Salvation: Theosis, Assurance of Salvation, Once Saved Always Saved, Predestination?

~Anastasia~

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Thank you for explaining this.

I had wondered a bit at the Catholic interpretation.

I'm not sure I'm entirely comfortable saying that Orthodoxy is essentially similar, but I don't know that I'm qualified to discuss it on the level that you are doing.

I'm just a bit uncomfortable with the emphasis on contemplation, and some of the philosophical aspects you describe.

Very simply, we would say that human nature has been infected with sin, and God desires to heal us of that, restore us not only to the state in which man was originally created, but yes, having grown more fully into His image AND likeness.

However, it is the grace of God which we experience, and we will never share in His Divine Essence, nor fully comprehend it.

Essentially, yes, the process involves what Protestants usually refer to as sanctification, which is the stage Orthodox refer to as purification (for us, this is the first of three stages). So putting aside the old man is part of it. And the end result is fellowship with God and Christ-like-ness.

But much of what you describe, I would not expect to hear in those terms from an Orthodox person.

Not being argumentative, I just wanted to point that out since you brought up Orthodoxy. :)

God be with you. :)

ladodgers6,

I thought I should mention that "theosis" or "deification" is something rather unique to the soteriological systems of Eastern/Oriental Orthodoxy and Catholicism. Granted the specifics of the term differ -- the prior developing specifically in the context of mysticism and asceticism, while the latter developing specifically in the context of medieval scholasticism. I am no expert in Eastern Orthodoxy, so I will refrain from commenting, but I will give you a quick overview from the perspective of the medieval schools, in the case that you would like a bit more information.

Theosis, as it is used in the east, is a broad term which overlaps two concepts in Catholic thought. The first is sanctification, as you have noticed, and the second is supernatural beatitude. Sanctification, as it is used in Catholic thought itself captures two concepts. The first is the restoration of human nature from the effects of original sin, thus make man just in the sight of God where he was unjust and guilty of eternal punishment. The second is the elevation of human nature, making man directed to a supernatural end or purpose, namely supernatural beatitude, which is otherwise proper to God alone. Supernatural beatitude involves, of course, the contemplation of God by the blessed, but it is a contemplation of Him which is naturally proper to Himself alone. Consider I Corinthians 13:12: At present I know partially; then I shall know fully, as I am fully known (NAB). So, the saints see God even as fully as He sees them. But only God can naturally see Himself fully. So it is proportionate to God alone to possess supernatural beatitude. But for the saints to see God as He sees Himself entails that they are supernaturally transformed by some gift to be capable of such a thing, since God has promised such a vision. Such a gift we call supernatural grace, and it makes the recipient like God, because it elevates him to supernatural beatitude. But finally, grace flowers into glory, and it is the vision of God, or supernatural beatitude, which finally makes the saints like Him in a more conclusive way. This is the mysterious, supernatural 'expansion' of human nature to see God. Though the saints are not divine, they become "divinized", in that they participate in God's life. As St. Peter writes:

His divine power has bestowed on us everything that makes for life and devotion, through knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and power. Through these, he has bestowed on us the precious and very great promises, so that through them you may come to share in the divine nature, after escaping from the corruption that is in the world because of evil desire (II Peter 1:3-4, NAB).

Now to make sense of all this.

First is the distinction between what is natural and what is supernatural to human nature. That which is natural in this context pertains strictly to the nature of man, considered in itself. Of the natural, we can consider means and ends. Natural means are those which can be attained by human nature, at least indirectly. For example, we consider water, food, reproduction, natural virtue, etc. to be natural means. Means, of course, are always directed towards an end in some way. Food and water for nourishment, reproduction for the further propagation of humanity, etc. We could consider these various ends to be intermediate ends, for even these are done for specific purposes. Eventually (although I will not argue it here), these ends terminate in a final end, or purpose, of man's life. Natural means, considered strictly by themselves are directed only towards an end for which they are proportionate. Thus, natural means, all things being equal, are directed towards a proportionate natural, final end. The scholastics, along with Aristotle, would call this natural happiness, or natural contemplation, which is looking at God indirectly as supreme Creator and Lord by knowing him through creatures. (For further reading on this, look at Aristotle's Nicomachean Ethics; Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica, Prima Secunda Partis, Q. 1-5; Austin Fagothey, S.J., Right and Reason: Ethics in Theory and Practice.)

