptures showing Jesus casting out demons and calling for repentance. Jesus did not call for temptation. Sometimes people do not see disasters coming and then try to blame God. If you live in hurricane alley, build a hurricane proof house. Don't blame God for sending all these disasters.

The wicked last for a short time. God will not allow them to torture people forever. God is not in the business of hiring Satan to harass his saints.

 

[tampasteve]

The Book of Job may have seemed like God was sending Satan to tempt mankind. It was Satan's idea to attack Job.

And G-d gave him the authority to proceed, I believe the scripture is rather clear on this. Yes, it was Satan's idea, but just as any District Attorney would do, he petitions the Judge for permission.

We have more recent scriptures showing Jesus casting out demons and calling for repentance. Jesus did not call for temptation.

Jesus/Yeshua sure did cast them out, there is plenty of evidence of Him and other Holy Men doing the same. But that does not mean they operate outside of G-d's will. G-d wants people to repent.

Sometimes people do not see disasters coming and then try to blame God. If you live in hurricane alley, build a hurricane proof house. Don't blame God for sending all these disasters.

Absolutely, I agree. Living in Florida this is particularly pertinent to me.

God is not in the business of hiring Satan to harass his saints.

I think the scripture I posted shows that He is in control of all. If you can post scripture to support your position I would be certainly willing to consider it in light of the other scriptures I have already supplied.

 

[Monk Brendan]

Satan, apparently, is a clever fellow. Do you suppose sometimes he tricks us into doing his will?

YES!

 

[Dawnhammer]

Zen Stories: The Gates of Heaven - ShaoLinEN

 

[dqhall]

I think the scripture I posted shows that He is in control of all. If you can post scripture to support your position I would be certainly willing to consider it in light of the other scriptures I have already supplied.

Man has free will. If you sign a contract, the person you are contracting with cannot go to God to seek performance of the contract. God is omnipotent. Man is not. To say God controls everything, may not mean man's mistakes are God's fault. If a woman commits a crime, her husband is not liable unless he was part of a conspiracy.

Scripture was scribbled by men, it is not 100% divine.

 

[dqhall]

There were problems in the Old Testament, that is why God sent Jesus, to give us a new covenant. Paul wrote about problems with the Torah. We must seek God's grace, not accuse God falsely of all the disasters that occur in the world.

 

[tampasteve]

Man has free will. If you sign a contract, the person you are contracting with cannot go to God to seek performance of the contract. God is omnipotent. Man is not. To say God controls everything, may not mean man's mistakes are God's fault. If a woman commits a crime, her husband is not liable unless he was part of a conspiracy.

Scripture was scribbled by men, it is not 100% divine.

I totally agree with that statement, but I fail to see how it relates to Satan being under His control. Man's free will mean we will make our mistakes and evil doings our own, not His, and not necessarily the work of Satan.

 

[tampasteve]

There were problems in the Old Testament, that is why God sent Jesus, to give us a new covenant. Paul wrote about problems with the Torah. We must seek God's grace, not accuse God falsely of all the disasters that occur in the world.

I do not think I accused G-d of all disasters, rather that He is in ultimate control. The natural world is at work, but ultimately it was G-d who created it and it's functions. I also do not think scripture is 100% divine, but I do believe it is 100% inspired. As such, I still have used scripture to prove my position on Satan in the world, if you can provide scripture that proves your position I really do want to take it into consideration. I strive to see points from both or all sides, so I do not want to necessarily posit my point as the only valid one if there are other scriptural positions I have not considered. But it seems like you are picking what is usable in Torah and throwing out what is against your position by claiming that Paul wrote of "problems with the Torah." When it comes to a discussion on what is valid in Torah vs. something Paul said, generally the Pauline statement is misunderstood as it needs to be interpreted in light of what Paul would have believed, as a observant Jewish man in the 1st century.

But yes, we need to seek G-d's grace in all things, I completely agree.

