Salvation for the Dead

[Christodoulos]

And the purpose of your post is......

There are some who base their "theology" on books that do not form part of the original Hebrew Canonical Books of the Old Testament, and assume that the Roman Catholic bible is based on superior texts. This post is to show that their contention is completely wrong.

 

[Ron Gurley]

AGAIN:
Hebrews 9:27(NASB)
And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to "die" (Body/Soul combo DEATH) once
and after this comes "JUDGMENT",(of their IMMORTAL SPIRITS).

OP: "Salvation for the Dead" is a FALSE DOCTRINE!

 

[Christodoulos]

AGAIN:
Hebrews 9:27(NASB)
And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to "die" (Body/Soul combo DEATH) once
and after this comes "JUDGMENT",(of their IMMORTAL SPIRITS).

OP: "Salvation for the Dead" is a FALSE DOCTRINE!

The soul is immortal and cannot die. After physical death the soul will either go to "paradise" for those who are saved, or "hades" for those who are lost. After the Great Judgement before Jesus Christ, the former enter Heaven, and the latter, Gehenna. Both are eternal.

 

[ClementofA]

Heb.9:27 says it is appointed to men once to die. Does that deny men can die twice? No. Does it say "only" once? No. If New England is appointed to play the Buffalo Bills twice, does that deny they won't meet again in the playoffs? No. How many times did those raised before the general resurrections die?

I think, in light of the Rapture theory, many Christians would disagree with your statement that "100%, of mankind will die and face judgment". Not only that, but Hebrews 9:27 does not say men are "only" going to die once. Lazarus, for one, is a Biblical example of one who died twice & the book of Revelation speaks of the "second death".

Show me a verse that says God Omnipotent is not love, but the type of sadist that Satan can only dream of being.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf


Hebrews speaks of those who reject Christ as deserving a "sorer" punishment than death by Moses' law, i.e. stoning:

10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Stoning to death is not a very sore or longlasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed the wicked would suffer endless torments in fire, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is a sadist for all eternity.

Heb.1:2a in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all

Heb.1:3b When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high

Heb.2:2b every transgression and disobedience received a just penalty

Heb.2:6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him?
7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:

8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.

9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

14 Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil,

15 And might free those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives.

--------------------


https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

1 Jn.2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

"...it doesn't say what most evangelizers of hopelessness want it to say in that regard either."

"It is false, he maintained, to translate that phrase as "everlasting punishment," introducing into the New Testament the concept found in the Islamic Quran that God is going to torture the wicked forever."

 

[Der Alte]

Heb.9:27 says it is appointed to men once to die. Does that deny men can die twice? No. Does it say "only" once? No. If New England is appointed to play the Buffalo Bills twice, does that deny they won't meet again in the playoffs? No. How many times did those raised before the general resurrections die?...

Anybody can concoct an example from current life which can prove almost anything. It appears that to Unis "once" does not mean "once," it apparently means "maybe more than once."

