Salvation: Theosis, Assurance of Salvation, Once Saved Always Saved, Predestination?

MarkRohfrietsch

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I would agree with this. I am curious though about how this relates to Sola Fide? When someone who has had authentic faith in Christ doesn't feel sorrow over their sins and turns away from Christ, how does Sola Fide come into play? Is their faith lost?

On the same line of thought, if someone knowingly and willingly avoids some of the commands of God, including Baptism and the Eucharist, and doesn't sorrow over it, do they lose their authentic faith? How does Sola Fide come into play with willful disobedience? One of the key elements there is willingly and knowingly.

Honest question. Sometimes I wonder if some of the differences (albeit not all) are linguistic differences. Hopefully this can clarify that :)

ETA: I'm not saying God will necessarily deny salvation to those who aren't baptized or partaking of the Eucharist, but we are commanded to do so. It isn't just a nicety (sp?). I'm glad we don't decide who or who won't be saved!


Starting at the bottom; yes, we are commanded to do so...but if, for what ever reason we do not or can not, God's mercy knows no bounds. Unlike the reformed protestants, we do not limit His grace only to Scripture and faith; God is omnicient, and can extend grace however He chooses to do so. Sola Fide is the base of all; for without faith, we have no hope; but, like the devil, we know God, but chose to defy Him at every turn, we are also without hope; we just don't realize it.

If someone truly has faith, that faith is reflected in not only their confession of faith, but in the fruit that they bear. St James wrights about faith without works being dead; such is indeed the case.
 
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All4Christ

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Starting at the bottom; yes, we are commanded to do so...but if, for what ever reason we do not or can not, God's mercy knows no bounds. Unlike the reformed protestants, we do not limit His grace only to Scripture and faith; God is omnicient, and can extend grace however He chooses to do so. Sola Fide is the base of all; for without faith, we have no hope; but, like the devil, we know God, but chose to defy Him at every turn, we are also without hope; we just don't realize it.

If someone truly has faith, that faith is reflected in not only their confession of faith, but in the fruit that they bear. St James wrights about faith without works being dead; such is indeed the case.

I tend to agree with the concept behind this post, though we don't adhere to Sola Fide. Certainly God's mercy knows no bounds, and can extend grace however He chooses. I agree 100% with that.

A side note: Do confessional Lutherans believe baptism is regenerative? What is the role of baptism in salvation and / or rebirth in your tradition?

"...without faith, we have no hope; but, like the devil, we know God, but chose to defy Him at every turn, we are also without hope; we just don't realize it.

If someone truly has faith, that faith is reflected in not only their confession of faith, but in the fruit that they bear. St James wrights about faith without works being dead; such is indeed the case."

I agree with this as well.
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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Baptism is indeed regenerative; from the small Catechism:


IV. The Sacrament of Holy Baptism


As the head of the family should teach it in a simple way to his household.

First.

What is Baptism?

--Answer.

Baptism is not simple water only, but it is the water comprehended in God's command and connected with God's Word.

Which is that word of God?--Answer.

Christ, our Lord, says in the last chapter of Matthew: Go ye into all the world and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.

Secondly.

What does Baptism give or profit?

--Answer.

It works forgiveness of sins, delivers from death and the devil, and gives eternal salvation to all who believe this, as the words and promises of God declare.

Which are such words and promises of God? Answer.

Christ, our Lord, says in the last chapter of Mark: He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Thirdly.

How can water do such great things?

--Answer.

It is not the water indeed that does them, but the word of God which is in and with the water, and faith, which trusts such word of God in the water. For without the word of God the water is simple water and no baptism. But with the word of God it is a baptism, that is, a gracious water of life and a washing of regeneration in the Holy Ghost, as St. Paul says, Titus, chapter three: By the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Ghost, which He shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ, our Savior, that, being justified by His grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. This is a faithful saying.


Fourthly.
What does such baptizing with water signify?

--Answer.