 

[razzelflabben]

Consider:
Job 1: 6-12: JPS Tanach
6Now it fell upon a day, that the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and aSatan came also among them. 7And the LORD said unto Satan: ‘Whence comest thou?’ Then Satan answered the LORD,

and said: ‘From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.’ 8And the LORD said unto Satan: ‘Hast thou considered My servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a whole-hearted and an upright man, one that feareth God, and shunneth evil?’ 9Then Satan answered the LORD, and said: ‘Doth Job fear God for nought? 10Hast not Thou made a hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath, on every side? Thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions are increased in the land. 11But put forth Thy hand now, and touch all that he hath, surely he will blaspheme Thee to Thy face.’ 12And the LORD said unto Satan: ‘Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thy hand.’ So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.

In my, and most Jewish, reading it is clear that Satan is being allowed and given the authority by G-d to do what takes place in the following verses and chapters. Without His allowance Job would have been left alone. So, G-d clearly has control over Satan at all times should He choose to exercise that control.

Also:
Job 2:10
But he said to her, "You speak as one of the foolish women speaks. Shall we indeed accept good from God and not accept adversity?" In all this Job did not sin with his lips.

Isaiah 45:7
The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the LORD who does all these.

Jeremiah 32:42
"For thus says the LORD, 'Just as I brought all this great disaster on this people, so I am going to bring on them all the good that I am promising them.

Further consider Matthew 4 where God led Jesus into the wilderness to be tempted.

 

[tampasteve]

Further consider Matthew 4 where God led Jesus into the wilderness to be tempted.

Great point, G-d led Yeshua/Jesus into the wilderness to be tempted. Yeshua did not have to go, but as he was 100% sinless and always followed the will of G-d he went, and G-d allowed Satan to tempt Him.

 

[razzelflabben]

Great point, G-d led Yeshua/Jesus into the wilderness to be tempted. Yeshua did not have to go, but as he was 100% sinless and always followed the will of G-d he went, and G-d allowed Satan to tempt Him.

Great point, G-d led Yeshua/Jesus into the wilderness to be tempted. Yeshua did not have to go, but as he was 100% sinless and always followed the will of G-d he went, and G-d allowed Satan to tempt Him.

It is hard for most of us to see God that way because we are taught that when we come to God all our troubles will fade away which simply isn't the case. God is sovereign but within that sovereignty are limits that He Himself places like for example free will. Scripture also says He set things in motion then let's them go, aka storms, quakes, etc. That doesn't mean He never interferes but it means that nothing is outside His sovereign will and purpose for revealing Himself to mankind for the purpose of eternal life in Christ.

 

[1213]

Now the serpent was more subtle than any other wild creature that the LORD God had made. Gen 3:1a

Satan, apparently, is a clever fellow. Do you suppose sometimes he tricks us into doing his will?

Actually, I think he just gives in subtle way us excuses to do the evil things we want to do. Every evil thing people do, they do from their own will.

But the book of Job proves in a way that he is not very clever, because in that story he shows he doesn’t know very much (thinks he knows better than God), and that he is also very evil (tortures others in attempt to prove all-knowing wrong).

 

[dreadnought]

This is the wrong question to ask because it makes us obsess over what Satan is doing instead of meditating on God and his word and what he's done already.

No, I think we need to be aware of what the enemy is up to. Otherwise we are easy prey.

 

[dreadnought]

Actually, I think he just gives in subtle way us excuses to do the evil things we want to do. Every evil thing people do, they do from their own will.

But the book of Job proves in a way that he is not very clever, because in that story he shows he doesn’t know very much (thinks he knows better than God), and that he is also very evil (tortures others in attempt to prove all-knowing wrong).

Genesis warns us that he IS clever. We can't blame our sins on Satan, but he'll do everything he can to entice us into sin, be it immoral sexual lust, substance abuse, pride, or whatever.

 

[Hieronymus]

No, I think we need to be aware of what the enemy is up to. Otherwise we are easy prey.

I agree.
We're supposed to not take part in it, but rather expose it.
However, it can be a little 'too fascinating' sometimes..

 

[dreadnought]

Um, yes. In fact, most of my adult life he's deceived me. He's a real booger isn't he? But, all that is behind me now. Praise God!

Are you sure?

 

[dreadnought]

There were problems in the Old Testament, that is why God sent Jesus, to give us a new covenant. Paul wrote about problems with the Torah. We must seek God's grace, not accuse God falsely of all the disasters that occur in the world.

I think Jesus came to teach us the right way and die for our sins. I don't think God made any mistakes in the Old Testament. And as you said, God isn't responsible for disasters that occur in the world.