However, the scholastics did not think man even in the garden had a natural end, but a supernatural end, because of God's grace.

Of the supernatural, there are two distinctions: the relatively supernatural, or the preternatural; and the absolutely supernatural, or the divine. The relatively supernatural refers to that which is created but nevertheless above the nature of man, i.e. angelic. Thus, the scholastics spoke of the preternatural gifts given to Adam and Eve in the garden, namely immortality, infused knowledge, and integrity (immediate subservience of all the faculties to reason, which in our case included the passions), for they are properly natural to angelic nature, not to human nature. Thus they are supernatural, but only relatively so. The absolutely supernatural speaks of what is proper to the divine nature alone, namely, the Trinitarian life, supernatural grace, and the heavenly bliss promised in the Gospel, etc. (For more on this topic, listen to the following lecture by Dr. Lawrence Feingold -- and this would be the resource to look at if nothing else I recommend. It is a very fine presentation.)

The scholastics thought that, if Adam and Eve had not received sanctifying grace in Eden -- elevating them to be ordered towards an absolutely supernatural end -- they would only have the natural end of contemplation of God through creatures, which Aristotle talks about. This is because they were not due a supernatural end at all; it was disproportionate to their nature; God did not have to give them the grace of supernatural beatitude as their end. But He did, and "lifted" them up, from the very first moment of their creation, from a merely natural end, to a supernatural end. So they received sanctifying grace, which ordered them towards the sight of God as He sees Himself. Of course they lost the means to that end, but they did not lose the election to the end itself, which they passed along to all of us. So we too are elected to this end, our sorry state notwithstanding. But if that is the case, we not only need to be restoratively justified so as to be absolved of the guilt of original sin, but elevated by sanctifying grace back up on trajectory to this supernatural goal that we were given in Adam, in the beginning. The goal, then, is divinization, or supernatural beatitude, but it does not merely mean justification or even sanctification. It also means being 'expanded' or opened up at our death, when the journey is over, to seeing God as He sees Himself. This 'expansion' or 'opening up' is divinization, or supernatural beatitude. It is in every way a gift beyond what eye has seen, ear has heard, etc.

Divinization or supernatural beatitude, then, is the Gospel as the Catholic Church understands it, and the above is essentially how the medieval Church would have presented it. There is a strongly similar presentation in the Eastern Church, at least on the bottom line. But the consensus is that beatitude is not just an Edenic paradise on steroids; it is something altogether infinitely above that, which is why the news is so good, over and above the mere forgiveness of the penalty of sin.

(For free, online, further reading, see Catechism of the Catholic Church, nos. 1699-1729; Man: Called to Share in the Divine Life, lecture series, L. Feingold. For further academic reading, see The Natural Desire to See God According to St. Thomas and His Interpreters, L. Feingold; Nature and Grace, M. Scheeben; Nature and Grace: A New Approach to Thomistic Ressourcement, A. Swafford; Natura Pura, S. Long; Beatitude, R. Garrigou-Lagrange)
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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Thank you.

I am rather interested that the term "Sacrament" is rejected by Baptists on the particular grounds that they (baptism and communion) are not considered NECESSARY for salvation.

Orthodox would not say they are NECESSARY to the point that God cannot save without them. However, we call them Sacraments not because of that, but because we believe that God truly imparts grace through them.

We have a number of Sacraments (actually - we DON'T "limit, number, and define" them in the way Catholics do), but the others are not considered essential for salvation either - things like absolution, anointing for healing (Holy Unction), marriage, ordination, etc. - but we believe that God is present in all of these and grace is given through them.

