Salvation and Obedience: Can you have one without the other?

Mercy Shown · May 24, 2023

d taylor said:
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So again i ask, then if you say you have believed in Jesus. Then why can you not say for 100% sure you are a born again child of God and will not face a judgment to see if you are, a born again child of God.

Of myself I cannot make that Judgement, but God. We can know what God reveals to us but we cannot originate it. By this we know, if we keep his commandments and love one another as Christ has loved us. If we spit and scratch (metaphorically). If we argue and bicker over doctrine. If we speak harshly and condescendingly, then we can't know because we do not even hear Christ's commandments. That was me, I was undone but God delivered me to walk no longer in the sin of self interest.

Mercy Shown · May 24, 2023

d taylor said:
The assurance of a person becoming a born again child of God is not any change they may do. The evidence is not based on ourselves, man is a sinful deceiver. Many a person can act saved and go through the routine, become a faithful member of a church, be a Sunday school teacher, a deacon, etc...

The evidence that a person has become a born again child of God is based solely on the promise of God. That anyone who believes in God's Son is a born again child of God.

James 2;24 a person (born again child of God) is justified before God by only faith in Jesus. A born again child of God is justified before man by their actions works. Why because man unlike God can not see a person heart/mind like God can. So the only way man (women) can see if people are born again believers is by their actions. So a believer is justified before man by works, but works do not justify a born again child of God, before God, that is only by faith in Jesus.

If one is born again, change will occur. If we continue in hate, debauchery, and the sins we enjoy, we are slaves to those sins.

This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not God’s child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister. 1 John 3:10

May God be true and every man a liar.

concretecamper · May 24, 2023

Mercy Shown said:
Not if I can help it.

That's not a convincing answer.

d taylor · May 24, 2023

Mercy Shown said:
Of myself I cannot make that Judgement, but God. We can know what God reveals to us but we cannot originate it. By this we know, if we keep his commandments and love one another as Christ has loved us. If we spit and scratch (metaphorically). If we argue and bicker over doctrine. If we speak harshly and condescendingly, then we can't know because we do not even hear Christ's commandments. That was me, I was undone but God delivered me to walk no longer in the sin of self interest.

I can now see why you ask this topic question Salvation and Obedience: Can you have one without the other?.

In my view you are a confused person when it comes the points of Eternal Life salvation.

1Tonne · May 24, 2023

d taylor said:
The assurance of a person becoming a born again child of God is not any change they may do.

Correct. It is God who gives us a new heart and new mind. So, from this, a person will act in a new way.

d taylor said:
The evidence is not based on ourselves, man is a sinful deceiver.

If this is true. I can believe and then continue sinning as much as I like. Then when I am judged, I will be saved because I simply believed.

d taylor said:
Many a person can act saved and go through the routine, become a faithful member of a church, be a Sunday school teacher, a deacon, etc...

Correct. They can act as though they are saved. God judges the heart for its motives. So, why did this professing Christian become a Sunday school teacher? Why did this professing Christian become a deacon? Why did this professing Christian do this work? Why did they do that work?
Once again, you are justified by your works and not by faith alone.

d taylor said:
The evidence that a person has become a born again child of God is based solely on the promise of God. That anyone who believes in God's Son is a born again child of God.

Once again, what is true belief? Is it simply what you say or what you act out? In reality, it is what you act out. Your actions substantiate your belief.

d taylor said:
James 2;24 a person (born again child of God) is justified before God by only faith in Jesus. A born again child of God is justified before man by their actions works. Why because man unlike God can not see a person heart/mind like God can. So the only way man (women) can see if people are born again believers is by their actions. So a believer is justified before man by works, but works do not justify a born again child of God, before God, that is only by faith in Jesus.

You are splitting the verse into 2. Therefore, giving it an incorrect meaning
You admit that it is justification by faith before God but then you change the works part of this and make it before men. By faith and grace alone you have been saved but we are justified by works. This is before God. Not man.
Do we need to be justified to men? No. God is the judge. So, the verse should not be split into 2.
Proof that God has changed a person is that he will have a new heart and a new mind. New desires. A believer will do as God wills. And God wills that no one should perish. Therefore, a true believer will take some active role in the Gospel being told to the lost.
James 2:24 "You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone."

d taylor · May 25, 2023

1Tonne said:
Correct. It is God who gives us a new heart and new mind. So, from this, a person will act in a new way.

If this is true. I can believe and then continue sinning as much as I like. Then when I am judged, I will be saved because I simply believed.

Correct. They can act as though they are saved. God judges the heart for its motives. So, why did this professing Christian become a Sunday school teacher? Why did this professing Christian become a deacon? Why did this professing Christian do this work? Why did they do that work?
Once again, you are justified by your works and not by faith alone.

Once again, what is true belief? Is it simply what you say or what you act out? In reality, it is what you act out. Your actions substantiate your belief.

