SALVATION

[fhansen]

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​

No just a read through (in The Bible) it can be seen the word salvation and as to what type of salvation is in view. Depends to the context and how the word salvation is being used in that context.

So receiving God's free gift of Eternal Life salvation only requires and can only be received by belief in Jesus.
Where as a physical salvation from death or harm may require repentance or confessing Christ by the born again believer.

Belief in Jesus means belief in God; it puts us on His side, in alignment and solidarity with Him, where man is meant to be. Again, this union is the basis of true righteousness for man. Just believing in God's existence is pleasing to Him because we're born virtual atheists, at least ignorant of Him.

Anyway, there are some significant differences of viewpoints here and, FWIW, the "original old-time religion" held that man is freely justified as he turns to God, trusting in and putting Him first above all else. Faith is the first step, the first right thing a man can do and, from that place, a place of justice or righteousness in itself, God can do a work in us. In Him, under grace, by the power of the Spirit, man can and must live a godly life, walking in the justice that's been freely given him by virtue of unity with Him. That's how we overcome "spiritual death", with God, no longer on our own, and growing in nearness to Him rather than returning to the world/the flesh- or, if we've fallen away, repenting and turning back to Him with a new change of heart. The new covenant was never intended to serve as a reprieve from man's obligation to be righteous, but rather as the means of achieving that very thing, the right way, God's way, now with Him.

 

[Clare73]

Well, ransom is one theory

< sigh >

Mt 20:28 is not theory, it is God-breathed Scripture (2 Tim 3:16).

 

[fhansen]

< sigh >

Mt 20:28 is not theory, it is God-breathed Scripture (2 Tim 3:16).

All Scripture is God-breathed...while not all understanding of it is likewise inspired. If you wish to build an atonement "non-theory" on one word from one isolated passage that's your option. I'd like to hear it though. If it's like the typical notion, that has satan owning rights to man and God owing satan a ransom, which is paid by Jesus' sacrifice, I hoped you'd have had something better than that one... .

 

[Clare73]

All Scripture is God-breathed...while not all understanding of it is likewise inspired. If you wish to build an atonement "non-theory" on one word from one isolated passage that's your option. I'd like to hear it though. If it's like the typical notion, that has satan owning rights to man and God owing satan a ransom, which is paid by Jesus' sacrifice, I hoped you'd have had something better than that one... .

< sigh >

Have you read 1 Tim 2:6, Heb 9:15 or Isa 53:10?

I'm thinking being more well-informed is necessary for this discussion.

 

[fhansen]

< sigh >

Have you read 1 Tim 2:6, Heb 9:15 or Isa 53:10?

I'm thinking being more well-informed is necessary for this discussion.

Alright, so since it's a non-theory for you then you must understand how it works. Is satan owed something? Or to whom is the ransom paid? What does it mean that Christ gave himself as a ransom and how does this impact the OP to begin with? Are you saying that Christ did not come to bring us the "knowledge of God" (post #19)?

 

[Clare73]

Alright, so since it's a non-theory for you

< sigh >

The word of God (Mt 20:28, 1 Tim 2:6, Heb 9:15 or Isa 53:10) is "theory" for no one.

then you must understand how it works.

Meaning. . .no one else does?

Is satan owed something? Or to whom is the ransom paid?

The ransom is paid to God's justice.

What does it mean that Christ gave himself as a ransom

Christ bought us back (at a high price, 1 Co 6:20, 7:23) from God's condemnation on our sin, by satisfying (paying the debt to) God's required justice for that sin.

 

[fhansen]

The word of God (Mt 20:28, 1 Tim 2:6, Heb 9:15 or Isa 53:10) is "theory" for no one.

And the word of God contains many concepts, sometimes difficult, cryptic, or vague, or simply metaphorical.

The ransom is paid to God's justice.

That is one way the theory has been conceived, while the bible isn’t as explicit as the theorizers are on it-which is why we have a variety of theories. I understand the concept of our owing a debt to God but not so much to anyone owing Him a ransom, as if He’s holding us prisoner.

But I like your understanding as opposed to the classic ransom theory, which is supported by such passages as 2 Tim 2:26 where Paul makes it clear that he believes man is captive to the devil. Anyway, I assumed that's what you meant-sorry- but instead your's resembles the Satisfaction theory pretty closely, with God, rightly offended by sin, needing to have satisfaction met (for our own good) for offenses committed against Him. This isn’t quite consistent with the concept of ransoming captives from the clutches of a captor but it’s somewhat close at least. In any case it involves God taking on and paying Himself for the price we owe for offenses against Him and His justice. We’re set free because the price has been paid.