I was interested to see that the site quotes that baptism is the normal means of entry into the body of Christ, and is a pre-requisite for receiving Communion, because that is what I remember from my Baptist days and that is also what Orthodoxy teaches.

Thank you again. I don't wish to derail this thread, but I appreciate the opportunity to compare notes.

In so many ways, Confessional Lutherans and they Orthodox seem often to be on the same page. One place where we differ is that we have an even tighter definition of what constitutes a Sacrament: It is commanded by God (Jesus Christ); it contains a physical element(s); it conveys grace through the forgiveness of sins, and it is all about what God does for us and not what we do for God. So, depending on how tightly one holds this definition we would call Baptism the Eucharist and in the Augsburg Confession, Confession and Absolution. The remaining 4 defined by the CC as Sacraments we consider "Sacramental Acts".

Not necessary, but when they are freely given by God, why would we reject or limit God's grace? I don't know, but I need all the grace I can get!:)
 
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~Anastasia~

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In so many ways, Confessional Lutherans and they Orthodox seem often to be on the same page. One place where we differ is that we have an even tighter definition of what constitutes a Sacrament: It is commanded by God (Jesus Christ); it contains a physical element(s); it conveys grace through the forgiveness of sins, and it is all about what God does for us and not what we do for God. So, depending on how tightly one holds this definition we would call Baptism the Eucharist and in the Augsburg Confession, Confession and Absolution. The remaining 4 defined by the CC as Sacraments we consider "Sacramental Acts".

I'm curious, what is the physical component of Confession and Absolution? I have some guesses, but I'm not familiar with Lutheran practice.

Not necessary, but when they are freely given by God, why would we reject or limit God's grace? I don't know, but I need all the grace I can get!:)

Amen to that!
 
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FireDragon76

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One thing that distinguishes Lutherans from Eastern Orthodox (my previous church) - Lutherans emphasize personal assurance much moreso. Sanctification also does not have the same emphasis as the Reformed churches: we are really all about justification by faith alone.

I do think there is an element of theosis in Lutheranism, though that word is never really used, the concept of divinization is there. Particularly the doctrine of the genus majesticum- human nature participating by grace in Christ's divinity. Since Lutherans are much more like Catholics and Orthodox in emphasizing metaphysics and sacramental realism, I don't think this is surprising.
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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I'm curious, what is the physical component of Confession and Absolution? I have some guesses, but I'm not familiar with Lutheran practice.



Amen to that!
The laying on of hands.:)

Unfortunately, in most cases in the CC, when done through a screen, instead of face to face with one's confessor, the laying on of hands does not take place... but neither does it in the corporate confession in the regular order of service; there is however, provision for such in the more formal service of Confession and Absolution.
 
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~Anastasia~

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The laying on of hands.:)

Unfortunately, in most cases in the CC, when done through a screen, instead of face to face with one's confessor, the laying on of hands does not take place... but neither does it in the corporate confession in the regular order of service; there is however, provision for such in the more formal service of Confession and Absolution.
Ok, then I guessed correctly.

In the Orthodox Church, the priest also puts his hands on the penitent's head in the prayers for absolution, and the epitrachion (sp?) as well. Actually it's more the epitrachion that is noticeable. Which I think in part is a symbol of the priest bearing the flock, and their sins being a part of that.

I'm going to have to do some more reading about sacramentalism some day. But it's really surprising to me how just a bit of supplementary instruction along with the symbolism that permeates the Church are able to give a good sense of so many things.

Thank you for the reply, Mark. :)
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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Ok, then I guessed correctly.

In the Orthodox Church, the priest also puts his hands on the penitent's head in the prayers for absolution, and the epitrachion (sp?) as well. Actually it's more the epitrachion that is noticeable. Which I think in part is a symbol of the priest bearing the flock, and their sins being a part of that.

I'm going to have to do some more reading about sacramentalism some day. But it's really surprising to me how just a bit of supplementary instruction along with the symbolism that permeates the Church are able to give a good sense of so many things.