You are splitting the verse into 2. Therefore, giving it an incorrect meaning
You admit that it is justification by faith before God but then you change the works part of this and make it before men. By faith and grace alone you have been saved but we are justified by works. This is before God. Not man.
Do we need to be justified to men? No. God is the judge. So, the verse should not be split into 2.
Proof that God has changed a person is that he will have a new heart and a new mind. New desires. A believer will do as God wills. And God wills that no one should perish. Therefore, a true believer will take some active role in the Gospel being told to the lost.
James 2:24 "You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone."

Again you are saying a works salvation is the way a person becomes a born again child of God.

Oh i know you say it is by belief, but there is a big but in that statement and the big but is. Your definition of belief is actually works.
So when you say "you believe", you are not actually saying that belief in Jesus makes a person a born again child of God. But actually when the person starts doing the list of actions,you have created from The Bible.

Then they can hope for a good judgment before God to see if they have enough of the list checked off. To be eventually judged to be a born again child of God.

Just like the verses In James you brought up. You say it is before God a person is justified. But there is not a single part of James 2 saying that and actually in James 2:18 says
But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.

It says show me, nothing about showing God. But you read God into James 2 because of your works based beliefs.

Where actually it is stated that “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” Nothing about Abraham being accounted righteousness because of works.

1Tonne · May 25, 2023

Lol. I could answer your post, but I think this is where I give up. This discussion will keep going around in circles.
I am glad you believe. I just hope that because you love God, you will obey Him. Do not just be a pew sitter. Tell people the good news.
God Bless.

d taylor · May 25, 2023

1Tonne said:
Lol. I could answer your post, but I think this is where I give up. This discussion will keep going around in circles.
I am glad you believe. I just hope that because you love God, you will obey Him. Do not just be a pew sitter. Tell people the good news.
God Bless.

Well do you really understand what God is offering a person.
God is offering people the Life of God, known in The Bible as Eternal Life. That is when a person believes in Jesus, that person receives at the very moment of belief in Jesus The Life of God. At that very moment the person who has believed in Jesus, becomes a born again child of God.

It does not take a life time of works to accomplish this, just a moment of faith in Jesus.

The moment someone believes in Jesus for eternal life a profound change occurs, i.e., you become born-again and receive everlasting life that cannot be lost! That, of course, is a profound change with eternal significance. That is the change that occurs, but what you seem to fail to recognize is that the born again child of God can can fail in their earthly life. They can fall back into a life of sin and as the parable of the soils illustrates, can even fall away from the faith, back into a worldly life.

So now God no longer sees a lost sinful person, but now God sees the born again child of God. God sees His own righteousness The Life of God which has come to live in the now permanent born again child of God. God see He own righteousness no matter how worldly a life the born again child of God has fallen into.

It is entirely possible for someone to hear the saving message, believe it, become born again, and then never progress to spiritual maturity.

The Forty Things Received at Salvation

Hard Believism? – Grace Evangelical Society

Mercy Shown · May 25, 2023

d taylor said:
I can now see why you ask this topic question Salvation and Obedience: Can you have one without the other?.

In my view you are a confused person when it comes the points of Eternal Life salvation.

"For I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that He is able to keep that which I have committed unto Him against that Day."

Mercy Shown · May 25, 2023

concretecamper said:
That's not a convincing answer.

I am not trying to convince, that is the Holy Spirits purview. I simply praise God for the things He has done for me.

Mercy Shown · May 25, 2023

To be sure, God is the author and finisher of our faith and as He builds it it has an effect on us. It gives us a new heart, one full of His good treasure. A person can only produce what they have in their hearts so before God did His work in us, we could only bring forth the corruption that filled our hearts.

It is true salvation comes through belief and trust. This is much more than merely identifying as a believer because Godly belief and trust produce the fruit of righteousness in our daily walking after the Spirit.

We do not do works for righteousness to be saved, we do them because we have been saved and changed inside.

d taylor · May 25, 2023

Mercy Shown said:
"For I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that He is able to keep that which I have committed unto Him against that Day."

Well you can post verses all day, but if asked and you answer Of myself I cannot make that Judgement.

When anyone who has believe in Jesus and believes in God's promise. That anyone who believes in Jesus has crossed from death to life and will not come into judgment. Should be able to easily answer when ask "are you a permanent born again child of God" should be able to say with 100% confidence yes.

d taylor · May 25, 2023

Mercy Shown said:
To be sure, God is the author and finisher of our faith and as He builds it it has an effect on us. It gives us a new heart, one full of His good treasure. A person can only produce what they have in their hearts so before God did His work in us, we could only bring forth the corruption that filled our hearts.

It is true salvation comes through belief and trust. This is much more than merely identifying as a believer because Godly belief and trust produce the fruit of righteousness in our daily walking after the Spirit.

We do not do works for righteousness to be saved, we do them because we have been saved and changed inside.

What It Means to Believe in Jesus

What Does It Mean to Believe in Jesus?

