Salvation and Obedience: Can you have one without the other?

[ViaCrucis]

I am agreeing with you about believing in Jesus saves you. I just believe we will see a change in someone who have a true belief.

In one sense that's fair, that is, as the Spirit works in and upon us, conforming us to the image of Christ, that will bear fruit.

The only thing I'd be cautious about is confusing sanctification with justification. That is, attempting to look at the change in someone as the evidence of one's justification. Our justification can not be determined by what we do, but only by what God has already done, and what He has said--it is always external to us, not internal. God's external word and promise to us, not our internal will, feelings, nor our active works.

It's why making the hard distinction between the two kinds of righteousness is of such importance in Lutheranism, that our status before God, our being made right with God, is exclusively about the Gospel: what God has done for us in and through Christ and which He freely gives us out of His grace Our sanctification, the righteousness we are called to have through our good works in relation to our neighbors, by necessity comes from what God has done and has given us; but it is not to be the way we measure our righteousness--our being right with--before God.

It's always a precarious wire's edge, because it is so easy for us, as sinners, to fall into the false thinking that it is our works which justify us. In my own tradition we talk about it as the arch-heresy, the very first and chief heresy and the natural heresy of man. It is the arch-heresy because it goes all the way back to the Garden wherein the lie of the serpent invited Adam and Eve to seek glory for themselves; it is the natural heresy of man because it is the natural inclination of the flesh to want to glory in oneself. We use an expression to describe the natural sinful condition of man as "Homo incurvatus in se", a Latin phrase meaning "man curved inward upon himself" or "the inwardly-bent human"--the natural inclinations, the lusts, will, desires, etc of man are turned inward, curved or bent inward toward glorying and glorifying oneself. Going back to the Garden, that man wants to be a god in his own right. Or looking at the tower of Babel, to climb his own way to heaven.

So we must always fight against that impulse. So that we understand that good works are the necessity of a redeemed life, not for one's justification, but as the organic outflow of God's sanctifying work, that in saving us He is changing us, transforming us, conforming us to Christ. But it is not that which we see in our works which are our justification before God, but that it is what God's gracious power now through us toward others looks like. We carry our cross to be Jesus' disciple, that the world may know Him and they be ministered to. Jesus alone carried His cross to reconcile us to the Father. His cross alone justifies us before God; we carry our cross to be ministers to our neighbors and servants of our Lord for the sake of our neighbors.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[d taylor]

I don't know if you read my last post properly.

So, yes, faith in Jesus. By believing in Jesus, you are saved. Such as the thief on the cross. He could not do anything to show his faith as he was nailed to a cross. But Jesus knew his heart from what was said. He believed.
But, when reading the bible, we need to read it in its entirety when possible. Not pick pieces here and there. So, regarding those that believe in Jesus, they will be saved (John 5:24). But because they believe, they will leave their sin (Acts 2 and 3) because they love Him.

I am agreeing with you about believing in Jesus saves you. I just believe we will see a change in someone who have a true belief.

That may be correct in a lot of people but it is seen in the parable of the soils, by the illustration used of the 2nd, 3rd soils it will not always be the case. Those believers may have experienced a short lived change but they went back to the ways of the world and did not bear fruit.

 

[1Tonne]

-​

I am only going by what you write and you wrote "belief" being synonymous with "obedience".

You implied it yourself without knowing.
You said that the Greek word "apeitheó" which means "to disobey", also means to "not believe". So, what is the opposite to not believe? It is "believe". What is the opposite of "to disobey"? it is to "obey". So, the opposite of "apeitheó" is to believe and obey.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Well looks like they are obeying ideas (a theology) they have created from The Bible.

That may be true for many people, but for the majority who, for example, practice monogamy without any reference to the Bible may not even have any theology whatsoever. Still, they can be considered as obedient, but not partaking of Christian salvation.

 

[1Tonne]

In one sense that's fair, that is, as the Spirit works in and upon us, conforming us to the image of Christ, that will bear fruit.