It signifies that the old Adam in us should, by daily contrition and repentance, be drowned and die with all sins and evil lusts, and, again, a new man daily come forth and arise; who shall live before God in righteousness and purity forever.

Where is this written?--Answer.

St. Paul says Romans, chapter 6: We are buried with Christ by Baptism into death, that, like as He was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.​


Quite brief, but sums it up quite well. For more depth; from The Large Catechism: http://www.bookofconcord.org/lc-6-baptism.php
 
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Basil the Great

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I guess I am a rare exception for a Protestant, as I believe that good works play a very important part in determining our salvation, especially when it comes to how we treat the poor and less fortunate. I take this belief not from the letters of Paul, but from the teachings of Jesus. Having said this, I feel that salvation is to a great extent a mystery. Only God knows the fate of each soul. We know that faith is very important and we know the commandments, but we cannot be certain about the fate of any soul, including our own.
 
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cordie

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I find that there are as many interpretations as there are denominations. If the work was not accomplished on the cross in the first place, then it does not paint an omnipotent picture of Christ. None of us our perfect & honestly as an ex-Catholic I found that most of the sermonizing was about fear & sin rather than a positive message. If you have to walk around in fear all the time, you're going to end up in a mental hospital. That's not good. Everything is just theory.
 
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hedrick

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I guess I am a rare exception for a Protestant, as I believe that good works play a very important part in determining our salvation, especially when it comes to how we treat the poor and less fortunate. I take this belief not from the letters of Paul, but from the teachings of Jesus. Having said this, I feel that salvation is to a great extent a mystery. Only God knows the fate of each soul. We know that faith is very important and we know the commandments, but we cannot be certain about the fate of any soul, including our own.
I sympathize, but it doesn’t seem to match Jesus’ approach. Jesus used “saved” and “salvation” in two ways, both to refer to someone being saved now and to salvation at the end.

But one of the two characteristic uses is Luke 19:9. When Zacchaeus repents, Jesus said “salvation has come to this house, because he too is a son of Abraham.” He doesn’t say that salvation might come if he persists in doing good.

Jesus’ teachings as a whole see people as followers or not followers. Sure, it’s possible for someone to give up following Jesus. But in general I think Jesus portrays salvation as something that comes when you follow him, that isn’t mysterious or uncertain. He talks plenty about judgement, emphasizing that those who follow him are going to be held accountable for how they live. But I don’t think that’s intended to undo the basic concept that repenting and following Jesus is a definitive decision, which is normally permanent.

This is Jesus’ equivalent of justification by faith. For Paul, the key characterization of being a Christian is “faith.” For Jesus, it’s being a follower. I assume that these are basically the same thing. So justification by faith says that we are accepted by God simply because we’re Jesus’ followers. Once that’s the case, we are then responsible for obeying him, as Jesus himself makes clear.

But as Paul points out, the new man is us coexists with the old. So even sin doesn’t remove us from God, as long as we are repentance and forgive others.
 
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mark46

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Agreed. I honestly don't see the LWF and Orthodox Church near reconciliation, especially with some of the things Mark mentioned. I referenced the paper as a possible way to explain the various positions.

There have been many dialogues. Most seem to judge them, curiously IMHO, with regard to whether reconciliation and joining of the church bodies involved were the goals. I see them as much different. I see them as opportunities to understand one another. Roman Catholics, Anglicans, Lutherans (WFL) and Orthodox have had these discussions over the decades. Many of what we think as unalterable differences turn out not to be so important. (I guess I left out "Evangelicals and Catholics Together" in which evangelicals and Catholics prayed together and produced a couple of joint documents with regard to commonalities and differences in understanding).

After all, in the end, we must decide whether to accept that the Spirit speaks to other Christian churches to which we do not belong. Some would simply say that they know that the Spirit speaks to their Church, and may or may not speak to others. If we accept that the Spirit speaks to church bodies to which we do NOT belong, this should have serious consequences with regard to our actions and respect towards one another.