Now, this relates to the OP because for us it means more than the forgiveness of sin, but, better yet, being set free from sin and its slavery to become slaves to righteousness instead, by the power of God the Holy Spirit who we’re now reconciled to and united with. This righteousness is an essential part of our salvation and, if left out, leaves our understanding of redemption incomplete. Reconciliation between man and God is the basis of our freedom, IOW, free now to become who we were created to be-not sinners.

Now, again, did Jesus not come to reveal God, to bring us the definitive “knowledge of God”?

 

[Clare73]

And the word of God contains many concepts, sometimes difficult, cryptic, or vague, or simply metaphorical.

And it is also in print. . .your point?

That is one way the theory has been conceived, while the bible isn’t as explicit as the theorizers are on it-which is why we have a variety of theories.

Don't know how we got on theories. . .I'm talking Scripture.

I understand the concept of our owing a debt to God but not so much to anyone owing Him a ransom, as if He’s holding us prisoner.

And yet the NT word of God teaches that Christ died as a ransom (Mt 20:28, 1 Tim 2:6, Heb 9:15).
All men are condemned (Ro 5:18).
Christ ransomed us, redeemed us, bought us back (Mt 20:28) from that condemnation by paying our sin debt, satisfying God's justice for us.

But I like your understanding as opposed to the classic ransom theory, which is supported by such passages as 2 Tim 2:26 where Paul makes it clear that he believes man is captive to the devil.

They are under Ham's curse (Ge 9:25), a slave of (or the lowest of) slaves, slaves to him who is but a slave and vassal.

Anyway, I assumed that's what you meant-sorry- but instead your's resembles the Satisfaction theory pretty closely, with God, rightly offended by sin, needing to have satisfaction met (for our own good) for offenses committed against Him. This isn’t quite consistent with the concept of ransoming captives from the clutches of a captor but it’s somewhat close at least. In any case it involves God taking on and paying Himself for the price we owe for offenses against Him and His justice. We’re set free because the price has been paid.

Yes, Christ ransomed us with his life.

Now, this relates to the OP because for us it means more than the forgiveness of sin, but, better yet, being set free from sin and its slavery to become slaves to righteousness instead, by the power of God the Holy Spirit who we’re now reconciled to and united with. This righteousness is an essential part of our salvation and, if left out, leaves our understanding of redemption incomplete. Reconciliation between man and God is the basis of our freedom, IOW, free now to become who we were created to be-not sinners.

Now, again, did Jesus not come to reveal God, to bring us the definitive “knowledge of God”?

Is that in the OP?

Yes, Jesus came to reveal God to us, because he is God.

 

[fhansen]

And it is also in print. . .your point?

And being in print doesn't preserve it from sometimes being "difficult, cryptic, or vague, or simply metaphorical". Understanding and interpretation have to do with knowing what the author intended.

Don't know how we got on theories. . .I'm talking Scripture.

Again, were talking about the meaning of Scripture. There are many varying theories out there about many things in Scripture.

And yet the NT word of God teaches that Christ died as a ransom (Mt 20:28, 1 Tim 2:6, Heb 9:15).
All men are condemned (Ro 5:18).
Christ ransomed us, redeemed us, bought us back (Mt 20:28) from that condemnation by paying our sin debt, satisfying God's justice for us.

Yes, the word ransomed is used. And yet you don't seem to believe, as Paul did, that the devil is our captor.

Is that in the OP?

In post #19 you contested my statement, "Jesus came to bring us the "knowledge of God". You should re-read the posts preceding that one.

Yes, Jesus came to reveal God to us, because he is God.

There you go. And so our faith is in God, the true God, as I've maintained.

Anyway, this discussion about the importance of knowing God is pertinent to the OP but I'd like to keep the thread from being sidetracked into any matters too far afield from the OP.

 

[Clare73]

And being in print doesn't preserve it from sometimes being "difficult, cryptic, or vague, or simply metaphorical". Understanding and interpretation have to do with knowing what the author intended.

That is determined from the rest of Scripture.

Again, were talking about the meaning of Scripture. There are many varying theories out there about many things in Scripture.

Yes, the word ransomed is used. And yet you don't seem to believe, as Paul did, that the devil is our captor.