Thank you for the reply, Mark. :)
You are welcome, and thanks for your post! Again, much in common.:oldthumbsup:
 
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Kenny'sID

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Some would say, I and others proclaim a "works based" salvation but that almost always bends it out of proportion and makes it seem like something it is definitely is not. I know no one who depends on just works. Works are part of it, but it also includes faith. So it should be described as a Works/Faith based salvation.

Why that? because the Bible can't make it any clearer, "faith without works is dead"...faith/works, and obedience of course, get the job done. Pretty much undeniable as far as I can see, unless one ignores that scripture flat out. As to the obedience, I would think most would just know that, but evidently some think it's not a necessity.
 
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ladodgers6

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What is your perspective of salvation as a Traditional Christian? Most of us believe baptism and faith to be essential. A confession of faith is important as well. Yet, even among Traditional Christians, there are many perspectives on how we are saved. I'm interested in comparing and contrasting our beliefs on the subject.
I like this post, because we are getting to crucial central Doctrines of Redemption. I will love to share the Reformed position. Because I have recently started doing my homework on "THEOSIS". I have encountered different views from advocates within the EOC, which we also have struggled with too. So I am looking for clarification from you. And I will do the same. Because I have seen people caricature Calvinism intention, and others in ignorance. Truth is all I seek.

Among Orthodox Christians, we often say that we have been saved, we are being saved, and God willing, should we not fall away from the faith, we will be saved when we finish the good race. We believe an essential part of salvation is the transformation of our life to unify with God and become more like Him. This is somewhat similar to how I viewed sanctification before I became Orthodox. I didn't believe in Once Saved Always Saved, so it was somewhat similar in that we could be "saved", yet not be "saved" when we leave this world if we do not follow Christ to the end.

I agree on some of this, like sanctification being necessary for our salvation. Reformed Evangelicalism teaches and believes that good works are necessary and part of the Believer's life for Salvation. These works of the Believer is the Result of being saved. We are transformed from Loving darkness to Loving the Light! From condemnation to Justification! From sinner to Saint! From slave to Heir! What I am getting at, is that by presenting Sanctification to people as 'How one GETS saved' is misleading. Why? because as SINNERS before a Holy, Holy, Holy Righteous Judge we stand condemned. We need to be made right with God, first. The continuing spread of Pentecostalism and the growth of the charismatic movement have meant more concentration on doctrines of sanctification (becoming holy oneself) than on the doctrines of Justification (how God accepts a sinner). In other words, we need to preach the Gospel that Paul to all, that God Justifies the UNGODLY. Not the GODLY, for what do the GODLY need Redemption? By Christ Alone we are saved. He is my Savior, Redeemer, Lord! Christ is who saves us, not anything we do before or after our conversion in the Gospel. If I sounded harsh please forgive me. But I just wanted to point out the obvious points that were missed, because they are huge.
Could you explain your tradition's view on salvation, including concepts like theosis (if you believe in that), sanctification, justification, assurance of salvation, or predestination? We all have similarities, and certainly we have differences. Many differences may be due to differences in terminology, so I'm curious to understand your perspectives.

Please remember the Statement of Purpose. This is meant to be a topical discussion on Traditional Christianity, not an attack on other traditions' beliefs.

Please let me know if I crossed the line with my comments. I am not here to insult or be unkind. I only want to discuss and review these crucial points from both sides. And I request if we can ask some tough questions so that I can get the answers I seek, from the source 'you', instead of from a bias group?
 
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All4Christ

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I like this post, because we are getting to crucial central Doctrines of Redemption. I will love to share the Reformed position. Because I have recently started doing my homework on "THEOSIS". I have encountered different views from advocates within the EOC, which we also have struggled with too. So I am looking for clarification from you. And I will do the same. Because I have seen people caricature Calvinism intention, and others in ignorance. Truth is all I seek.