To be clear, even if there were no dogmatic differences, that would NOT mean that the churches would join. I am old enough to recall those of the various Christian bodies who considered those of other bodies to be non-Christians. I still hear it some, but much less.
 
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I think it's an important point to say that - from the Orthodox point of view - we don't judge the salvation of persons. Not those within the Orthodox Church, and not those without.

With the exception - that is what a canonized Saint actually is ... a person who has demonstrated evidence that they died being pleasing to the Lord. And we have very, very few of those, compared to all the Orthodox who have ever died. We never judge anyone who is still living, because who knows how they might finish their life?

But judgement is always, always in the hands of Christ. Our concern is to maintain the faith as it was handed down to us from the Apostles, without change or compromise. It has nothing to do with declaring the salvation or condemnation of anyone.
 
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inquiring mind

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God is God… and man is man. We are sinners and our salvation is accepting Jesus with a humble and repenting heart. I was baptized, and I think you should be if possible (you should want it), but as others here have pointed out, it doesn’t appear an absolute requirement. If we are sincere (the key), the way is made for us, and even though we stumble and fall at times He will always be there to pick us up. We need to pray for understanding of what He does reveal to us, as well as the courage to act on it. Beyond that it’s just our varying opinions and ideas.

We are set apart as Christians for a purpose God has and it could even be several years down the road. In this sense I agree with what someone here also said about our salvation being a process, but it’s God’s process for us.

If you are saved you know it, more importantly you feel it. If you are truly saved you are always saved. At times during your life you may jump over the fence and dance, but you will hang-on to the fence and not let go. More than that, He will hang-on to you and pull you back.

Predestination exists from God’s viewpoint, but not ours.
 
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~Anastasia~

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God is God… and man is man. We are sinners and our salvation is accepting Jesus with a humble and repenting heart. I was baptized, and I think you should be if possible (you should want it), but as others here have pointed out, it doesn’t appear an absolute requirement. If we are sincere (the key), the way is made for us, and even though we stumble and fall at times He will always be there to pick us up. We need to pray for understanding of what He does reveal to us, as well as the courage to act on it. Beyond that it’s just our varying opinions and ideas.

We are set apart as Christians for a purpose God has and it could even be several years down the road. In this sense I agree with what someone here also said about our salvation being a process, but it’s God’s process for us.

If you are saved you know it, more importantly you feel it. If you are truly saved you are always saved. At times during your life you may jump over the fence and dance, but you will hang-on to the fence and not let go. More than that, He will hang-on to you and pull you back.

Predestination exists from God’s viewpoint, but not ours.

Forgive me please, but being as this is in Traditional Theology and your tag is Baptist, I wanted to ask ...

Does this mean that the Baptists teach that baptism is optional, that one can simply decide not to be baptized, but be sincere otherwise? Just curious.

When I was Baptist, it wasn't seen as an option.

By the way, I can't go back and re-read the entire thread, but since it IS titled to be about Theosis, and you began with "God is God, and man is man" I want to point out that we absolutely agree. Man, a created being, will NEVER become what God Is in His Essence. We will forever be creatures. But it is God's plan that we be restored to His image AND likeness, and grow in that, so that we become like Christ in every way, except His Divinity. Just wanted to clear that up, in case there has been any misunderstanding. People often hear a concise description of theosis like what St. Athanasius is often quoted as saying ... "The Som of God became man so that man might become god" and he is echoing St. Irenaeus and St. Clement in this (bishops of the first couple of centuries). It is directly alluded to in Scripture as well (2 Cor 3:17-18 is direct, but many others speak of overcoming, becoming joint heirs with Christ, and so on - it also makes sense of Ps. 82:6 and Christ's words in John 10:33-36). But the key understanding is that we become LIKE Christ - both in (eventual) sinlessness AND in becoming no longer subject to death. Also, that "we become by grace what God is by nature" ... He simply IS these things, but we become so only through His work in us and with His help.

