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Featured Salvation for the Dead

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by notforgotten, Jun 26, 2017.

  1. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Then why post it here? Are there some special people who are permitted to understand your "personal revelation?"
     
  2. chevyontheriver

    chevyontheriver Well-Known Member Supporter

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    No. Some Catholics here just don't accept Catholic teaching. Imagine that.
     
  3. notforgotten

    notforgotten Child of God Supporter

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    Jesus holds the keys of death and Hades. It is through Christ that the Christian can open death's door and save their fallen friends and loved ones.

    Revelations 1:18. I am the Living One; I was dead, and now look, I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.
     
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  4. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    The problem here is this proof text does not say what you think it does. I don't know what version you are quoting but in the KJV and the pre-Christian Septuagint [LXXl it is past tense, already done, not something future.
    KJV Zechariah 9:11
    (11) As for thee also, by the blood of thy covenant I have sent forth thy prisoners out of the pit wherein is no water.
    LXX Zech 9:11
    (11) And thou by the blood of thy covenant has sent forth thy prisoners out of the pit that has no water.
    This is a common practice with all heterodox religious groups. Anybody can prove almost anything by quoting selective verses out-of-context and/or finding a Bible "version" which supports their false beliefs.

     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2017
  5. RayJeena

    RayJeena Humble and proud of it. Supporter

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    Any concept can be a moneymaker if manipulated a certain way. However, that doesn’t mean that the concept itself is necessarily flawed.

    Being the member of a particular denomination doesn’t make one a robot. There are those who think for themselves on some things.

    Pope John Paul II spoke many times about that which he once went as far as calling “the invincible guarantee of universal salvation”.

    Does Christ save or doesn’t he? We can’t have it both ways.

    ... followed by...

    Isn't that a link to fallible man's interpretation of scripture?


    -
     
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  6. notforgotten

    notforgotten Child of God Supporter

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    Indeed, you read "credible sources", as pleases you. But you fail to search scripture with your heart. Of which, I believe God desires most.
     
  7. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    You do not know whether I search scripture or not. Please confine your responses to what is posted in accordance with forum rules.
     
  8. notforgotten

    notforgotten Child of God Supporter

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    You're all about punishment. Fortunately, this is not of Christ. And the dead can truly be saved and share in the love God has for us.
     
  9. notforgotten

    notforgotten Child of God Supporter

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    What of this verse?

    Zechariah 9:11. As for you, because of the blood of my covenant with you, I will free your prisoners from the waterless pit.

    If there is no salvation for the dead?
     
  10. notforgotten

    notforgotten Child of God Supporter

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    You do not know the full extent of God's love.

    Romans 3:23. For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

    Even in sight of God's love, have we all fallen short.
     
  11. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Jesus taught,
    • “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:Matthew 25:41
    • "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
    • "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mark 9:43-48"
    • "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
    • “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.Matthew 18:6
    • “And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.Matthew 7:23
    • “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. Matthew 26:24
    In Matt 13:50 and 26:24 Jesus refers to a punishment worse than death.
     
  12. notforgotten

    notforgotten Child of God Supporter

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    Correction: "some" of it's teachings. And, so it is with all of the churches.
     
  13. notforgotten

    notforgotten Child of God Supporter

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    Have you forgotten one basis characteristic of God, That "He goes unchanging"?
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2017
  14. Christodoulos

    Christodoulos Member

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    Excuse me for not being as sharp as you, but can you please tell me where does it say anywhere here that this is a reference to hell? The Hebrew literally reads "As for thee also, because of the blood of thy covenant I send forth thy prisoners out of the pit wherein is no water." The Bible describes the eternal destiny for the unsaved lost, as a "lake of fire", and nowhere as a "pit without water"? You keep on misusing this verse, and I wondered why?
     
  15. RayJeena

    RayJeena Humble and proud of it. Supporter

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    Wouldn't a lake of fire be devoid of water?
     
  16. Episaw

    Episaw Always learning

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    That is what a false spirit wants you to believe. And I notice that you have chosen a likeness of Jesus for your avatar. That speaks volumes.
     
  17. Christodoulos

    Christodoulos Member

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    This is from some of the best commentaries on this verse, where is there any reference to the afterlife?

    Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown

    "I have sent forth thy prisoners out of the pit wherein is no water. Dungeons were often pits without water, miry at the bottom, such as Jeremiah sunk in when confined (Gen_27:24; Jer_38:6). This image is employed of the misery of the Jewish exiles in Egypt, Greece, etc., under the successors of Alexander, especially under Antiochus Epiphanes, who robbed and profaned the temple, slew thousands, and enslaved more. In Zechariah's times, the time of the Persian rule, the practice was common to remove conquered peoples to distant lands, in order to prevent the liability to revolt in their own lands. Josephus ('Antiquities,' 12: 2, sec. 5) states that the Persians carried away Jews into Egypt; and Ochus (according to Syncellus) transplanted large numbers from Palestine to the East and North. God delivered them from Antiochus by the Maccabees. A type of the future deliverance from their last great persecutor (Isa_51:14; Isa_61:1 )."