Hebrews 9:26-27
(26) For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once [ἅπαξ/apax] in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
(27) And as it is appointed unto men once [ἅπαξ/apax] to die, but after this the judgment:
========
ἅπαξ [ᾰπ] apax] adv. ( Hom. +; inscr. , pap. , LXX , Philo ; Jos. , Vi 82) once.
1. as an actual numer. concept a{. ejliqavsqhn I was stoned once 2 Cor 11:25 . a{. pefanevrwtai Hb 9:26 . a{. ajpoqanei`n vs. 27 (Proverbia Aesopi 141 P. : plevon h] a{pax oujdei;" a[nqrwpo" qnhv/skei ); cf. 1 Pt 3:18 . a{. prosenecqeiv" Hb 9:28 . W. gen. foll. a{. tou` ejniautou` ( Hdt. 2, 59; Ex 30:10 ; Lev 16:34
) once a year Hb 9:7 . e[ti a{. (2 Macc 3:37 ; Judg 16:18 , 28 ) once more =for the last time ( Aeschyl. , Ag. 1322; Judg 6:39 ) 12:26 f (Hg 2:6 ). a{. kai; div" ( Dionys. Hal. 8, 56, 1 oujc a{. ajlla; kai; div" ; Ael. Aristid. 36, 91 K.=48 p. 474 D.: a{. h] div". Anna Comn ., Alexias 3, 3 ed. Reiff. I 102, 17 kai; a{. kai; div" ; 1 Km 17:39 ; 2 Esdr 23 [Neh 13 ]: 20 cc 3:30 ) again and again, more than once (LMorris, Novum Testamentum 1, ’56, 205-8) Phil 4:16 ; 1 Th 2:18 ; 1 Cl 53:3 (Dt 9:13 ). W. weakening of the numer. idea ejpei; a{. ( Thu. 7, 44, 7; X. , An. 1, 9, 10; Menand. , Pap. Did. 36 J.; Chio, Ep. 14, 1; POxy. 1102, 8 ejpei; a[. prosh`lqe th`/ klhronomiva/ ) since for once Hv 3, 3, 4; m 4, 4, 1; so prob. once in Hb 6:4 .
2. once for all ( Hippocr. , Ep. 27, 41; Aelian , V.H. 2, 30; Philostrat. , Ep. 7, 2; PLeipz. 34, 20; 35, 19; Ps 88:36 ; PsSol 12:6; Philo , Ebr. 198; Jos. , Bell. 2, 158, Ant. 4, 140) Hb 10:2 ; Jd 3 , 5 . M-M and supp1.*
A Greek-English Lexicon Gingrich & Danker​

 

[ClementofA]

It appears that to Unis "once" not mean "once."

​

You provided no evidence or argument in support of that false allegation.

Apparently you failed to respond to a single point on the subject from my post.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

1 Jn.2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.


​

 

[Der Alte]

You provided no evidence or argument in support of that false allegation.
Apparently you failed to respond to a single point on the subject from my post.
https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
1 Jn.2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.​

Certainly did. If the word ἅπαξ/apax means once and only once in Heb 9:6 it cannot mean "maybe more than once" in vs. 7. Also see the definition from BDAG. There is a term in Greek scholarship Hapax legomenon which is a transliteration of Greek ἅπαξ λεγόμενον, meaning "(something) said (only) once". It refers to something written in the Bible once and only once.

 

[ClementofA]

Certainly did. If the word ἅπαξ/apax means once and only once in Heb 9:6 it cannot mean "maybe more than once" in vs. 7. Also see the definition from BDAG. There is a term in Greek scholarship Hapax legomenon which is a transliteration of Greek ἅπαξ λεγόμενον, meaning "(something) said (only) once". It refers to something written in the Bible once and only once.

I already provided examples proving Heb.9:27 does not mean death occurs "once & only once". If it did there would be a Bible contradiction & the Bible would be lying.

Secondly, Paul says "once was i stoned" (2 Cor.11:25). Does that mean he could never be stoned again or stoned twice? Obviously not.

Furthermore, thirdly, Hebrews 9:27 does not come under Vine's definition #2 of the word for "once":

"(b) "once for all," of what is of perpetual validity, not requiring repetition"

Once - Vine's Expository Dictionary of NT Words - Bible Dictionary - StudyLight.org

How sad it is that so many Damnationists err in claiming Hebrews 9:27 proves there is no salvation after death.

Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism

 

[ClementofA]

I was just curious, does the author mention atonement for the sins of the dead?

Here is an interesting verse:

Isa.22:14 But the LORD of hosts revealed Himself to me, "Surely this iniquity shall not be forgiven you Until you die," says the Lord GOD of hosts.

 

[Der Alte]

I already provided examples proving Heb.9:27 does not mean death occurs "once & only once". If it did there would be a Bible contradiction & the Bible would be lying.