That is used in the sense of slaves to sin (Jn 8:34, Ro 11:30, Col 3:7, Tit 3:3) due to our fallen nature (Eph 2:2-3), rather than in
the sense of condemnation and damnation by God in the Judgment (Jn 3:18) due to Adam's sin (Ro 5:18),
which is the condemnation for/from which Jesus atoned, redeemed, ransomed us.

Atonement, ransom are about redemption, buying us back at a great price (1 Co 6:20, 7:23) from God's condemnation and judgment,
as distinct from deliverance from the power of sin (Jn 8:34), which follows in the work of the indwelling Holy Spirit in the ransomed, redeemed.

In post #19 you contested my statement, "Jesus came to bring us the "knowledge of God".

That is only half the story, and ineffective without the foundation first, on which it is based; i.e., he "came to give his life as a ransom for many." (Mt 20:28)
It is that "foundation first" on which all else hangs (stands) that I was pointing out.

You should re-read the posts preceding that one.

Four of which are mine. . .

There you go. And so our faith is in God, the true God, as I've maintained.

And now we are back to where we started. . .see post #8.

 

[contratodo]

The ransom is paid to God's justice.

The ransom is paid to who?
To God's justice?
Jesus paid a price so that God won't destroy you, is that the idea you want to convey?

Certainly the devil was not paid anything, that idea puts satan higher than he is.

So let's answer some questions about the ransom with scripture.

Who was the ransom paid to?

You have been bought with a price, therefore glorify God in your body and your spirit which are Gods.
1 Corinthians 6:20


What did Christ do about the devil in relation to the ransom?

I have the keys of death and hades.
Revelation 1:18



The ransom was paid to you and me, we have been bought by the death and resurrection of Christ.

And that He died for all, that they which live should henceforth not live unto themselves,
but unto Him that died for them and rose again.
2 Corinthians 15:5


Concerning the devil, when Christ died He went to hades and He took by force the keys of death and hades.
What does that mean?
It is Christ who decides where anyone goes after they die, not the devil.


Christ purchased you via living perfectly then dying a painful death on a cross and rising again.
Therefore Christ decides where you go when you die.
Therefore one should obey Christ.

And therefore those rejecting Christ will be rejected by Him in the end.

 

[fhansen]

That is determined from the rest of Scripture.

No, that’s one of the methods by which man attempts to unravel the meaning of Scripture. And the results still vary.

That is only half the story, and ineffective without the foundation first, on which it is based; i.e., he "came to give his life as a ransom for many." (Mt 20:28)
It is that "foundation first" on which all else hangs (stands) that I was pointing out.

It’s probably less than half the story, the resurrection, for example, being an essential component as well-it’s a package. And to say that any one of them must come first is…a bit contrived. The fact that Christ died for our sins is revelation anyway, part of the knowledge that we must have as faith comes by hearing.

Four of which are mine. . .

Ok? And …??

And now we are back to where we started. . .see post #8.

What are you saying here? In post #8 you contested my statement that salvation is by faith in God! If interested in following the conversation, and not unnecessarily sidetracking it, it might be helpful to read other posts here as well, such as post #4.

 

[fhansen]

It has changed amongst a lot of people. Especially some of the offshoots of Protestantism.

I’m not always sure that it’s necessarily limited to the offshoots .

 

[AbbaLove]

"No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know Me,
from the least of them to the greatest,”
declares the Lord.

That has yet to occurr for orthodox Jews who still deny Yeshuah (Christ Jesus) as their Messiah.

That last quote is from Jeremiah, 31:34, of course, and marks one of the differences between [both] the old and new covenants.

When do you believe they will "all know Me" (Messiah Yeshuah) for the first time in human history? Is it at His second coming to establish His Reign on earth as King of kings and Lord of lords?

:Rev.elation 22: 12, 20​

12 And, behold, I come quickly; and My reward is with Me, to give every man according as his work shall be.​

20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus..​

The Apostles probably never imagined 2000+ years would elapse before His second coming. Any insight on why you believe over 2,000 years have elapsed?

 

[fhansen]

That has yet to occurr for orthodox Jews who still deny Yeshuah (Christ Jesus) as their Messiah.

Well, yes, that is yet to occur for anyone who hasn’t yet recognized Christ as Lord and turned to Him.

When do you believe they will "all know Me" (Messiah Yeshuah) for the first time in human history? Is it at His second coming to establish His Reign on earth as King of kings and Lord of lords?

