Salvation and Obedience: Can you have one without the other?

[d taylor]

I don't think you will find anyone who truly no longer sins. We all fall short, but we should not have continuing sin. So, we should not have habitual sin or repetitive sin.

The bible is God breathed and He wrote these verses about leaving sin. Those that believe but do not leave their sin, lie.
1 John 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth;
1 John 2:3-4 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1 John 2:29 If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone who practices righteousness also has been born of Him.
1 John 3:3 And everyone who has this hope set on Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.
1 John 3:6 No one who remains in Him sins continually; no one who sins continually has seen Him or knows Him.
1 John 3:9-10 No one who has been born of God practices sin, because His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin continually, because he has been born of God. By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother and sister.
1 John 3:23-24 This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us. The one who keeps His commandments remains in Him, and He in him. We know by this that He remains in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

Here is one about loving with deeds:
And another one for you is 1 John 3:18.

Those that just profess faith in Jesus, and do not leave their sins, are they really loving Him? No. He says in John 14:15 "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments". Those that do not love, will continue in sin.
But your belief says that these people who put their faith in Jesus but do not leave their sin will receive the free gift of life.
So, you're saying that people who do not love God will get eternal life?

Again show me where loving God is a condition to receive God's free gift of Eternal Life.

Here is an examples of verses addressing what God requires to receive Eternal Life. What you have posted from 1st John, etc.. are addressed to believers (about discipleship and fellowship with God and other believers) and not what an believer must believe to receive God's free gift of eternal Life.


But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:

And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

“He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is
condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only
begotten Son of God.

He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

“Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believe in Me has everlasting life.


Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”

She said to Him, “Yes, Lord, I believe that You are the Christ, the Son of God, who is to come into the world.”


but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name.

 

[concretecamper]

Again show me where loving God is a condition to receive God's free gift of Eternal Life

Mat 25:34 Then shall the king say to them that shall be on his right hand: Come, ye blessed of my Father, possess you the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
25:35 For I was hungry, and you gave me to eat: I was thirsty, and you gave me to drink: I was a stranger, and you took me in:
25:36 Naked, and you covered me: sick, and you visited me: I was in prison, and you came to me.
25:37 Then shall the just answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry and fed thee: thirsty and gave thee drink?
25:38 Or when did we see thee a stranger and took thee in? Or naked and covered thee?
25:39 Or when did we see thee sick or in prison and came to thee?
25:40 And the king answering shall say to them: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it to one of these my least brethren, you did it to me.
25:41 Then he shall say to them also that shall be on his left hand: Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire, which was prepared for the devil and his angels.
25:42 For I was hungry and you gave me not to eat: I was thirsty and you gave me not to drink.
25:43 I was a stranger and you took me not in: naked and you covered me not: sick and in prison and you did not visit me.
25:44 Then they also shall answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison and did not minister to thee?
25:45 Then he shall answer them, saying: Amen: I say to you, as long as you did it not to one of these least, neither did you do it to me.
25:46 And these shall go into everlasting punishment: but the just, into life everlasting.

 

[d taylor]

Mat 25:34 Then shall the king say to them that shall be on his right hand: Come, ye blessed of my Father, possess you the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
25:35 For I was hungry, and you gave me to eat: I was thirsty, and you gave me to drink: I was a stranger, and you took me in:
25:36 Naked, and you covered me: sick, and you visited me: I was in prison, and you came to me.
25:37 Then shall the just answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry and fed thee: thirsty and gave thee drink?
25:38 Or when did we see thee a stranger and took thee in? Or naked and covered thee?
25:39 Or when did we see thee sick or in prison and came to thee?
25:40 And the king answering shall say to them: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it to one of these my least brethren, you did it to me.
25:41 Then he shall say to them also that shall be on his left hand: Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire, which was prepared for the devil and his angels.
25:42 For I was hungry and you gave me not to eat: I was thirsty and you gave me not to drink.
25:43 I was a stranger and you took me not in: naked and you covered me not: sick and in prison and you did not visit me.
25:44 Then they also shall answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison and did not minister to thee?
25:45 Then he shall answer them, saying: Amen: I say to you, as long as you did it not to one of these least, neither did you do it to me.
25:46 And these shall go into everlasting punishment: but the just, into life everlasting.

-​

This is addressing believers who during the tribulation help out the persecuted Jewish believers and non believers who do not help out persecuted Jewish believers, during the tribulation. These are judged at the end of the tribulation to see who will enter the kingdom of God (1000 year millennium).

 

[1Tonne]

Again show me where loving God is a condition to receive God's free gift of Eternal Life.

The great greatest commandment. Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul and mind.
John 14:15 "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments".
You teach that to be saved, we do not to obey His commandments and we do not need to love Him, and we do not need to repent. Wow.

