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To 'believe' is a verb, an action.
To have 'faith' is a noun. Or what is being believed. Does that help?
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To 'believe' is a verb, an action.Can you have faith without belief?
Or belief without faith?
I think not!
Paul said it best, in Romans 6 -But the genuinely converted believer doesn't serve sin. He is not under the power or penalty of sin. But there is still the presence of sin and temptation and it is part of the territory for mortal man.
You seem to be unaware of rebirth.But the genuinely converted believer doesn't serve sin. He is not under the power or penalty of sin. But there is still the presence of sin and temptation and it is part of the territory for mortal man.
Ever read Romans 6:7?Sin for the believer is like bed bugs. It is an unwelcome irritant and causes a true believer to look forward earnestly to the time when he will be in glory and free from the constant irritation.
How can one honestly believe a part of God's promise without believing all His promises?The Bible says nothing about this kind of belief for salvation.
How can a man believe one message from God and disbelieve another message from God?Please explain.
"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:Doesn't Jesus' promise in John 10:28 mean anything?
Belief is a noun too.To 'believe' is a verb, an action.
To have 'faith' is a noun. Or what is being believed. Does that help?
So you are not a sinner then? Well, explain your future death, because the Scripture says that the soul who sins shall die. So, if you are totally free from sin in your mortal body, you would be immortal already, right?You seem to be unaware of rebirth.
All the old stuff; flesh, vile affections, and lusts, were killed and of no further impact or consequence.
A new creature reborn of God's incorruptible seed walks the earth now...to the glory of God.
You were right about "genuinely converted believer doesn't serve sin".
Only false believers serve sin...but sadly, still call themselves Christians.
Ever read Romans 6:7?
"For he that is dead is freed from sin."
That's not the question. Each promise concerns specific things. His promise for salvation is a different promise than His promise for eternal rewards. The criteria are different for different promises.How can one honestly believe a part of God's promise without believing all His promises?
I think this is your problem. The criteria for eternal rewards won't result in eternal life.How can a man believe one message from God and disbelieve another message from God?
Believe it all or perish!
I never said the promise was for unbelievers. I'm glad you included v.27. It's not a conditional statement about HOW to become one of Jesus' sheep. It is a description of Jesus' sheep, or rather, a policy statement about HOW His sheep are to live."My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand."
I thought I would include verse 27 to show that "His sheep" follow Him.
Those who don't "follow Him" are not His sheep.
The promise is not to/for them.
Of course. My point is that 'believe' is a verb.Belief is a noun too.
Please expand on this.Being faithful is an action too.
They are inseparable.
Correct. My repentance from sin was/is real.So you are not a sinner then?
Paul wrote..."Some men's sins are open beforehand, going before to judgment; (death), and some men they follow after." (1 Tim 5:24)Well, explain your future death, because the Scripture says that the soul who sins shall die.
It is written..."I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me." (Gal 2:20)So, if you are totally free from sin in your mortal body, you would be immortal already, right?
If you can't believe one promise, you can't believe anything God has said.That's not the question. Each promise concerns specific things. His promise for salvation is a different promise than His promise for eternal rewards. The criteria are different for different promises.
If one can be eternal, why can't the other one be eternal?I think this is your problem. The criteria for eternal rewards won't result in eternal life.
"Criteria", eh?Likewise, the criteria for eternal life won't result in eternal rewards. They are totally different.
Can we agree then that unbelievers won't be counted as sheep?I never said the promise was for unbelievers. I'm glad you included v.27. It's not a conditional statement about HOW to become one of Jesus' sheep. It is a description of Jesus' sheep, or rather, a policy statement about HOW His sheep are to live.
I can't understand how you got that message from Paul's writings.You keep missing the point of the OP and esp 1 Thess 5:10. Paul said that regardless of lifestyle, those who have believed in Christ for eternal life "will live together with Him".
Which brings us right back to the fact that sinners don't actually "believe".Also, John 10:28 is clear: since every believer possesses eternal life (John 5:24, 6:47, 1 John 5:11, 13), that means that what Jesus said is a PROMISE that all who have believed shall never perish.
Scripture is what is real.Correct. My repentance from sin was/is real.