Just wanted to make it very clear that we do not blur the distinction between God and man.
 
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There are so many independent Baptists, not hierarchical as let’s say Methodist for example (as you well know), that I would not venture to speak for the broad body. But as you say, I’m confident that most doctrines would stipulate a believer’s baptism. I myself was baptized and believe you should be if possible, but was only commenting from personal deliberation, regarding the repentant thief on the cross, that it apparently is not an absolute requirement. I hear you regarding your view about the distinction between God and man.
 
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There are so many independent Baptists, not hierarchical as let’s say Methodist for example (as you well know), that I would not venture to speak for the broad body. But as you say, I’m confident that most doctrines would stipulate a believer’s baptism. I myself was baptized and believe you should be if possible, but was only commenting from personal deliberation, regarding the repentant thief on the cross, that it apparently is not an absolute requirement. I hear you regarding your view about the distinction between God and man.

Thank you for your reply. Indeed, it's probably not possible to pin down all Baptists as agreeing on very many doctrines. But I thought perhaps the necessity of baptism would be one of them, though I realize it's seen as an ordinance, generally.

I should clarify, perhaps. Orthodox view baptism as a regenerating Sacrament (something that God actually gives grace through), and we would say it is necessary, and the means of entrance into the Body. But ... that doesn't mean (to us) that God can't save a person without it (the thief on the cross perhaps ... though in a very real sense he was baptized into death right along with Christ). While we do believe it is a means of God's grace for salvation, we would never limit the ability of God to save anyone. I suppose I would say it is necessary from our point of view, but not essential from God's point of view.

Thank you again for the reply.
 
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NeoScholasticism

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I recently came across "THEOSIS" from a friend my met on this forum. Which I never heard that term before; "THEOSIS". And I have been studying it lastly to get a good understanding of it. As I have been studying it, I have come to some conclusions, that it sounds very close to Sanctification, and perseverance of the Saints and Union with Christ. But before I post my findings I want to do more homework.

ladodgers6,

I thought I should mention that "theosis" or "deification" is something rather unique to the soteriological systems of Eastern/Oriental Orthodoxy and Catholicism. Granted the specifics of the term differ -- the prior developing specifically in the context of mysticism and asceticism, while the latter developing specifically in the context of medieval scholasticism. I am no expert in Eastern Orthodoxy, so I will refrain from commenting, but I will give you a quick overview from the perspective of the medieval schools, in the case that you would like a bit more information.

Theosis, as it is used in the east, is a broad term which overlaps two concepts in Catholic thought. The first is sanctification, as you have noticed, and the second is supernatural beatitude. Sanctification, as it is used in Catholic thought itself captures two concepts. The first is the restoration of human nature from the effects of original sin, thus make man just in the sight of God where he was unjust and guilty of eternal punishment. The second is the elevation of human nature, making man directed to a supernatural end or purpose, namely supernatural beatitude, which is otherwise proper to God alone. Supernatural beatitude involves, of course, the contemplation of God by the blessed, but it is a contemplation of Him which is naturally proper to Himself alone. Consider I Corinthians 13:12: At present I know partially; then I shall know fully, as I am fully known (NAB). So, the saints see God even as fully as He sees them. But only God can naturally see Himself fully. So it is proportionate to God alone to possess supernatural beatitude. But for the saints to see God as He sees Himself entails that they are supernaturally transformed by some gift to be capable of such a thing, since God has promised such a vision. Such a gift we call supernatural grace, and it makes the recipient like God, because it elevates him to supernatural beatitude. But finally, grace flowers into glory, and it is the vision of God, or supernatural beatitude, which finally makes the saints like Him in a more conclusive way. This is the mysterious, supernatural 'expansion' of human nature to see God. Though the saints are not divine, they become "divinized", in that they participate in God's life. As St. Peter writes:

His divine power has bestowed on us everything that makes for life and devotion, through knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and power. Through these, he has bestowed on us the precious and very great promises, so that through them you may come to share in the divine nature, after escaping from the corruption that is in the world because of evil desire (II Peter 1:3-4, NAB).