Why did Jesus say "repent and believe"? Was he only meaning to say "believe" but made an accidental slip of the tongue when he said repent. By your definition, if we repent, then we are doing a works-based salvation. Was Jesus teaching a works-based salvation?

"Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord" Acts 3:19
"If my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land." 2 Chronicles 7:14
"Whoever conceals their sins does not prosper, but the one who confesses and renounces them finds mercy." Prov 28:30 (But you teach we are forgiven even if we do not confess)

Now let's look at 2 Peter 3:9. "The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead, he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance." So, He does not want anyone to perish. Instead, He wants everyone to repent so that they will not perish.

 

[concretecamper]

Hmm, who to believe? Some self appointed authority or the Early Church Fathers' commentary on these passages? No contest, the Church Fathers win everytime.

Chrys.: Or, He calls the one sheep and the other goats, to denote the unprofitableness of the one, and the fruitfulness of the other, for sheep are greatly productive in fleece, milk, and lambs.

Aug., Serm. 351, 8: But one will say, I desire not to reign, it is enough for me that I be saved. Wherein they are deceived, first, because there is no salvation for those whose iniquity abounds; and, secondly, because if there be any difference between those that reign, and those that do not reign, yet must all be within the same kingdom, lest they be esteemed for foes or aliens, and perish while the others reign. Thus all the Romans inherit the kingdom of Rome, though all do not reign in it.

Origen: For the Saints who have wrought right works, shall receive in recompense of their right works the King’s right hand, at which is rest and glory; but the wicked for their evil and sinister deeds have fallen to the left hand, that is, into the misery of torments. Then shall the King say to those who are on “his right hand, Come,” that in whatsoever they are behind they may make it up when they are more perfectly united to Christ. He adds, “ye blessed of my Father,” to shew how eminently blessed they were, being of old “blessed of the Lord, which made heaven and earth.” [Ps 115:15]

 

[1Tonne]

Oh. 2 more.
So you believe that someone who continues in sin but believes will be saved.
"Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God."
"I treat my body hard and make it my slave so that I myself will not be disqualified after I have preached to others."
Do not be disqualified by deceiving yourself into thinking that you can continue in sin.

 

[d taylor]

Oh. 2 more.
So you believe that someone who continues in sin but believes will be saved.
"Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God."
"I treat my body hard and make it my slave so that I myself will not be disqualified after I have preached to others."
Do not be disqualified by deceiving yourself into thinking that you can continue in sin.

Yall post these verses, but you are not really reading what the verses are saying. Will not inherit the kingdom. Inherent is a word connected to rewards. The verse does not say will not enter. A person in a family receives an inheritance, that is, if they were not written out of the family inheritance for bad behavior.

The same is for born again children of God, they have an inheritance waiting for them. that is if they do not fail in their earthly life.

 

[d taylor]

The great greatest commandment. Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul and mind.
John 14:15 "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments".
You teach that to be saved, we do not to obey His commandments and we do not need to love Him, and we do not need to repent. Wow.

Why did Jesus say "repent and believe"? Was he only meaning to say "believe" but made an accidental slip of the tongue when he said repent. By your definition, if we repent, then we are doing a works-based salvation. Was Jesus teaching a works-based salvation?

"Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord" Acts 3:19
"If my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land." 2 Chronicles 7:14
"Whoever conceals their sins does not prosper, but the one who confesses and renounces them finds mercy." Prov 28:30 (But you teach we are forgiven even if we do not confess)

Now let's look at 2 Peter 3:9. "The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead, he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance." So, He does not want anyone to perish. Instead, He wants everyone to repent so that they will not perish.

The above verses are addressing different situations and these are not addressing receiving Eternal Life.

Show where when Jesus is teaching and speaking to Nicodemus or the women at the well about being born again and receiving eternal life. Or the group in John 6, where Jesus mentions any of what you posted about repentance, loving God, etc....

Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to everlasting life, which the Son of Man will give you, because God the Father has set His seal on Him.”
Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”
Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”
Therefore they said to Him, “What sign will You perform then, that we may see it and believe You? What work will You do? Our fathers ate the manna in the desert; as it is written, ‘He gave them bread from heaven to eat.’ ”

 

[Mercy Shown]

Your illustration ( Is a man a woman because he believes he is?) shows the misunderstanding in your thinking. God is not a sinful man, so His word is absolute truth. The belief is not in yourself (unless you are believing in actions you do), the object of a persons belief is in Jesus and God's promise. There is no untruth in this promise. Now if you do not know whether you have believed or not, that is on you and you need to see why you think you have not believed.

Again your second illustration, can not be judged by a person actions (good or bad) as whether they have believed in Jesus. I know contemporary times have made that the case. With these christian fruit/action inspectors going around judging anyone who says they are a believer by their actions.