Being faithful is an action too.Of course. My point is that 'believe' is a verb.
How does one manifest faith?Please expand on this.
I think you've missed the point entirely. It's not about believing a promise. It's about believing something but rebelling against other promises anyway.If you can't believe one promise, you can't believe anything God has said.
It seems you are quite unfamiliar with difference between eternal life, and eternal rewards.If one can be eternal, why can't the other one be eternal?
The criteria for the different promises."Criteria", eh?
Isn't the basis of this "local" conversation about differences between faith and belief?
To have faith you must believe.
To believe you must have faith.
They are inseparable.
What "criteria" are you referring to?
Not as God's sheep, for sure. But Jesus was clear about the unbelieving Jews in John 10 when He told them, "you are not My sheep". He didn't say you aren't sheep.Can we agree then that unbelievers won't be counted as sheep?
No, I don't agree. Because unbelievers AREN'T in His hand. Only believers are.Can we agree that the unbelievers "CAN be plucked from God's hand"?
Some sinners are unbelievers, and all believers are STILL sinners.So the real question remains...are not sinners "unbelievers"?
The problem is your inability to understand that believers CAN "walk in darkness".I can't understand how you got that message from Paul's writings.
Especially since he differentiates between "brethren" and "those walking in darkness", and "children of the light-day" and "sleepers" in prior verses.
Please go back to the OP and read it more carefully. I already addressed this. I proved from a number of other passages/verses that the Bible uses "alert" and "asleep" for lifestyles. iow, they are metaphoric, not literal.Those "sleepers" referred to in verse 10 are those from 1 Thes 4:14-15...those already passed on.
This statement has no basis of truth from the Bible.Which brings us right back to the fact that sinners don't actually "believe".
Are you actually saying that all believers successfully avoid temptation, just because God provides an escape? That is horribly naive.If they did believe, they would have believed 1 Cor 10:13..."There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it."
Very naive. Simon the sorcerer was said to have "believed and was baptized", yet Peter told him he was "captive to sin".They would have believed Romans 6:7..."For he that is dead is freed from sin."
And John 8:32-34..."And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?
Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin."
The truth can free you from committing sin.
If folks aren't free...they don't know the truth that they can live without sin.
That or they just don't believe.
OK, explain what a "dead faith" means to you.Being faithful is an action too.
They are inseparable.
How does one manifest faith?
With an action.
How does one manifest a belief?
With an action.
How does one manifest having faith?
With an action.
How does one manifest having belief?
With an action.
Belief...or faith, are dead without the actions commensurate to them.
Please be aware that John is addressing two very different kinds of men and their very different kinds of walk.Oscarr said: ↑
So you are not a sinner then?"
Scripture is what is real.
1 John 1:8 - If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.
Were that true, then verse 7 and 9 are lies.The "we" here refers to believers and since it's in the first person, it clearly includes even the beloved apostle John.
If you can't say you have been cleansed, how can you be cleansed?In fact, because we all DO continue to sin, John gave us 1 John 1:9 in order to be cleansed from our sins. This is what "fellowship" is all about. We MUST be cleansed in order to be in fellowship or have fellowship with the Lord.
So even though you CAN be without sin, you just can't say it?When a spouse offends the other spouse, is there fellowship? No, of course not. Fellowship must be regained, through confession and repentance, for that to happen.
That makes no sense. Unless what you call "promises" are actually commandments from God or from His disciples.I think you've missed the point entirely.
It's not about believing a promise.
It's about believing something but rebelling against other promises anyway.
They are synonymous.It seems you are quite unfamiliar with difference between eternal life, and eternal rewards.
Which is most important to you?Eternal life is life in eternity, with God.
Eternal rewards are the rewards enjoyed in eternity, earned from obedience and faithfulness here on earth.
How does sinful rebellion manifest that "trust"?The criteria for the different promises.
The "criteria" for salvation is to trust fully and alone in Christ for salvation.
It seems delusional to think God will allow eternity with Him to those who continue to offend Him.The "criteria" for eternal rewards is faithfulness and obedience here on earth.
Just not "HIS" sheep.Not as God's sheep, for sure. But Jesus was clear about the unbelieving Jews in John 10 when He told them, "you are not My sheep". He didn't say you aren't sheep.