The only thing I'd be cautious about is confusing sanctification with justification. That is, attempting to look at the change in someone as the evidence of one's justification. Our justification can not be determined by what we do, but only by what God has already done, and what He has said--it is always external to us, not internal. God's external word and promise to us, not our internal will, feelings, nor our active works.

It's why making the hard distinction between the two kinds of righteousness is of such importance in Lutheranism, that our status before God, our being made right with God, is exclusively about the Gospel: what God has done for us in and through Christ and which He freely gives us out of His grace Our sanctification, the righteousness we are called to have through our good works in relation to our neighbors, by necessity comes from what God has done and has given us; but it is not to be the way we measure our righteousness--our being right with--before God.

It's always a precarious wire's edge, because it is so easy for us, as sinners, to fall into the false thinking that it is our works which justify us. In my own tradition we talk about it as the arch-heresy, the very first and chief heresy and the natural heresy of man. It is the arch-heresy because it goes all the way back to the Garden wherein the lie of the serpent invited Adam and Eve to seek glory for themselves; it is the natural heresy of man because it is the natural inclination of the flesh to want to glory in oneself. We use an expression to describe the natural sinful condition of man as "Homo incurvatus in se", a Latin phrase meaning "man curved inward upon himself" or "the inwardly-bent human"--the natural inclinations, the lusts, will, desires, etc of man are turned inward, curved or bent inward toward glorying and glorifying oneself. Going back to the Garden, that man wants to be a god in his own right. Or looking at the tower of Babel, to climb his own way to heaven.

So we must always fight against that impulse. So that we understand that good works are the necessity of a redeemed life, not for one's justification, but as the organic outflow of God's sanctifying work, that in saving us He is changing us, transforming us, conforming us to Christ. But it is not that which we see in our works which are our justification before God, but that it is what God's gracious power now through us toward others looks like. We carry our cross to be Jesus' disciple, that the world may know Him and they be ministered to. Jesus alone carried His cross to reconcile us to the Father. His cross alone justifies us before God; we carry our cross to be ministers to our neighbors and servants of our Lord for the sake of our neighbors.

-CryptoLutheran

A lot of reply to.
This is what I believe. If someone sees their sin truly for what it is, this will create a broken and contrite heart within the person. Then, when they put their faith in Jesus and understand the great sacrifice that was done on the cross, this will create a great love within the believer for Him. Afterall, Jesus died for us even though we are not worthy of it. What an awesome thing. This great love for Him will make us want to do as He wills. So, we love Him, therefore we will obey. Believe, Love, Obey.
Now, if someone does truly believe in the sacrifice that Jesus did, then they most likely will believe that others are under terrible condemnation. If they believe in this condemnation, and they truly believe that it is a terrible place, then they will not want others to go there. That would be terrible. They would hate for anyone to go there. So, because they believe, and because they love God, and because they love their neighbour, they will warn as many people as possible. It would be wrong not to. A true believer knows of the way to be saved and it would be sin not to tell others (James 4:17). A true believer will have a desire within themselves to warn others of the great condemnation and then tell them the way out.
So, I see that a person who truly believes will hate for others to go to hell, and therefore they will warn others. Thus, doing the great commission. This, being a form of works. They warn others because they love God, and they love their neighbour. So, they are justified by works and not by faith alone. (James 2:24). Their works are an overflow of the heart.

 

[d taylor]

You implied it yourself without knowing.
You said that the Greek word "apeitheó" which means "to disobey", also means to "not believe". So, what is the opposite to not believe? It is "believe". What is the opposite of "to disobey"? it is to "obey". So, the opposite of "apeitheó" is to believe and obey.

In the context of the verse in John 3, the obedience is addressing belief or non belief. So God has given a command, if a person wants God's free gift of Eternal Life. The command is to believe in Jesus, if a person does not believe in Jesus. They have disobeyed God's command to receive Eternal Life.

