SALVATION

[Clare73]

By faith Rahab the prostitute did not perish with those who were disobedient, because she had given a friendly welcome to the spies. 31 It was by faith that Rahab the prostitute was not destroyed with the people in her city who refused to obey God.​

So by her act of "faith" would you consider her faithful action as righteousness being obedient to the prompting of the Holy Spirit or Triune Godhead.

Was Saul righteous?

Holy Spirit righteousness occurs only in those of saving faith.

 

[AbbaLove]

Does faith in God and obedience save?

Go back and read previous posts in this thread. With correct interpretation of scripture and counsel of the Holy Spirit. Then you should know whether your own faith in God and obedience does offer SALVATION..

Are you possibly unsure, thus the reason for starting this thread to glean further Spiritual insight.

If those understandings differ in any way from Eph 2:8-9, they are incorrect; i.e.,"salvation is by grace (of God) through faith, not by (human) works.

That's already been established in your/other posts (human/secular works). So do you believe the parable of the "Good Samaritan" (Luke 10:25-37) is an example of human works the result of one's faith and obedience to God

Note the those differences do not include the meaning of salvation, for on that there can be no difference.

Do you contend that Christian theology threads about one's salvation are based on your interpretation of scripture?

Belief in God and obedience do not save. . .the Jewish Orthodox believe in God and obey the OT and are not saved, because they deny Jesus Christ as the Messiah.

What about Messianic Judaism. CF included this MJ forum because they believe Messianic Jews are Christians.

Rahab was saved if as a proselyte she believed in the promise (Ge 3:5, 15:15, Seed, Jesus Christ, Gal 3:16).

Any more unlikely than the adulterous and murderous King David?

Was Rahab saved?

Isn't that for Christ to determine who is saved

To which part of Calvin's theology are you referring?

There are different streams of Calvanism even among Reform Baptists ...

Reformed Baptists - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Any remaining questions?

First it would be helpful if you could reply to each of the above for further clarification. Then i can reply to clarify any misunderstanding.

 

[Clare73]

Go back and read previous posts in this thread. With correct interpretation of scripture and counsel of the Holy Spirit. Then you should know whether your own faith in God and obedience does offer SALVATION..

Are you possibly unsure, thus the reason for starting this thread to glean further Spiritual insight.

You have me confused with someone else.

 

[fhansen]

Demonstration that Jesus was both man, as well as God. . .textual problem?

No, those verses do not demonstrate that. They appear to demonstrate just the opposite in fact, to support the automatically intuitive human aversion to the idea that a man can be God. We must learn to read between the lines in order to understand how those verses apply. And this is why Arianism could rear its head so easily and pervasively throughout the Christian world for centuries-and still crops up from time to time. The Church had to battle this heresy at council and who knows what the common belief might now be if not for the doctrine of the Trinity being set down as dogma, along with other conciliar rulings on the nature of Christ.

It's not given to, but imputed to.
It is a forensic righteousness (declaration of "not guilty," sentence of acquittal, pronouncement of right standing with God) imputed by faith, just as it was to Abraham (Ge 15:6, Ro 4:1-5).
Actual righteousness is through obedience in the Holy Spirit (Ro 6:16).

Obedience doesn't happen in a vacuum-there must be change, change which is spoken of all through the letter to the Romans, for one. Fallen man is disobedient by nature, so he must be given a new heart, and that change is part and parcel of his new or restored justice/righteousness. Without that, he'd have no reason or means to be obedient-and to overcome the sin that separates him from God. The indwelling of the Holy Spirit is intrinsic to that state of righteousness simply because apart from God man has none, no righteousness, that is-and that's a major part of the new covenant. Man is put in right standing with God by Himself who justifies, makes right, the ungodly.

Yes, right standing with God (sin forgiven, forensic righteousness) is not enough.
One must also have (actual righteousness) obedience to God.

If a man is justified, standing right before God, that certainly should be enough-that's what its all about, after all- saving man from his injustice and its consequences. And this is why the church has understood that justification and sanctification are inseparable, part of a single package. Man cannot be right until he is right, unless he possesses and expresses the actual righteousness that overcomes the sin that otherwise earns him death.