    Keil and Delitzsch Old Testament Commentary

    "Israel's Redemption from Captivity, and Victory over the Heathen. - Zec 9:11. "Thou also, for the sake of thy covenant blood, I release thy captives out of the pit wherein there is no water. Zec 9:12. Return to the fortress, ye prisoners of hope. Even to-day I proclaim: Double will I repay to thee." This is addressed to the daughter Zion, i.e., to all Israel, consisting of Ephraim and Judah. We not only learn this from the context, since both of them are spoken of before (Zec 9:10) and afterwards (Zec 9:13); but it is also obvious from the expression bedam berthekh, since the covenant blood belonged to all Israel of the twelve tribes (Ex 24:8). גםאת stands at the head absolutely, on account of the emphasis lying upon the את . But as the following clause, instead of being directly attached to את , is so constructed that the pronoun את is continued with suffixes, the question arises, to what the גם is to be taken as referring, or which is the antithesis indicated by גם . The answer may easily be obtained if we only make it clear to ourselves which of the two words, with the second pers. suffix, forms the object of the assertion made in the entire clause. This is not בדםבריתך , but אסיריך : thou also (= thee) - namely, thy prisoners - I release. But the emphasis intended by the position in which גםאת is placed does not rest upon the prisoners of Israel in contrast with any other prisoners, but in contrast with the Israel in Jerusalem, the daughter Zion, to which the King is coming. Now, although גם actually belongs to אסיריך , it refers primarily to the את to which it is attached, and this only receives its more precise definition afterwards in אסיריך . And the allusion intended by גם is simply somewhat obscured by the fact, that before the statement to which it gives emphasis בדםבריתך is inserted, in order from the very first to give a firm pledge of the promise to the people, by declaring the motive which induced God to make this fresh manifestation of grace to Israel. This motive also acted as a further reason for placing the pronoun את at the head absolutely, and shows that את is to be taken as an address, as for example in Ge 49:8. בדםבריתך : literally, being in thy covenant blood, because sprinkled therewith, the process by which Israel was expiated and received into covenant with God (Ex 24:8). "The covenant blood, which still separates the church and the world from one another, was therefore a certain pledge to the covenant nation of deliverance out of all trouble, so long, that is to say, as it did not render the promise nugatory by wickedly violating the conditions imposed by God" (Hengstenberg). The new matter introduced by גםאת in Zec 9:11 is therefore the following: The pardon of Israel will not merely consist in the fact that Jehovah will send the promised King to the daughter Zion; but He will also redeem such members of His nation as shall be still in captivity out of their affliction. The perfect shillacht? is prophetic. Delivering them out of a pit without water is a figure denoting their liberation out of the bondage of exile. This is represented with an evident allusion to the history of Joseph in Ge 37:22, as lying in a pit wherein there is no water, such as were used as prisons (cf. Jer 38:6). Out of such a pit the captive could not escape, and would inevitably perish if he were not drawn out. The opposite of the pit is בצרון , a place cut off, i.e., fortified, not the steep height, although fortified towns were generally built upon heights. The prisoners are to return where they will be secured against their enemies; compare Ps 40:3, where the rock is opposed to the miry pit, as being a place upon which it is possible to stand firmly. "Prisoners of hope" is an epithet applied to the Israelites, because they possess in their covenant blood a hope of redemption. גםהיום , also to-day, i.e., even to-day or still to-day, "notwithstanding all threatening circumstances" (Ewald, Hengstenberg). I repay thee double, i.e., according to Isa 61:7, a double measure of glory in the place of the sufferings."

    Albert Barnes' Notes on the Bible

    "As for thee also - The prophet turns from the deliverance of the whole world to the former people, the sorrows which they should have in the way, and the protection which God would bestow upon them for the sake of Him, who, according to the flesh, was to be born of them. "Thou too;" he had spoken of the glories of the Church, such as her king, when He should come, should extend it, embracing earth's remotest bounds: he turns to her, Israel after the flesh, and assures her of the continued protection of God, even in her lowest estate. The deliverance under the Maccabees was, as those under the judges had been, an image of the salvation of Christ and a preparation for it. They were martyrs for the One God and for the faith in the Resurrection, and, whether by doing or by suffering, preserved the sacred line, until Christ should come.