The verse is not saying that a person needs a life time of obedience, to Jesus by following commandments, repenting of sins, loving God, etc... To receive God's free gift of Eternal Life

There is no other command given by God to receive Eternal Life.

That is why this verse is also translated using does not believe.
He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

 

[d taylor]

That may be true for many people, but for the majority who, for example, practice monogamy without any reference to the Bible may not even have any theology whatsoever. Still, they can be considered as obedient, but not partaking of Christian salvation.

Obedience to God comes through Jesus. Because the believer's obedience is done by the power of The Holy Spirit. So they (the people who have not believed in Jesus) have good works done in the flesh but not sure it can be said that they are obedient to God.

Even a believer can have works done in the flesh if what they are doing is of their own attempt

 

[d taylor]

You implied it yourself without knowing.
You said that the Greek word "apeitheó" which means "to disobey", also means to "not believe". So, what is the opposite to not believe? It is "believe". What is the opposite of "to disobey"? it is to "obey". So, the opposite of "apeitheó" is to believe and obey.

Here is an illustration.

...Lady or man who is not a believer (agnostic or person who just has no time for God) is driving along a highway they happen to tune into a radio station. Where a free grace Bible teacher is teaching a lesson on what a person must do to receive God's free gift of Eternal Life. He is teaching from The Gospel of John.

...The lady or man happens to become interested in what the free grace teacher is saying. They leave the radio tuned to this person and what they are teaching. While he is teaching they become convinced what he is teaching is true and that Eternal Life salvation is by belief/faith in Jesus. So while driving down the road they believe in Jesus (for Eternal Life), just as the teacher said that is how to receive Eternal Life.

...Now the program comes to an end and they turn the radio off or to another station (country music), they are not told to love God, repent from their sins, be baptized, become obedient to God, etc.. About 30 to 45 minutes later, the lady or man is involved in a fatal wreck where they lose their life immediately. by the time anyone arrives to the wreck they are deceased.

...So did this person receive Eternal Life and become a born again child of God.

 

[1Tonne]

Here is an illustration.

...Lady or man who is not a believer (agnostic or person who just has no time for God) is driving along a highway they happen to tune into a radio station. Where a free grace Bible teacher is teaching a lesson on what a person must do to receive God's free gift of Eternal Life. He is teaching from The Gospel of John.

...The lady or man happens to become interested in what the free grace teacher is saying. They leave the radio tuned to this person and what they are teaching. While he is teaching they become convinced what he is teaching is true and that Eternal Life salvation is by belief/faith in Jesus. So while driving down the road they believe in Jesus (for Eternal Life), just as the teacher said that is how to receive Eternal Life.

...Now the program comes to an end and they turn the radio off or to another station (country music), they are not told to love God, repent from their sins, be baptized, become obedient to God, etc.. About 30 to 45 minutes later, the lady or man is involved in a fatal wreck where they lose their life immediately. by the time anyone arrives to the wreck they are deceased.

...So did this person receive Eternal Life and become a born again child of God.

That would be up to God to judge. But if they stopped and prayed an earnest truthful prayer saying that they were sorry for what they have done, then I would say, yes, he is saved. Just like the thief on the cross was saved. The thief was never able to act upon his belief in Jesus, but his truthful confession showed be put his faith in Jesus. Jesus could see the thief's hearts condition by what the thief spoke. As I have said, you are saved by faith alone.

Now, let's continue with the story.
...The lady or man did not have a car accident, but they now believed in Jesus. Even though they believe, they continue as they normally did before when they did not believe. So, they continued to watch all sorts of vulgar porn, they continued to get drunk, on occasions they went of to drunken orgies and they did not tell anyone about the great thing that Jesus did for them. They do this without feeling any remorse for the things that they do. They live like this until old age and then one day die.

...So did this person receive Eternal Life and become a born-again child of God even though his entire life he made a mockery of the sacrifice Jesus did for him?