Now to make sense of all this.

First is the distinction between what is natural and what is supernatural to human nature. That which is natural in this context pertains strictly to the nature of man, considered in itself. Of the natural, we can consider means and ends. Natural means are those which can be attained by human nature, at least indirectly. For example, we consider water, food, reproduction, natural virtue, etc. to be natural means. Means, of course, are always directed towards an end in some way. Food and water for nourishment, reproduction for the further propagation of humanity, etc. We could consider these various ends to be intermediate ends, for even these are done for specific purposes. Eventually (although I will not argue it here), these ends terminate in a final end, or purpose, of man's life. Natural means, considered strictly by themselves are directed only towards an end for which they are proportionate. Thus, natural means, all things being equal, are directed towards a proportionate natural, final end. The scholastics, along with Aristotle, would call this natural happiness, or natural contemplation, which is looking at God indirectly as supreme Creator and Lord by knowing him through creatures. (For further reading on this, look at Aristotle's Nicomachean Ethics; Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica, Prima Secunda Partis, Q. 1-5; Austin Fagothey, S.J., Right and Reason: Ethics in Theory and Practice.)

However, the scholastics did not think man even in the garden had a natural end, but a supernatural end, because of God's grace.

Of the supernatural, there are two distinctions: the relatively supernatural, or the preternatural; and the absolutely supernatural, or the divine. The relatively supernatural refers to that which is created but nevertheless above the nature of man, i.e. angelic. Thus, the scholastics spoke of the preternatural gifts given to Adam and Eve in the garden, namely immortality, infused knowledge, and integrity (immediate subservience of all the faculties to reason, which in our case included the passions), for they are properly natural to angelic nature, not to human nature. Thus they are supernatural, but only relatively so. The absolutely supernatural speaks of what is proper to the divine nature alone, namely, the Trinitarian life, supernatural grace, and the heavenly bliss promised in the Gospel, etc. (For more on this topic, listen to the following lecture by Dr. Lawrence Feingold -- and this would be the resource to look at if nothing else I recommend. It is a very fine presentation.)

The scholastics thought that, if Adam and Eve had not received sanctifying grace in Eden -- elevating them to be ordered towards an absolutely supernatural end -- they would only have the natural end of contemplation of God through creatures, which Aristotle talks about. This is because they were not due a supernatural end at all; it was disproportionate to their nature; God did not have to give them the grace of supernatural beatitude as their end. But He did, and "lifted" them up, from the very first moment of their creation, from a merely natural end, to a supernatural end. So they received sanctifying grace, which ordered them towards the sight of God as He sees Himself. Of course they lost the means to that end, but they did not lose the election to the end itself, which they passed along to all of us. So we too are elected to this end, our sorry state notwithstanding. But if that is the case, we not only need to be restoratively justified so as to be absolved of the guilt of original sin, but elevated by sanctifying grace back up on trajectory to this supernatural goal that we were given in Adam, in the beginning. The goal, then, is divinization, or supernatural beatitude, but it does not merely mean justification or even sanctification. It also means being 'expanded' or opened up at our death, when the journey is over, to seeing God as He sees Himself. This 'expansion' or 'opening up' is divinization, or supernatural beatitude. It is in every way a gift beyond what eye has seen, ear has heard, etc.

Divinization or supernatural beatitude, then, is the Gospel as the Catholic Church understands it, and the above is essentially how the medieval Church would have presented it. There is a strongly similar presentation in the Eastern Church, at least on the bottom line. But the consensus is that beatitude is not just an Edenic paradise on steroids; it is something altogether infinitely above that, which is why the news is so good, over and above the mere forgiveness of the penalty of sin.