    By the blood of thy covenant - Osorius: "Not by the blood of those victims of old, but by the blood of thy covenant, wilt thou be united to the empire of Christ, and so obtain salvation. As the Lord Himself says, This is the blood of covenant, which is shed for you." "The gifts and calling of God are without repentance" Ro 11:29. That symbolic blood, by which, fore-signifying the New Covenant, He made them His own people, "Behold the blood of the covenant, which the Lord hath made with you concerning all these words," Ex 24:8, endured still, amid all their unfaithfulness and breaches of it. By virtue of it God would send forth her imprisoned ones "out of the" deep, dry "pit," "the dungeon" wherein they could be kept securely, because life was not threatened (as in Ge 37:24). Out of any depth of hopeless misery, in which they seemed to be shut up, God would deliver them; as David says, "He brought me up also out of a horrible pit, out of the miry clay, and set my feet upon a rock and established my goings" Ps 40:2; and Jeremiah, "They have cut off my life in the dungeon, and cast a stone upon me. I called upon Thy Name, O Lord; out of the low dungeon Thou hast heard my voice" La 3:53, La 3:55-56. Augustine, de Civ. Dei. xviii. 35. 3): "The dry and barren depth of human misery, where are no streams of righteousness, but the mire of iniquity.""
     
  18. RayJeena

    RayJeena Humble and proud of it. Supporter

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    Here's a start: The Ultimate Redemptive Purposes Of God
     
  19. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    <Previous post>The problem here is this proof text does not say what you think it does. I don't know what version you are quoting but in the KJV and the pre-Christian Septuagint [LXXl it is past tense, already done, not something future.
    KJV
    Zechariah 9:11
    (11) As for thee also, by the blood of thy covenant I have sent forth thy prisoners out of the pit wherein is no water.
    LXX Zech 9:11
    (11) And thou by the blood of thy covenant has sent forth thy prisoners out of the pit that has no water.
    This is a common practice with all heterodox religious groups. Anybody can prove almost anything by quoting selective verses out-of-context and/or finding a Bible "version" which supports their false beliefs.<End>
    And what does this have to do with my post which you quoted and I quote above? The only one who changed anything is the version you quoted. It changed a past tense to a future tense quite evidently to make the verse fit false universalist teaching.
     
  20. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    If you want to know how Origen defines aionios, you'ld need to do a study of ALL his uses of the word, not just in one instance, from a mere English translation, which is itself indecisive. And, being a universalist, proves nothing about his use of the word in regards to punishment.

    The meaning of a word in any particular context requires you look at the context. The context of the quote you provide has nothing to do with punishment, so it is quite useless as regards determining Origen's view of the word in contexts regarding other subjects such as punishment, the 3 days(aionios) Jonah was in a sea creature, the amount of time(aionios) in the OT a man was to be a slave to another man, how long mountains would last(aionios) that are destroyed, etc.

    "In On Principles 3.3.5, Origen gives a clear sign that he understands aiôn in the sense of a succession of aiônes prior to the final apocatastasis, at which point one arrives at the true eternity, that is, aïdiotês. Eternity in the strict sense pertains, according to Origen, to the apocatastasis, not to the previous sequence of ages or aiônes. So too, Origen explains that Christ "reigned without flesh prior to the ages, and reigned in the flesh in the ages" (aiôniôs, adverb). Again, the "coming aiôn" indicates the next world (epi ton mellonta aiôna), where sinners will indeed be consigned to the pur aionion, that is, the fire that pertains to the future world; it may well last for a long time, but it is not, for Origen, eternal.

    "In this connection, it seems particularly significant that Origen calls the fire of damnation pur aiônion, but never pur aïdion. The explanation is that he does not consider this flame to be absolutely eternal: it is aiônion because it belongs to the next world, as opposed to the fire we experience in this present world, and it lasts as long as the aiônes do, in their succession. Similarly, Origen never speaks of thanatos aïdios, or of aïdia punishments and torments and the like, although he does speak of thanatos aiônios or death in the world to come (kolaseis aiônioi), i.e. punishment in the world to come.

    "Origen was deeply learned in both the Bible and the classical philosophical tradition; what is more, he maintained that damnation was not eternal, but served rather to purify the wicked, who would in the end be saved in the universal apocatastasis. His careful deployment of the adjectives aiônios and aïdios reflects, we have argued, both his sensitivity to the meaning of the latter among the Greek philosophers, and the distinction that is apparently observed in the use of these terms in the Bible. For Origen, this was further evidence in Scripture for the doctrine of universal salvation."

    "Terms for Eternity: Aiônios & aïdios" talk part 2

    https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
     
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