 

[d taylor]

That would be up to God to judge. But if they stopped and prayed an earnest truthful prayer saying that they were sorry for what they have done, then I would say, yes, he is saved. Just like the thief on the cross was saved. The thief was never able to act upon his belief in Jesus, but his truthful confession showed be put his faith in Jesus. Jesus could see the thief's hearts condition by what the thief spoke. As I have said, you are saved by faith alone.

Now, let's continue with the story.
...The lady or man did not have a car accident, but they now believed in Jesus. Even though they believe, they continue as they normally did before when they did not believe. So, they continued to watch all sorts of vulgar inappropriate content, they continued to get drunk, on occasions they went of to drunken orgies and they did not tell anyone about the great thing that Jesus did for them. They do this without feeling any remorse for the things that they do. They live like this until old age and then one day die.

...So did this person receive Eternal Life and become a born-again child of God even though his entire life he made a mockery of the sacrifice Jesus did for him?

What does saying a prayer have to do with whether a person believes in Jesus. God does not require or need a prayer to be said.

If there is no wreck and they live out their life before, they are still a born again child of God.

That is interesting that one the first illustration, you had to say that was up to God to judge.

 

[1Tonne]

Ray Comfort address's your type of Gospel in this video (Only 3 mins). This will hopefully make sense. The person at the start of the video is a person who teaches a similar version of the Gospel as you.

If it makes sense to you, please watch more of him as you will learn.

 

[d taylor]

Ray Comfort address's your type of Gospel in this video (Only 3 mins). This will hopefully make sense. The person at the start of the video is a person who teaches a similar version of the Gospel as you.

If it makes sense to you, please watch more of him as you will learn.

Ray Comfort teaches a work based salvation. The Way of the Master – Grace Evangelical Society

Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”
Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”

 

[1Tonne]

You have your own mindset. It is incorrect but it is set in there and you are closed to many verses in the Bible. You read something but you do not see it. You are told something, but you do not hear it.

He says it is by grace you are saved by faith. I too have said that, but you do not listen. It even says this in Ephesians 2:8.
Then because we have been changed, we will act differently to what we did before. When you truly believe something, you will act according to that belief. If I believe I will die by jumping off a cliff, I will act in accordance with that belief. I will not jump off the cliff because I believe it will kill me.

You think you have to do something to be saved. You have to have faith. So, it is because of you that you are saved. That is your works salvation. You are trusting in yourself to have enough faith. How much faith do you need to be saved? It is by grace alone without works.
We're saved by grace through faith.

I think that I have said my piece and really. We are going round in circles because you do not have eyes to see. God bless. I will pray that your eyes are opened.

 

[d taylor]

You have your own mindset. It is incorrect but it is set in there and you are closed to many verses in the Bible. You read something but you do not see it. You are told something, but you do not hear it.

He says it is by grace you are saved by faith. I too have said that, but you do not listen. It even says this in Ephesians 2:8.
Then because we have been changed, we will act differently to what we did before. When you truly believe something, you will act according to that belief. If I believe I will die by jumping off a cliff, I will act in accordance with that belief. I will not jump off the cliff because I believe it will kill me.

You think you have to do something to be saved. You have to have faith. So, it is because of you that you are saved. That is your works salvation. You are trusting in yourself to have enough faith. How much faith do you need to be saved? It is by grace alone without works.
We're saved by grace through faith.

I think that I have said my piece and really. We are going round in circles because you do not have eyes to see. God bless. I will pray that your eyes are opened.

-​

Ray Comfort teaches a man made salvation plan. He plucks out verses from different areas of The Bible to create his message, his salesman's pitch show.

If Ray Comfort's salvation plan is Biblical. Show where his plan is used in The Bible by a person like Jesus, Paul, Phillip, John, Peter where they are telling people how to have God's free gift of Eternal Life salvation.

You not being able to say the person in the illustration (i posted) became a born again child of God after they believed in Jesus., tells what you believe. And it is not, belief in Jesus gives a person God's free gift of Eternal Life.

 

[1Tonne]

Ray Comfort modelled his "salvation plan" off Jesus. So, when He spoke to the rich young ruler. So, it is not Ray Comforts "salvation plan" but it is Jesus'.