(For free, online, further reading, see Catechism of the Catholic Church, nos. 1699-1729; Man: Called to Share in the Divine Life, lecture series, L. Feingold. For further academic reading, see The Natural Desire to See God According to St. Thomas and His Interpreters, L. Feingold; Nature and Grace, M. Scheeben; Nature and Grace: A New Approach to Thomistic Ressourcement, A. Swafford; Natura Pura, S. Long; Beatitude, R. Garrigou-Lagrange)
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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ladodgers6,

I thought I should mention that "theosis" or "deification" is something rather unique to the soteriological systems of Eastern/Oriental Orthodoxy and Catholicism. Granted the specifics of the term differ -- the prior developing specifically in the context of mysticism and asceticism, while the latter developing specifically in the context of medieval scholasticism. I am no expert in Eastern Orthodoxy, so I will refrain from commenting, but I will give you a quick overview from the perspective of the medieval schools, in the case that you would like a bit more information.

Theosis, as it is used in the east, is a broad term which overlaps two concepts in Catholic thought. The first is sanctification, as you have noticed, and the second is supernatural beatitude. Sanctification, as it is used in Catholic thought itself captures two concepts. The first is the restoration of human nature from the effects of original sin, thus make man just in the sight of God where he was unjust and guilty of eternal punishment. The second is the elevation of human nature, making man directed to a supernatural end or purpose, namely supernatural beatitude, which is otherwise proper to God alone. Supernatural beatitude involves, of course, the contemplation of God by the blessed, but it is a contemplation of Him which is naturally proper to Himself alone. Consider I Corinthians 13:12: At present I know partially; then I shall know fully, as I am fully known (NAB). So, the saints see God even as fully as He sees them. But only God can naturally see Himself fully. So it is proportionate to God alone to possess supernatural beatitude. But for the saints to see God as He sees Himself entails that they are supernaturally transformed by some gift to be capable of such a thing, since God has promised such a vision. Such a gift we call supernatural grace, and it makes the recipient like God, because it elevates him to supernatural beatitude. But finally, grace flowers into glory, and it is the vision of God, or supernatural beatitude, which finally makes the saints like Him in a more conclusive way. This is the mysterious, supernatural 'expansion' of human nature to see God. Though the saints are not divine, they become "divinized", in that they participate in God's life. As St. Peter writes:

His divine power has bestowed on us everything that makes for life and devotion, through knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and power. Through these, he has bestowed on us the precious and very great promises, so that through them you may come to share in the divine nature, after escaping from the corruption that is in the world because of evil desire (II Peter 1:3-4, NAB).

Now to make sense of all this.

First is the distinction between what is natural and what is supernatural to human nature. That which is natural in this context pertains strictly to the nature of man, considered in itself. Of the natural, we can consider means and ends. Natural means are those which can be attained by human nature, at least indirectly. For example, we consider water, food, reproduction, natural virtue, etc. to be natural means. Means, of course, are always directed towards an end in some way. Food and water for nourishment, reproduction for the further propagation of humanity, etc. We could consider these various ends to be intermediate ends, for even these are done for specific purposes. Eventually (although I will not argue it here), these ends terminate in a final end, or purpose, of man's life. Natural means, considered strictly by themselves are directed only towards an end for which they are proportionate. Thus, natural means, all things being equal, are directed towards a proportionate natural, final end. The scholastics, along with Aristotle, would call this natural happiness, or natural contemplation, which is looking at God indirectly as supreme Creator and Lord by knowing him through creatures. (For further reading on this, look at Aristotle's Nicomachean Ethics; Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica, Prima Secunda Partis, Q. 1-5; Austin Fagothey, S.J., Right and Reason: Ethics in Theory and Practice.)

However, the scholastics did not think man even in the garden had a natural end, but a supernatural end, because of God's grace.