But many a person from the Bible would fail their inspections David, Samson, Moses all killed people. Jonah had to be made to go to the city Nineveh and even after he gave the message and the city repented he was mad they did.

The only fruit we should inspect is that which comes from us. God is good and gracious and will finish the good work He has begun in us and we will bear or are bearing much fruit.

 

[1Tonne]

@ d taylor
Please answer this question:

1. You teach, we do not need to obey His commandments and we do not need to love Him, and we do not need to repent, all we need to do is believe and we will be saved? Is this correct?

 

[d taylor]

@ d taylor
Please answer this question:

1. You teach, we do not need to obey His commandments and we do not need to love Him, and we do not need to repent, all we need to do is believe and we will be saved? Is this correct?

Yes, but again i would not or do not use the word save as that word can have different meanings in The Bible.

What God is offering people is His free gift of Eternal Life. To receive Eternal Life salvation The Bible states there is only one way and that way in to believe in Jesus.

Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”
She said to Him, “Yes, Lord, I believe that You are the Christ, the Son of God, who is to come into the world.”


What Does It Mean to Believe in Jesus? – Grace Evangelical Society

What It Means to Believe in Jesus – Grace Evangelical Society

 

[Mercy Shown]

Yes, but again i would not or do not use the word save as that word can have different meanings in The Bible.

What God is offering people is His free gift of Eternal Life. To receive Eternal Life salvation The Bible states there is only one way and that way in to believe in Jesus.

Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”
She said to Him, “Yes, Lord, I believe that You are the Christ, the Son of God, who is to come into the world.”


What Does It Mean to Believe in Jesus? – Grace Evangelical Society

What It Means to Believe in Jesus – Grace Evangelical Society

What do you do with the book of James?

 

[1Tonne]

What do you do with the book of James?

This is the issue. People who have an incorrect understanding (often stemming from an incorrect end time's view) will dismiss certain verses and say that these verses do not apply to them because it only applies to other people.
This can make for a very weak version of the Gospel and very weak converts (luke warm). Even ones that do not have to love God.
Often this comes from people who believe in a pre trib, mid trib, or post trib rapture. (Sorry if you believe in this. I know many do. I even used to)
You can see in some of the above posts where I mention 1 John or Matthew 25 that they are dismissed as being only applicable to the people who during the tribulation that help out the persecuted Jewish believers, during the tribulation.
Incorrect understanding means many can dismiss a lot of important verses that are actually applicable to us. Creating weak believers.
NOTE: I don't really want to go into an end times discussion as this thread is not about that.

 

[d taylor]

What do you do with the book of James?

Do you have specific area of James, because James creates no problems for me.

 

[d taylor]

The only fruit we should inspect is that which comes from us. God is good and gracious and will finish the good work He has begun in us and we will bear or are bearing much fruit.

The fruit inspecting you do to your life, should only be in relation to how well you as a born again child of God (if that is the case for you) are preforming as a disciple/follower of Jesus.

It (fruit inspecting) should not be used to judge to see if your are a born again child of God.

Bearing fruit is only capable of being done by a mature believer, who is well grounded in the correct teaching of The Bible.

If a person (believer) does not know correctly how to tell people (unbelievers) how to receive God's free gift of Eternal Life. Then it does not matter how many people they speak to about God. They are just a clanging symbol making noise.

 

[1Tonne]

If a person (believer) does not know correctly how to tell people (unbelievers) how to receive God's free gift of Eternal Life. Then it does not matter how many people they speak to about God. They are just a clanging symbol making noise.

So, how do you tell the Gospel?

 

[d taylor]

So, how do you tell the Gospel?

I would ask the person

How do you believe a person receives God's free gift of Eternal Life.

If given a, being good or some other worked based answer or a i do not know.

Then i would tell them that Jesus of The Bible is the resurrection and the life and that to receive God's free gift of Eternal Life is only by belief in Jesus.
I would ask them (like Jesus ask Martha but changing the wording up to be personalized to the person i am speaking to) do you believe that Jesus is the resurrection and the life and though you may die, you shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Jesus shall never die. Then i would ask the person do you believes this.

If they have further questions i would answer any questions they may ask.

About the part below this is just a general thing i may say. It would depend on where the conservation leads to.
If they say yes then i would tell them they are now a born again child of God and that they need to find a church that correctly teaches Biblical truths so they can grow in their faith.

 

[Mercy Shown]

The fruit inspecting you do to your life, should only be in relation to how well you as a born again child of God (if that is the case for you) are preforming as a disciple/follower of Jesus.

It (fruit inspecting) should not be used to judge to see if your are a born again child of God.

Bearing fruit is only capable of being done by a mature believer, who is well grounded in the correct teaching of The Bible.

If a person (believer) does not know correctly how to tell people (unbelievers) how to receive God's free gift of Eternal Life. Then it does not matter how many people they speak to about God. They are just a clanging symbol making noise.