No you have not! You ignored the immediate context of Heb 9:27 i.e. Heb 9:26

Hebrews 9:26-27
(26) For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once [ἅπαξ/apax] in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
(27) And as it is appointed unto men once [ἅπαξ/apax] to die, but after this the judgment:​

In Heb 9:26 ἅπαξ/apax definitely means once for all time, cf. Heb 10:10. The writer of Hebrews would not write ἅπαξ/apax in vs. 27 with a different meaning.

Hebrews 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.​

Secondly, Paul says "once was i stoned" (2 Cor.11:25). Does that mean he could never be stoned again or stoned twice? Obviously not.

Furthermore, thirdly, Hebrews 9:27 does not come under Vine's definition #2 of the word for "once":
"(b) "once for all," of what is of perpetual validity, not requiring repetition"

That is a logical fallacy, argument from silence
Vines. Once (At: for All):
denotes
(a) “once, onetime.’ 2Cr 11:25: Hbr 97.26.27: 1226. 27: in the phrase ‘once and again." lit “once and twice.” Phl 4 16: iTh 218:
(b) “once for all" of what is of perpetual validity, not requiring repetition, Hbr 6 4: 928-:10 2; 1Pe 3.18: Jud 1:3, RV ‘once for all” (AV, “once"): Jud 1:5 (ditto). in some mss 1Pe 3.20 (so the Av).
Thayer απαξ, adv., once, one time, [fr. Hom, down]: a. univ.: 2 Co. xi. 25: Heb. ix. 26 sq.: 1 Pet. iiii. 2o Rec.; Rec; eti apax, Heb. xii. 26 eq.; apax tou eniautou, Heb. ix. 7, [Hdt. 1, 59, etc.]. b. like Lat. Semel, used of what is so done as to be of perpetual validity and never need repetition, once for all: Heb. vi. 4; x. 2; 1 Pet. iii. 18; Jude vss. 3,
5. C. kai apax kai dis indicates a definite number [the double kai emphasiziig the repetition, both once and again I. e.) twice: 1 hT.,i. 18: Phil. iv. 16: on the other hand, apax kai dis, means [once and again i. e.] several times, repeatedly: Neh. xiii. 20: 1 Macc. iii. 30. Cf. Schott on 1 Th. ii. 18, p. 8C; [Meyer on Phil. 1. c.]​

How sad it is that so many universalists mislead the lost claiming there is salvation after death.

 

[Der Alte]

Here is an interesting verse:
Isa.22:14 But the LORD of hosts revealed Himself to me, "Surely this iniquity shall not be forgiven you Until you die," says the Lord GOD of hosts.

Cherry picking a faulty translation.
JPS Isa 22:14
(14) And the LORD of hosts revealed Himself in mine ears: Surely this iniquity shall not be expiated [כּפר/kapher] by you till ye die, saith the Lord, the GOD of hosts.
The Hebrew word for "forgiven" is סלח/salah not כּפר/kaphar.
The meaning of כּפר/kaphar is 1) to cover, purge, make an atonement, make reconciliation, cover over with pitch

 

[ClementofA]

Cherry picking a faulty translation.
JPS Isa 22:14
(14) And the LORD of hosts revealed Himself in mine ears: Surely this iniquity shall not be expiated [כּפר/kapher] by you till ye die, saith the Lord, the GOD of hosts.
The Hebrew word for "forgiven" is סלח/salah not כּפר/kaphar.
The meaning of כּפר/kaphar is 1) to cover, purge, make an atonement, make reconciliation, cover over with pitch

Thayer lists pardon & forgiveness amongst the meanings:

Genesis Chapter 1 (KJV)

Most translations have forgive, purge or atone:

Isaiah 22:14 The LORD Almighty has revealed this in my hearing: "Till your dying day this sin will not be atoned for," says the Lord, the LORD Almighty.

 

[ClementofA]

No you have not!