Of the supernatural, there are two distinctions: the relatively supernatural, or the preternatural; and the absolutely supernatural, or the divine. The relatively supernatural refers to that which is created but nevertheless above the nature of man, i.e. angelic. Thus, the scholastics spoke of the preternatural gifts given to Adam and Eve in the garden, namely immortality, infused knowledge, and integrity (immediate subservience of all the faculties to reason, which in our case included the passions), for they are properly natural to angelic nature, not to human nature. Thus they are supernatural, but only relatively so. The absolutely supernatural speaks of what is proper to the divine nature alone, namely, the Trinitarian life, supernatural grace, and the heavenly bliss promised in the Gospel, etc. (For more on this topic, listen to the following lecture by Dr. Lawrence Feingold -- and this would be the resource to look at if nothing else I recommend. It is a very fine presentation.)

The scholastics thought that, if Adam and Eve had not received sanctifying grace in Eden -- elevating them to be ordered towards an absolutely supernatural end -- they would only have the natural end of contemplation of God through creatures, which Aristotle talks about. This is because they were not due a supernatural end at all; it was disproportionate to their nature; God did not have to give them the grace of supernatural beatitude as their end. But He did, and "lifted" them up, from the very first moment of their creation, from a merely natural end, to a supernatural end. So they received sanctifying grace, which ordered them towards the sight of God as He sees Himself. Of course they lost the means to that end, but they did not lose the election to the end itself, which they passed along to all of us. So we too are elected to this end, our sorry state notwithstanding. But if that is the case, we not only need to be restoratively justified so as to be absolved of the guilt of original sin, but elevated by sanctifying grace back up on trajectory to this supernatural goal that we were given in Adam, in the beginning. The goal, then, is divinization, or supernatural beatitude, but it does not merely mean justification or even sanctification. It also means being 'expanded' or opened up at our death, when the journey is over, to seeing God as He sees Himself. This 'expansion' or 'opening up' is divinization, or supernatural beatitude. It is in every way a gift beyond what eye has seen, ear has heard, etc.

Divinization or supernatural beatitude, then, is the Gospel as the Catholic Church understands it, and the above is essentially how the medieval Church would have presented it. There is a strongly similar presentation in the Eastern Church, at least on the bottom line. But the consensus is that beatitude is not just an Edenic paradise on steroids; it is something altogether infinitely above that, which is why the news is so good, over and above the mere forgiveness of the penalty of sin.

(For free, online, further reading, see Catechism of the Catholic Church, nos. 1699-1729; Man: Called to Share in the Divine Life, lecture series, L. Feingold. For further academic reading, see The Natural Desire to See God According to St. Thomas and His Interpreters, L. Feingold; Nature and Grace, M. Scheeben; Nature and Grace: A New Approach to Thomistic Ressourcement, A. Swafford; Natura Pura, S. Long; Beatitude, R. Garrigou-Lagrange)

In Lutheranism we would steer away from the term "dieification"; but again different words often are used to express similar concepts. For us, the term "Sanctification" as opposed to "Justification" is use.
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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I find that there are as many interpretations as there are denominations. If the work was not accomplished on the cross in the first place, then it does not paint an omnipotent picture of Christ. None of us our perfect & honestly as an ex-Catholic I found that most of the sermonizing was about fear & sin rather than a positive message. If you have to walk around in fear all the time, you're going to end up in a mental hospital. That's not good. Everything is just theory.

The law still needs to be taught, because without the Law, one does not need the Gospel. The law still serves as a guide to those under the Gospel.
 
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In Lutheranism we would steer away from the term "dieification"; but again different words often are used to express similar concepts. For us, the term "Sanctification" as opposed to "Justification" is use.

Indeed, proper understanding the word in its associated context is critical!
 
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In Lutheranism we would steer away from the term "dieification"; but again different words often are used to express similar concepts. For us, the term "Sanctification" as opposed to "Justification" is use.

That's interesting; I didn't know that. How is sanctification in that sense possible in Lutheran soteriology without (1) infused grace and (2) a supernatural end? I'm still learning much about all this.
 