I believe the option to know Him has been here ever since He came and revealed Himself at His first advent. All who are willing…can.

The Apostles probably never imagined 2000+ years would elapse before His second coming. Any insight on why you believe over 2,000 years have elapsed?

Well, no man knows the day or hour, of course, and God does things according to His plans, not ours, presumably wanting to maximize the numbers of humans who will come to know and love Him.

 

[AbbaLove]

Well, no man knows the day or hour, of course, and God does things according to His plans, not ours, presumably wanting to maximize the numbers of humans who will come to know and love Him.

Within Messianic Judaism there's a common belief that Christ's Second Coming will occurr during one of the seven Holy Feasts of the Lord. The three major Feasts when every male was to be in Jerusalem were: The Feast of Unleavened Bread (Pesach/Passover), the Feast of Weeks (Shavout/Pentecost), and the Feast of Booths (Sukkoth/Tabernacles). The seven Feasts are referred to in Levitcus as the LORD'S Feasts.

Speak to the Israelites and say to them: `These are My appointed Feasts, the appointed Feasts of the LORD, which you are to proclaim as sacred assemblies. (Levitcus 23:2)​

Another of the seven Feasts of the Lord is the Feast of Rosh Hashanah (the Jewish New Year). It is also known as Yom Teruah or the Day of Trumpets. The word "teruah" means “to shout or make a noise." This Jewish holiday is marked by the blowing of the shofar or ram’s horn in Jewish synagogues around the world. The seeries or distinct trumps is blown 11 times, totaling 99 blasts and the last blast, the 100th blast, is known as Tekiah Gedolah, or the “Last Trump" that occurrs at the 2:10 mark.

For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the Trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. (1 Thessalonians 4:16)​

In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the Last Trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised (1 Thessalonians 4:52).​

It does become rather obvious when ... "no man knows the day or hour"... that it's referring to one of the Lord's Feasts when He will reveal Himself as LORD. Each year the Feast of Trumpets marks the beginning of ten days of consecration and repentance before God.

After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.​

​

 

[Clare73]

The ransom is paid to who?
To God's justice?
Jesus paid a price so that God won't destroy you, is that the idea you want to convey?

The NT teaching is that Jesus paid the debt (punishment) for our sin,
paid the ransom to buy us back from God's condemnation (Ro 5:18) on that sin.
All those who do not believe in and trust on the person and work of Jesus Christ for the remission of their sin are condemned (Jn 3:18).

The ransom was paid to you and me, we have been bought by the death and resurrection of Christ.

You don't understand the meaning of "ransom," nor the NT teaching of the condemnation of all mankind (Ro 5:18).

The gospel is the "good news" about the bad news.
You don't understand the bad news; i.e., all mankind is condemned (Ro 5:18).

 

[Clare73]

No, that’s one of the methods by which man attempts to unravel the meaning of Scripture. And the results still vary.

If you don't understand that all Scripture agrees with itself, then you are free to distort the Scriptures (2 Tim 3:16).

 

[fhansen]

If you don't understand that all Scripture agrees with itself, then you are free to distort the Scriptures (2 Tim 3:16).

Anyone is free to distort Scripture, regardless of methodology used. Scripture has unity due to the unity, at least when it comes to those things pertaining to man's salvation, of God's plan. But to think that any one form of exegesis, or all of them combined, will necessarily lead to an ironclad, definitive, and full understanding of the faith is to refuse to open one's eyes to the obvious truth. Apart from the historic understanding of the ancient church, error is bound to enter.

 

[AbbaLove]

The gospel is the "good news" about the bad news.

Are you implying that the "bad news" is the "Mosaic Law" given to Moses by the Lord God (John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God")

Definitions of Mosaic law. noun. the laws (beginning with the Ten Commandments) that God1 gave to the Israelites through Moses; it includes many rules of religious observance given in the Torah (first five books of the Old Testament)​

Do you really think Moses or the Lord God considered it "bad news"? Did the Apostle Paul really consider the first 5 books of the Hebrew Torah to be "bad news" ?

You don't understand the bad news; i.e., all mankind is condemned (Ro 5:18).

Jesus as an equal member of the Trinity is therefore God Himself. So one can contend that the LORD (Jesus) gave the 10 commandments to Moses up to 1400 years before He was born.

"The LORD spoke to Moses face to face, as a man speaks to his friend" (Exodus 33:11)​

Your use of "bad news" is typical of Christian RT (structural supercessionism) ... Supersessionism - Wikipedia