Actually, in post #404 above i stated, & you ignored, these two paragraphs:

"Heb.9:27 says it is appointed to men once to die. Does that deny men can die twice? No. Does it say "only" once? No. If New England is appointed to play the Buffalo Bills twice, does that deny they won't meet again in the playoffs? No. How many times did those raised before the general resurrections die?"

"I think, in light of the Rapture theory, many Christians would disagree with your statement that "100%, of mankind will die and face judgment". Not only that, but Hebrews 9:27 does not say men are "only" going to die once. Lazarus, for one, is a Biblical example of one who died twice & the book of Revelation speaks of the "second death"."

I already provided examples proving Heb.9:27 does not mean death occurs "once & only once". If it did there would be a Bible contradiction & the Bible would be lying.

You ignored the immediate context of Heb 9:27 i.e. Heb 9:26

Hebrews 9:26-27
(26) For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once [ἅπαξ/apax] in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
(27) And as it is appointed unto men once [ἅπαξ/apax] to die, but after this the judgment:​

In Heb 9:26 ἅπαξ/apax definitely means once for all time, cf. Heb 10:10. The writer of Hebrews would not write ἅπαξ/apax in vs. 27 with a different meaning.

That is an erroneous assumption that violates the rules of language. It is common in languages that a word used more than once in near context often does not have the exact same meaning, or has a different nuance of meaning, or a widely different meaning, sometimes even the opposite meaning.

Paul says "once was i stoned" (2 Cor.11:25). Does that mean he could never be stoned again or stoned twice? Obviously not.

Furthermore, Hebrews 9:27 does not come under Vine's definition #2 of the word for "once":

"(b) "once for all," of what is of perpetual validity, not requiring repetition"

Once - Vine's Expository Dictionary of NT Words - Bible Dictionary - StudyLight.org

How sad it is that so many Damnationists err in claiming Hebrews 9:27 proves there is no salvation after death.

Is Lazarus the norm for all mankind?

It's enough for me to show that Heb.9:27 does not deny salvation to the lost after death. Thereby refuting what many ECT advocates think it proves.


Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism

​

 

[Der Alte]

Thayer lists pardon & forgiveness amongst the meanings:
Genesis Chapter 1 (KJV)
Most translations have forgive, purge or atone:

Without relevant scholarship showing why the translator chose a different definition, versions are irrelevant. Eeny, meeny, miney, mo is not an acceptable way of determining the correct translation. Evidently credible scholarship is not common amongst the UR.

 

[ClementofA]

Without relevant scholarship showing why the translator chose a different definition, versions are irrelevant. Eeny, meeny, miney, mo is not an acceptable way of determining the correct translation. Evidently credible scholarship is not common amongst the UR.

Whatever. I never claimed the translation was correct. Which is besides the point of why the verse was posted in the first place.

 

[Der Alte]

Actually, in post #404 above i stated, & you ignored, these two paragraphs:
"Heb.9:27 says it is appointed to men once to die. Does that deny men can die twice? No. Does it say "only" once? No. If New England is appointed to play the Buffalo Bills twice, does that deny they won't meet again in the playoffs? No. How many times did those raised before the general resurrections die?"

I have found it most helpful to actually read a post before responding to it. I already addressed this specious concocted example. Anybody, can concoct an example from modern life which can prove just about anything.

"I think, in light of the Rapture theory, many Christians would disagree with your statement that "100%, of mankind will die and face judgment". Not only that, but Hebrews 9:27 does not say men are "only" going to die once. Lazarus, for one, is a Biblical example of one who died twice & the book of Revelation speaks of the "second death"."

You might have posted something but nothing you can post will prove anything about Heb 9:27 since you keep deliberately ignoring the immediate context.

I already provided examples proving Heb.9:27 does not mean death occurs "once & only once". If it did there would be a Bible contradiction & the Bible would be lying.

Your examples are meaningless unless you address the immediate context. The Bible is not lying some people just have the wrong interpretation of certain out-of-context proof texts.