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Thank you for your reply. Indeed, it's probably not possible to pin down all Baptists as agreeing on very many doctrines. But I thought perhaps the necessity of baptism would be one of them, though I realize it's seen as an ordinance, generally.

I should clarify, perhaps. Orthodox view baptism as a regenerating Sacrament (something that God actually gives grace through), and we would say it is necessary, and the means of entrance into the Body. But ... that doesn't mean (to us) that God can't save a person without it (the thief on the cross perhaps ... though in a very real sense he was baptized into death right along with Christ). While we do believe it is a means of God's grace for salvation, we would never limit the ability of God to save anyone. I suppose I would say it is necessary from our point of view, but not essential from God's point of view.

Thank you again for the reply.

Anastasia, I think this site pretty well answers your question.
Baptists’ Two Ordinances: Baptism and the Lord’s Supper
 
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ToBeLoved

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I believe what the Bible has to say about salvation.
  1. "...repent and believe the gospel." Mark 1:15
  2. "...whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life." John 3:16
  3. Romans 10:9-10: 9) If you openly declare that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10) For it is by believing in your heart that you are made right with God, and it is by openly declaring your faith that you are saved.
Faith is essential (Ephesians 2:8) and God gives everyone a measure of faith (Romans 12:3). Baptism, by immersion, is an act of obedience (Matthew 28:19) whereby we publicly identify with Jesus Christ (Romans 6:3-5) but it is not a requirement of salvation. Salvation is by faith, not by faith and something that we do (Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 3:28-30). The only 'work' of salvation is to believe in Jesus (John 6:29).
I agree with what is written above.

Adding for additional clarity:

That once saved by grace that we cannot loose our salvation because Jesus Christ and His shed blood purchased us for a tremendous price. That it is His finished work on the cross only that saves us through His grace and sacrifice that He made for us that we accept through our faith in Him. The price Christ paid randsoms us from spiritual death and separation from God to spiritual life in Christ.

Justification that we are given the righteousness of Christ and only because of His giving us His righteousness are we eternally righteous, not because of any righteousness or good in us that would signify any righteousness on it's own.

Sanctification is the process of our becoming more like Christ, not through any good or good works of our own, but only through the gifts that Christ has given us and through the indwelling Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit who prays for us when we know not what to pray for, convicts us of our sin unto repentance, leads us in all Truth and is our seal of the promise of the New Covenant. The Holy Spirit that has been given to us by Christ as a seal of His promise and to the redemption of His Beloved Children who are co-heirs with Christ to the Father.

Baptism in water, not absolutely necessary for salvation, per the thief on the cross w/ Jesus but commanded of us to do and done in obedience to God and His Commands.

Rewards are given in heaven for deeds deemed worthy by Christ by fire in obedience to God's commands and commandments, as in the Bible.

Sola Scriptura
 
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Anastasia, I think this site pretty well answers your question.
Baptists’ Two Ordinances: Baptism and the Lord’s Supper

Thank you.

I am rather interested that the term "Sacrament" is rejected by Baptists on the particular grounds that they (baptism and communion) are not considered NECESSARY for salvation.

Orthodox would not say they are NECESSARY to the point that God cannot save without them. However, we call them Sacraments not because of that, but because we believe that God truly imparts grace through them.

We have a number of Sacraments (actually - we DON'T "limit, number, and define" them in the way Catholics do), but the others are not considered essential for salvation either - things like absolution, anointing for healing (Holy Unction), marriage, ordination, etc. - but we believe that God is present in all of these and grace is given through them.

I was interested to see that the site quotes that baptism is the normal means of entry into the body of Christ, and is a pre-requisite for receiving Communion, because that is what I remember from my Baptist days and that is also what Orthodoxy teaches.

Thank you again. I don't wish to derail this thread, but I appreciate the opportunity to compare notes.
 
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