For me, fruit-bearing happens because I abide in Christ. If I abide in Christ I will bear much fruit. I cannot inspect the fruit God bears through me for most of it I will be unaware of but I can be made aware of the fruit that through His power and grace I must cast off. Romans 13:12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light. 13 Let us walk honestly, as in the day; not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in strife and envying.

God saves us for good works. Ephesians 2:10 For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance as our way of life. For we are God's handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Goodness is the feedback of salvation, it cannot be gotten by our own power or striving but by the power of God's Spirit granted us if we do not resist it. If a mechanic "fixes" my car and it still will not start or run properly, I have reason to doubt that he has indeed fixed it. A smooth-running engine is the feedback of a mechanic's good work. Whereas the mechanic cannot fix the car by demanding that it run smoothly, he can fix it so it will run smoothly. Christ is my soul's mechanic.

Just as a car is for transportation we are for good works in Christ. I do not only sit and admire the repaired car's smooth running engine, I drive it.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Is obedience to God tied to salvation? In 1 Peter 1 I read, Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ; as obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance: But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation.

Jesus asked, "why do you call me Lord, Lord and do not the things that I say?" So it appears that obedience is indeed tied to salvation but in what way? Those who are saved will be obedient ones, certainly the disobedient will not inherit the Kingdom of God. (1 Cor 6:9-10)

Yet none of us are perfectly obedient and if we claim we are, then we are being disobedient by doing so. I mistakenly thought that obedience was the way to salvation but it has turned out to be the result of salvation in my case. God saved me in Jesus Christ making me perfect forever before God even while I am being made Holy. (Heb 10:14)

Jesus taught that good comes from a good heart and evil from an evil heart. So I have figured that you can't make you heart good by doing good. No, it must be good in order to do good, so how does it become good? By being made good and that is Salvation. It is made good over time but counted good the moment we submit to God's will for our lives.

What practical advice can you share as to how you share as to how you increase your obedience to our Savior?

I once heard someone put it like this, there are two questions pertaining to salvation:

Saved by what? and Saved for what?

The best place to see this is in Ephesians 2:8-10. We see what saves us, it is God's grace alone. We can also see for what reason we were saved, for good works.

We were saved FOR good works.

It is not good works which save us, our obedience does not and cannot improve a single iota in our disposition toward God because God already saves us freely by His grace through Christ and gives us the fullness of all things through the faith He has given us. The reasons for this are obvious: We are sinful, and therefore are unable to be righteous in accordance with God's commandments; and thus the only righteousness we can have is the imputed righteousness which is the gift of God--the very righteousness of Jesus Christ Himself who is the one and only Righteous and Obedient One.

But having now been redeemed and set free, we are now called to a life of good works.

Thus good works are not a cause of our salvation, only God's own gracious choice and work to save us is the cause of our salvation, by the Person and work of Christ alone. But good works are the effect of our salvation.

The cause is God's grace, the effect is our being transformed and renewed and now walking as disciples of Jesus in this world. Relying not on our works, but trusting in Christ alone; working not to earn God's favor but working out of love of God for our neighbor.

It is not God who needs our good works, it is our neighbor who needs our good works. Therefore do justice, love kindness, and walk in humility; feed the hungry, give drink to the thirsty, clothe the naked, do unto others as you would have them do unto you, loving your neighbor as yourself.

In my own Lutheran tradition we describe this as the Two Kinds of Righteousness: Righteousness before God which is called a "passive righteousness" because it is a righteousness we receive passively through faith as the gift of God, the imputed righteousness of Jesus. And Righteousness before the world/our fellow human beings which is called an "active righteousness" because this is the righteousness we are called to do out of love and the new obedience we have now as free people in Christ.

This falls into the Law-Gospel dichotomy which is essential to Lutheran thought: the Law says what we ought to do, but we don't do it, and thus are condemned sinners, and thus the Law cannot make us right with God (and worse, the more we try to be righteous by the Law to be right with God, the more sinful we find ourselves to be). The Gospel, however, is what God has already done for us, the work is finished and completed, and God freely gives us what He has done out of His grace and kindness, that through faith we might receive it.

The Law is never the Gospel; the Gospel is never the Law.

The righteousness we have before God which is Christ alone is never our personal righteousness; for before God we have no personal righteousness. But, in relation to one another, with our neighbors, with our co-workers, with our parents, our children, our siblings, etc we are to act justly, lovingly, be kind, patient, and bear the fruit of the Spirit--to take up our cross and be Jesus' disciple.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[1Tonne]

This is from the person who started the Salvation Army. General Booth. He said, “The chief danger that confronts the coming century will be religion without the Holy Ghost, Christianity without Christ, forgiveness without repentance, salvation without regeneration, politics without God, heaven without hell.”
Sadly, it is already being taught, forgiveness without repentance and salvation without regeneration.