That is an erroneous assumption that violates the rules of language.

Please do not attempt to instruct me on rules of language while you ignore one of the most basic rules.

The rule of Context: The meaning must be gathered from the context. Every word you read must be understood in the light of the words that come before and after it. Many passages will not be understood at all, or understood incorrectly, without the help afforded by the context.
Hermeneutics: the Eight Rules of Biblical Interpretation​

It is common in languages that a word used more than once in near context often does not have the exact same meaning, or has a different nuance of meaning, or a widely different meaning, sometimes even the opposite meaning.

I quoted from a language source. If you have anything to say to me about proper interpretation please quote something from an accredited language source. Tents-я-us does not qualify.
The author of Hebrews uses the word ἅπαξ/apax eight (8) times and never uses it to mean anything but "once and only once." Hebrews 6:4, Hebrews 9:7, Hebrews 9:26-28, Hebrews 10:3, Hebrews 12:26-27.
Note in Heb. 9:26-28 ἅπαξ/apax occurs once in each vs. In vss, 26 and 28 it absolutely means "once and only once." Since 7 of the occurrences mean "once and only once" it is not likely that the author would use the same word in vs. 27 with a different meaning than vss. 26 and 28.

Paul says "once was i stoned" (2 Cor.11:25). Does that mean he could never be stoned again or stoned twice? Obviously not.
Furthermore, Hebrews 9:27 does not come under Vine's definition #2 of the word for "once":
"(b) "once for all," of what is of perpetual validity, not requiring repetition"

Irrelevant as I have shown. Repeating the same unsupported assertion over and over does not make it correct. See the immediate context.

How sad it is that so many Damnationists err in claiming Hebrews 9:27 proves there is no salvation after death.

How sad it is that UR deceive so many people inadvertently or deliberately encouraging a sinful lifestyle by assuring them that no matter how they live in this life they will be saved no matter what.

 

[Rajni]

How sad it is that UR deceive so many people inadvertently or deliberately encouraging a sinful lifestyle by assuring them that no matter how they live in this life they will be saved no matter what.

The hell teaching could encourage the same thing. If a person is convinced that there's an endless hell that they've got a good chance of winding up in, they may figure they should just live it up while they can.

 

[Der Alte]

The hell teaching could encourage the same thing. If a person is convinced that there's an endless hell that they've got a good chance of winding up in, they may figure they should just live it up while they can.

Which is what many are doing to today. They don't believe in God, Jesus, the Bible or hell It was also very common in the time of the prophet Isaiah. How did that work out of them?

Isaiah 22:13 And behold joy and gladness, slaying oxen, and killing sheep, eating flesh, and drinking wine: let us eat and drink; for to morrow we shall die. ​

 

[ClementofA]

How sad it is that UR deceive so many people inadvertently or deliberately encouraging a sinful lifestyle by assuring them that no matter how they live in this life they will be saved no matter what.

There's no evidence UR believers live any less of a godly life than Damnationists. Belief in God's love as it really is, rather than the milk carton expiry date type of love of Damnationists, could motivate people to want to serve Him more than those who do it for endless fire insurance & out of terror.

Early Church Father universalists warned of "hell" also, even possibly for many eons, though not of endless torments.

1Jn. 4:18 There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has chastening. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.

2 Cor.5:14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead

The endless sadist caricature of God turns many away from accepting the gospel and many church members from going to church any more, including those who once believed in Christ.

Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism

 

[Rajni]

Which is what many are doing to today. They don't believe in God, Jesus, the Bible or hell It was also very common in the time of the prophet Isaiah. How did that work out of them?

Isaiah 22:13 And behold joy and gladness, slaying oxen, and killing sheep, eating flesh, and drinking wine: let us eat and drink; for to morrow we shall die. ​

Exactly. I was thinking of that very verse when I posted what I did. A future hope is more likely to bring good fruit than the threat of future endless torment.