 

[Clare73]

No, those verses do not demonstrate that. They appear to demonstrate just the opposite in fact,

Only when you ignore the basic principle that in order to be correct, their interpretation must agree with the rest of the NT, for God does not contradict himself in his word written.

 

[AbbaLove]

You have me confused with someone else.

That's a cop-out reply when fearful of contradicting yourself.

Only when you ignore the basic principle that in order to be correct, their interpretation must agree with the rest of the NT, for GOD does not contradict Himself in His Word written.

Does His Word written in the NT ever contradict His Word written in the OT. IF so ... WHY?

 

[Clare73]

That's a cop-out reply when fearful of contradicting yourself.

Review the assertion of your post and my reply.

It falls to you to demonstrate any contradiction.

 

[AbbaLove]

Cntradictions exist within Christianity (e.g. Salvation, Sabbath) ...​

"The Pope stands in the place of Jesus Himself as The "Vicar of Christ on earth." He is the head of the Catholic Church and Her nearly 1.3 billion Catholics, and is responsible for the SALVATION of all the Souls throughout the entire world."​

They believe (as history has record) that the RCC did so as a way of distancing Christendom from Judaism. And yet today there are more than a few Christian congregations that recognize Saturday (7th day of the week) as being both the OT & NT Biblical sabbath. However, 1st day Sabbath churches contend that 7th day Christian churches aren't really Christians.

How far the pro-Sunday tendency had gone by the end of the sixth century is shown by a letter of Gregory the Great (pope between 590 and 604), which even forbade bathing on the first day of the week, often called “the day of the (resurrection of the) Lord.” Thus, Saturday Sabbath (7th Day) was abandoned as a day of worship, and Sunday (1st Day) took over (at least partially) as the Christian Sabbath.​

Sunday Sabbath Laws in Ontaario - c. 1911
​

Exodus 20:8-11 (KJV)​

8 Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your male or female servant, nor your animals, nor any foreigner residing in your towns. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.​

​

Deuteronomy 5:12-15 (KJV)​

12 Keep the sabbath day to sanctify it, as the Lord thy God hath commanded thee.​

13 Six days thou shalt labour, and do all thy work:​

14 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, nor thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thine ox, nor thine ass, nor any of thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates; that thy manservant and thy maidservant may rest as well as thou.​

15 And remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and that the Lord thy God brought thee out thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: therefore the Lord thy God commanded thee to keep the sabbath day.​

Two Questions ...​

1. Do you believe Paul's conversion sabbath was at sundown the beginning of the 7th day or at sunrise the beginnng of the 1st day of the week?

2. Do you believe it's important to one's NT SALVATION whether or not the Christian sabbath is on the 7th day (Saturday) or 1st day (Sunday) of the week?

 

[Valletta]

Cntradictions exist within Christianity (e.g. Salvation, Sabbath) ...​

"The Pope stands in the place of Jesus Himself as The "Vicar of Christ on earth." He is the head of the Catholic Church and Her nearly 1.3 billion Catholics, and is responsible for the SALVATION of all the Souls throughout the entire world."​

They believe (as history has record) that the RCC did so as a way of distancing Christendom from Judaism. And yet today there are more than a few Christian congregations that recognize Saturday (7th day of the week) as being both the OT & NT Biblical sabbath. However, 1st day Sabbath churches contend that 7th day Christian churches aren't really Christians.

How far the pro-Sunday tendency had gone by the end of the sixth century is shown by a letter of Gregory the Great (pope between 590 and 604), which even forbade bathing on the first day of the week, often called “the day of the (resurrection of the) Lord.”​

Quite the tales about Catholics. Please produce the aforementioned letter from Gregory the Great.

 

[rturner76]

Do you think this understanding has changed at all today?

For many of the Protestant churches it has. Some of them believe that faith is a one-time statement that covers all of your sins for life with no need for repentance. This is a false doctrine. When the Bible says we are save by grace through faith, often they throw out the "by faith" part and stick with "saved by grace" Grace is provided through faith and that means living faith, not dead faith. If one has dead faith, how can they be given grace if grace is given through faith? Did Christ ever say, "Your dead faith has saved or healed you?"