Mercy Shown · May 25, 2023

d taylor said:
Well you can post verses all day, but if asked and you answer Of myself I cannot make that Judgement.

When anyone who has believe in Jesus and believes in God's promise. That anyone who believes in Jesus has crossed from death to life and will not come into judgment. Should be able to easily answer when ask "are you a permanent born again child of God" should be able to say with 100% confidence yes.

"Belief" is a subjective word. Is a man a woman because he believes he is? If I yell at you and strike out at you constantly, then claim to have been born again but continue the abuse, have I been born again?

No one will reach full spiritual maturity in this life, but if one is making zero growth or even negative growth while claiming to be born again this could indicate a case of spiritual still-birth.

d taylor · May 25, 2023

Mercy Shown said:
"Belief" is a subjective word. Is a man a woman because he believes he is? If I yell at you and strike out at you constantly, then claim to have been born again but continue the abuse, have I been born again?

No one will reach full spiritual maturity in this life, but if one is making zero growth or even negative growth while claiming to be born again this could indicate a case of spiritual still-birth.

Your illustration ( Is a man a woman because he believes he is?) shows the misunderstanding in your thinking. God is not a sinful man, so His word is absolute truth. The belief is not in yourself (unless you are believing in actions you do), the object of a persons belief is in Jesus and God's promise. There is no untruth in this promise. Now if you do not know whether you have believed or not, that is on you and you need to see why you think you have not believed.

Again your second illustration, can not be judged by a person actions (good or bad) as whether they have believed in Jesus. I know contemporary times have made that the case. With these christian fruit/action inspectors going around judging anyone who says they are a believer by their actions.

But many a person from the Bible would fail their inspections David, Samson, Moses all killed people. Jonah had to be made to go to the city Nineveh and even after he gave the message and the city repented he was mad they did.

1Tonne · May 25, 2023

I can't help it. I do find this interesting.

So, you believe that a person can put their faith in the sacrifice of Jesus and then just continue sinning as they did before or even worse and still be saved? I am not talking about 1 off sins like David, Samson and Moses. I am talking about habitual sin. (We all stumble at times)

d taylor · May 25, 2023

1Tonne said:
I can't help it. I do find this interesting.

So, you believe that a person can put their faith in the sacrifice of Jesus and then just continue sinning as they did before or even worse and still be saved? I am not talking about 1 off sins like David, Samson and Moses. I am talking about habitual sin. (We all stumble at times)

I never said a persons faith is in the sacrifice of Jesus. The Bible plainly states it is faith in Jesus that gives a person God's free gift of Eternal Life.

As for sin, Jesus took away the sin of the world at the cross. So for you why is sin still a issue in receiving the free gift of The Life of God. Even for unbelievers they will not be judged at the great white throne for their sins. Their sins have also been taken away, they remain a sinner but all their sins are forgiven.

1Tonne · May 25, 2023

d taylor said:
I never said a persons faith is in the sacrifice of Jesus. The Bible plainly states it is faith in Jesus that gives a person God's free gift of Eternal Life.

OK. I will word it in your terms.
So, you believe that a person can put their faith in Jesus and then just continue sinning as they did before or even worse and still be saved?

d taylor · May 25, 2023

1Tonne said:
OK. I will word it in your terms.
So, you believe that a person can put their faith in Jesus and then just continue sinning as they did before or even worse and still be saved?

Sin, stopping sinning, or sinning less is not a condition given by God to receive His free gift of Eternal Life. If it is, post the verses stating that to receive Eternal Life a person must stop sinning.

So the person who has fallen into drug abuse must stop using drugs and clean their life up before they can believe in Jesus for Eternal Life salvation.

I have meet a few of these people who claim they no longer sin, i guess you are another one.

1Tonne · May 25, 2023

I don't think you will find anyone who truly no longer sins. We all fall short, but we should not have continuing sin. So, we should not have habitual sin or repetitive sin.

The bible is God breathed and He wrote these verses about leaving sin. Those that believe but do not leave their sin, lie.
1 John 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth;
1 John 2:3-4 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1 John 2:29 If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone who practices righteousness also has been born of Him.
1 John 3:3 And everyone who has this hope set on Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.
1 John 3:6 No one who remains in Him sins continually; no one who sins continually has seen Him or knows Him.
1 John 3:9-10 No one who has been born of God practices sin, because His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin continually, because he has been born of God. By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother and sister.
1 John 3:23-24 This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us. The one who keeps His commandments remains in Him, and He in him. We know by this that He remains in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

Here is one about loving with deeds:
And another one for you is 1 John 3:18.

Those that just profess faith in Jesus, and do not leave their sins, are they really loving Him? No. He says in John 14:15 "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments". Those that do not love, will continue in sin.
But your belief says that these people who put their faith in Jesus but do not leave their sin will receive the free gift of life.
So, you're saying that people who do not love God will get eternal life?

Salvation and Obedience: Can you have one without the other?

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