The sinners are the unbelievers.No, I don't agree. Because unbelievers AREN'T in His hand. Only believers are.
I rejoice in the fact you are wrong.Some sinners are unbelievers, and all believers are STILL sinners.
You are so wrong.The problem is your inability to understand that believers CAN "walk in darkness".
But they are also used literally when dealing with the alive or the passed away when Christ returns.Please go back to the OP and read it more carefully. I already addressed this. I proved from a number of other passages/verses that the Bible uses "alert" and "asleep" for lifestyles. iow, they are metaphoric, not literal.
I hope these 3 verses can change your mind...This statement ("Which brings us right back to the fact that sinners don't actually "believe".") has no basis of truth from the Bible.
It is the consequence of loving God above all else.Are you actually saying that all believers successfully avoid temptation, just because God provides an escape? That is horribly naive.
If that were true, we wouldn't have needed 1 John 1:9.
Does the bible you are using include 1 Cor 10:5-12?Haven't you ever read through all of 1 and 2 Corinthians? The most carnal sinful church of Paul's time. Yet, he NEVER told them they weren't saved, or that they lost salvation.
That isn't what Peter says in verse 21....Very naive. Simon the sorcerer was said to have "believed and was baptized", yet Peter told him he was "captive to sin".
Acts 8
12 But when they believed Philip as he proclaimed the good news of the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
13 Simon himself believed and was baptized. And he followed Philip everywhere, astonished by the great signs and miracles he saw.
This proves that Simon was saved.
Is your bible also missing verse 21-23?20 Peter answered: “May your money perish with you, because you thought you could buy the gift of God with money!
21 You have no part or share in this ministry, because your heart is not right before God.
22Repent of this wickedness and pray to the Lord in the hope that he may forgive you for having such a thought in your heart.
23 For I see that you are full of bitterness and captive to sin.”
It seems to me that you are not all that familiar with Scripture.
I have been able to point out the things your bible must be missing that counter your POV, plus multiple other versesI've provided verses for all of my points. They actually SAY what I believe.
You haven't yet done the same.
Your physical body isn't immortal. It will die. The presence of sin is in our mortal bodies. This is what Paul said when he said that he wanted to follow God's moral law from his heart, but there was another law in his "members" (his physical body) that caused him to do things he didn't want to do and to block him from doing what he wanted in his heart. Temptation comes through our mortal body, its desires and emotions, and sometimes the demands of our mortal bodies are so strong that when we try to resist in our own strength we fail.Correct. My repentance from sin was/is real.
Paul wrote..."Some men's sins are open beforehand, going before to judgment; (death), and some men they follow after." (1 Tim 5:24)
I was justly judged for my sins with the death I suffered with Christ at my baptism into His death, burial, and my resurrection with Him "to walk in newness of life". (Rom 6:4)
This vessel will eventually pass away, but "I" will live forever.
Don't equate the condition of the vessel with "life".
It is written..."I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me." (Gal 2:20)
I am immortal already.
Don't you have the hope of eternal life?
Well, anyone can say anything they want, but that doesn't make it true.Please be aware that John is addressing two very different kinds of men and their very different kinds of walk.
One walks in the darkness, sin, and cannot say he has fellowship with God nor that he has no sin.
The other one walks in the light, God, and the blood of Christ Jesus has washed away ALL their sins
They can say they have fellowship with God and they can say they have no sin.
I don't know what this means or refers to.I hope so.
Can't a man walking out of the water say "I have no sin"?
I fail to understand your point here. Sin makes us "dirty", and we need to be cleansed of that "dirt". That's WHY we have 1 John 1:9.If you can't say you have been cleansed, how can you be cleansed?
No, confession is for EVERY TIME we sin.The confession of past sins is necessary at the start of every man's walk in the light.
But we must remain in the light to garner the promises of God.
Quite the contrary. Of course I can say that I can be without sin. But that's ONLY WHEN I'm in fellowship, cleansed from my on-going sins.So even though you CAN be without sin, you just can't say it?
OK. By "w/o manifestation" I take it you mean it as James did in that a faith without works is a faith that is not manifested. Am I right?Faith without manifestation.
Sin is the antithesis of faith in God.
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