I agree on some of this, like sanctification being necessary for our salvation. Reformed Evangelicalism teaches and believes that good works are necessary and part of the Believer's life for Salvation. These works of the Believer is the Result of being saved. We are transformed from Loving darkness to Loving the Light! From condemnation to Justification! From sinner to Saint! From slave to Heir! What I am getting at, is that by presenting Sanctification to people as 'How one GETS saved' is misleading. Why? because as SINNERS before a Holy, Holy, Holy Righteous Judge we stand condemned. We need to be made right with God, first. The continuing spread of Pentecostalism and the growth of the charismatic movement have meant more concentration on doctrines of sanctification (becoming holy oneself) than on the doctrines of Justification (how God accepts a sinner). In other words, we need to preach the Gospel that Paul to all, that God Justifies the UNGODLY. Not the GODLY, for what do the GODLY need Redemption? By Christ Alone we are saved. He is my Savior, Redeemer, Lord! Christ is who saves us, not anything we do before or after our conversion in the Gospel. If I sounded harsh please forgive me. But I just wanted to point out the obvious points that were missed, because they are huge.


Please let me know if I crossed the line with my comments. I am not here to insult or be unkind. I only want to discuss and review these crucial points from both sides. And I request if we can ask some tough questions so that I can get the answers I seek, from the source 'you', instead of from a bias group?
Thank you for your post. :) I'd be happy to talk more about this with you, and would enjoy exchanging ideas, beliefs and clarification. I have to get ready for work, so I can't respond in full right now, but I wanted to let you know that I will soon!
 
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ladodgers6

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Welcome to Traditional Theology! I am very short on time right now, but I wanted to quickly clarify that while we don't have the same understanding of Original Sin, we do believe there is judgment of sins, though it admittedly is different than many other Christians' beliefs. I'm hoping @~Anastasia~ or Anhelyna can explain our view more? Otherwise, I will explain when I get home :) Once again, I apologize for the brevity...we are on a family trip and everyone is waiting!

ETA: Apparently I missed Anastasia's response :)

I would love to read your position Original Sin. So that I got it from the source, and not a bias stand. I have a question in regards to the Doctrine of Justification: Being declared righteous by the imputed righteousness of Christ and received through Faith Alone! Because in the material I have read on EOC, there is no teaching per se on "Justification", is that a fair assessment? If not, please by all means explain it.
 
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mark kennedy

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Baptism is necessary, but not absolutely necessary; faith is. In Ephesians 2:8-9 we read: "8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast."

We are predestined for salvation since creation. We are all God's children, and He is our Father, and He desires our devotion, obedience and love; yet like the Prodigal Son, free will and the stain of original sin cause us to rebel. It i by our willfulness that we can only turn against God. It is by the leading of the Holy Spirit that we overcome this willfulness and are lead to faith. Martin Luther explains this in his explanation of the third article of the Apostles Creed:
The Third Article.

Of Sanctification.

I believe in the Holy Ghost; one holy (Christian) catholic Church, the communion of saints; the forgiveness of sins; the resurrection of the body; and the life everlasting. Amen.

What does this mean?--Answer.

I believe that I cannot by my own reason or strength believe in Jesus Christ, my Lord, or come to Him; but the Holy Ghost has called me by the Gospel, enlightened me with His gifts, sanctified and kept me in the true faith; even as He calls, gathers, enlightens, and sanctifies the whole Christian Church on earth, and keeps it with Jesus Christ in the one true faith; in which Christian Church He forgives daily and richly all sins to me and all believers, and at the last day will raise up me and all the dead, and will give to me and to all believers in Christ everlasting life. This is most certainly true.
I think the Great Commission in the closing verses of Matthew is a commandment to disciple makers. Its a commitment of ministers guide the converted to spiritual maturity, ultimately equiping them for the work of the ministry. We talk a lot of being saved fron sin and should, but identifying with the death, burial and resurrection is to walk in newness of life. The church is a living body of believers and we do good to emphasis this point.
 
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