 

[fhansen]

For many of the Protestant churches it has. Some of them believe that faith is a one-time statement that covers all of your sins for life with no need for repentance. This is a false doctrine. When the Bible says we are save by grace through faith, often they throw out the "by faith" part and stick with "saved by grace" Grace is provided through faith and that means living faith, not dead faith. If one has dead faith, how can they be given grace if grace is given through faith? Did Christ ever say, "Your dead faith has saved or healed you?"

Yes. And it's amazing how easily that false doctrine enters if the role of faith isn't properly understood. Grace/faith are not separable from righteousness, the righteousness that they enable in us. And then we must remain faithful, exercising it as we pick up our cross every day, in order for that life-giving grace to continue to flow.

 

[rturner76]

Yes. And it's amazing how easily that false doctrine enters if the role of faith isn't properly understood. Grace/faith are not separable from righteousness, the righteousness that they enable in us. And then we must remain faithful, exercising it as we pick up our cross every day, in order for that life-giving grace to continue to flow.

Amen!

 

[AbbaLove]

Quite the tales about Catholics. Please produce the aforementioned letter from Gregory the Great.

I'm not a Roman Catholic ... never have been and never will. Would you care to answer eisther of these two Christian questions ...

1. Do you believe the 1st Century Christian sabbath for Jews and non-Jews was on the 7th day or the 1st day of the week?
2. Do you believe it's important to one's SALVATION whether the Christian sabbath is on the 7th day (Saturday) or 1st day (Sunday)?

According to the international standard ISO 8601, Sunday is the seventh day of the week. Most European countries' calendars show Monday as the first day of the week.However, many countries, including the US, Canada, and Japan, consider Sunday as the first day. Clearly shown in the Greek of Matthew 28:1, Mark 16:1-2, Luke 24:1, John 20:1, Acts 20:7, and 1 Corinthians 16:2, all of which speak of a “first day Sabbath.” Indeed, the last passage commands the observance of a “first day Sabbath.”

 

[AbbaLove]

Quite the tales about Catholics. Please produce the aforementioned letter from Gregory the Great.

Was unable to obtain a Latin copy. You can do a google search to read a translation. To what other tale(s) are you referring?

 

[Valletta]

Was unable to obtain a Latin copy. You can do a google search to read a translation. To what other tale(s) are you referring?

How about the title, chapter/page, and actual quotation? Oh, there's the story that Catholics branded Columbus a heretic because he thought the earth was round.

 

[AbbaLove]

Oh, there's the story that Catholics branded Columbus a heretic because he thought the earth was round.

The Libellus responsionum (Latin for "little book of answers")

Which was it number 1. or number 2. ? ?

adjective:​

​

1. having a brand name.​

"cut-rate branded goods"​

2. (of livestock) marked with a branding iron.​

"branded cattle"​

flat earth was a scientific heresay which they later recanted.

 

[Valletta]

The Libellus responsionum (Latin for "little book of answers")

Which was it number 1. or number 2. ? ?

adjective:​

​

1. having a brand name.​

"cut-rate branded goods"​

2. (of livestock) marked with a branding iron.​

"branded cattle"​

flat earth was a scientific heresay which they later recanted.

Obviously, since you provided no title or chapter or quotation, Gregory the Great wrote no such document. And the Greeks discovered the earth was a sphere before Jesus walked on earth, Columbus and the pope were well aware of that fact.

 

[fhansen]

Belief in God and obedience do not save. . .the Jewish Orthodox believe in God and obey the OT and are not saved, because they deny Jesus Christ as the Messiah.

If they don't believe in Jesus as Messiah then they don't really know-and so believe in-God. It's only through Jesus that we truly know God. Faith and obedience are both gifts of grace, with faith necessarily coming first. They are also human choices: gifts can be rejected.

 

[Clare73]

If they don't believe in Jesus as Messiah then they don't really know-and so believe in-God. It's only through Jesus that we truly know God. Faith and obedience are both gifts of grace, with faith necessarily coming first. They are also human choices: gifts can be rejected.

Their belief in God is not a saving belief because they do not obey his command to hear his Son.

 

[Valletta]

Their belief in God is not a saving belief because they do not obey his command to hear his Son.

I bet they don't consider it a matter of obedience.