Even the disciples were told to go out and preach repentance and faith in Jesus. So, very biblical.
Testifying to Jews, and also to Greeks, repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ Acts 20:21
So, they went out and preached that people should repent. Mark 6:12
That repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations. Luke 27:47
“Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out..” Acts 3:19
Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity 2Tim 2:19
The Lord …..not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. 2 Peter 3:9
Very biblical.

Can you please show me verses where it says that we do not need to repent?
I know you will post up verses that say to believe in Jesus, but I want the ones where it says we do not need to repent.

 

[d taylor]

Ray Comfort modelled his "salvation plan" off Jesus. So, when He spoke to the rich young ruler. So, it is not Ray Comforts "salvation plan" but it is Jesus'.

Even the disciples were told to go out and preach repentance and faith in Jesus. So, very biblical.
Testifying to Jews, and also to Greeks, repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ Acts 20:21
So, they went out and preached that people should repent. Mark 6:12
That repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations. Luke 27:47
“Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out..” Acts 3:19
Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity 2Tim 2:19
The Lord …..not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. 2 Peter 3:9
Very biblical.

Can you please show me verses where it says that we do not need to repent?
I know you will post up verses that say to believe in Jesus, but I want the ones where it says we do not need to repent.

Jesus addressing the rich young ruler is about storing up treasures in heaven.

Since repentance does not give a person God's free gift of Eternal Life. There is no need to have a verse stating do not repent to receive Eternal Life salvation.

No one is saying a person should not repent of habitual sin, that though is not a condition to receive God's free gift of Eternal Life. Repentance is for anyone believer and unbeliever caught up into habitual sin in their life. Example a drug user will improve their life if they repent of the sin of drug abuse. Repenting of drug abuse may even save their life and extend it a little longer, but that act will never give them Eternal Life.

not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,

 

[d taylor]

-
​

For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.

 

[d taylor]

No repentance, no saying you must love God to believe, no saying you must obey commandments, no saying you must be an obedient person to believe in Jesus.

Also where is it seen (at Paul's Damascus Road encounter with Jesus) that Paul repented of his actions of persecution of believers


So Philip ran to him, and heard him reading the prophet Isaiah, and said, “Do you understand what you are reading?” And he said, “How can I, unless someone guides me?” And he asked Philip to come up and sit with him. The place in the Scripture which he read was this:

“He was led as a sheep to the slaughter;
And as a lamb before its shearer is silent,
So He opened not His mouth.
In His humiliation His justice was taken away,
And who will declare His generation?
For His life is taken from the earth.”

So the eunuch answered Philip and said, “I ask you, of whom does the prophet say this, of himself or of some other man?” Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning at this Scripture, preached Jesus to him. Now as they went down the road, they came to some water. And the eunuch said, “See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?”

Then Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart, you may.”

And he answered and said, “I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.”

 

[1Tonne]

I give up. (Once again). I could answer the above, but I think I already have.
May God show you the truth.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Obedience to God comes through Jesus. Because the believer's obedience is done by the power of The Holy Spirit. So they (the people who have not believed in Jesus) have good works done in the flesh but not sure it can be said that they are obedient to God.

Even a believer can have works done in the flesh if what they are doing is of their own attempt

To be clear, I am not talking about believers in Jesus Christ at all. I am talking about the vast multitude of people who will never become believers in Jesus Christ solely because they will never hear the name of Jesus Christ, much less the gospel of Jesus Christ during their life on this earth. Many of these people, to give you an example, are lovingly married monogamous heterosexual couples (unlike many American heterosexual couples who profess to be Christian but actively engage in divorce and remarriage). Do you believe that the monogamous unbelievers are somehow disobedient to God in being monogamously married and that the divorced and remarried Christians are being faithful to God?

My point still stands - multitudes of people are obedient, but without any faith in Jesus Christ whatsoever, thus proving that there can be obedience without faith.