Saints

[tansy]

Tansy,

From the Orthodox point of view (I can't speak for Catholicism), being a "patron of something" really has no meaning, and isn't important. It's just that *some* Saints were particularly known for overcoming or dealing with certain things in their earthly lives, so people will ask their intercessions when they, too, are dealing with such things. But it has no real importance, and who cares if there's a "patron Saint of baseball"? (Just making that up. ) There are no "rules" about praying only to a certain Saint for a certain thing - that would be ridiculous!

The important part of "patron" is that each of us chooses a Saint we feel drawn to (mine is Mary of Bethany, sister of Martha and Lazarus), so she is my "patron Saint", and I ask for her intercessions often.

The other thing is that, again - in Orthodoxy - the Church doesn't "declare" Saints. God, in His wisdom, allows some to be shown after their death, to be Saints so we know they are in Heaven. When the people in the Church realize that someone has indeed been shown to be a Saint, then they will begin to be recognized as such by the Church as a whole.

Saints are those who we *know*, because God has shown us, have finished the race victoriously. We also believe that there are many, many other Saints in Heaven who, for whatever reasons, God has not made known to us on earth. Those we call Saints are just those God has chosen to make known to us.

And of course, our hope in Christ is that the "saints" on earth will become "Saints" in Heaven - whether we ever become known to those on Earth as "Saints" or not.

Mary

Thanks for your reply..I suppose I can see that it might make some sort of sense, but I still have to say I'm not sure about the whole thing.
Could you say in what way God shows the Church which particular people are Saints (as opposed to saints)

 

[Polycarp1]

My wife and I were friends with a young man who had dropped out of Catholic seminary and worked part time as a sportswriter for the local newspaper. When St. Lawrence University's football team suffered a disastrous loss, he had the perfect headline: "St. Lawrence Martyred on Gridiron"

 

[Shredhead]

Sorry guys/gals , just read the first page ,so will only comment on those posts .
Isn't it implied , by calling a person a patron , that said person is in charge of that...area ? Such as Nicholas of Myra, he's in charge of interceding for children , yet he's dead . Praying to or for the dead , is witchcraft . I'm not looking for a fight , but the Bible is pretty clear on the subject . Jesus says , to ask anything in His name , according to His will & it will be done , why then , would we do anything else ? As far as an experience/vocation making one more "suitable" to pray for another is concerned , we're promised that when we don't know what to pray , the Holy spirit will pray through us .

 

[Dark_Lite]

Praying to or for the dead , is witchcraft . I'm not looking for a fight , but the Bible is pretty clear on the subject.

Care to share those verses?

 

[Dorothea]

Sorry guys/gals , just read the first page ,so will only comment on those posts .
Isn't it implied , by calling a person a patron , that said person is in charge of that...area ? Such as Nicholas of Myra, he's in charge of interceding for children , yet he's dead . Praying to or for the dead , is witchcraft . I'm not looking for a fight , but the Bible is pretty clear on the subject . Jesus says , to ask anything in His name , according to His will & it will be done , why then , would we do anything else ? As far as an experience/vocation making one more "suitable" to pray for another is concerned , we're promised that when we don't know what to pray , the Holy spirit will pray through us .

St. Nicholas is not dead, and neither are any of the other Saints in Christ.

 

[JacksLadder]

nm

 

[Dorothea]

I'm going to add here what a fellow Orthodox Katherine2001 had posted in our forum with regards to the Saints. It was such a beautiful quote from St. Theophan the Recluse, I was nearly in tears:


"Let the icons of saints bring to your mind how many intercessors you have always praying for you before God, and how many allies fighting for you in your unceasing battles. Having themselves courageously fought the enemies throughout their lives and overcome them, they have revealed and shown the art of waging war. If, with their help, you are alert in fighting your battles, you will, like them, be crowned with victory in the eternal glory of heaven."

 

[tansy]

My wife and I were friends with a young man who had dropped out of Catholic seminary and worked part time as a sportswriter for the local newspaper. When St. Lawrence University's football team suffered a disastrous loss, he had the perfect headline: "St. Lawrence Martyred on Gridiron"

LOL

 

[tansy]

Further to some of your post..I certainly think that it's possible that those in Heaven might intercede...could also be that they have .various roles or 'jobs' there...but I don't see anything to prove it one way or the other.
And unless I were certain I would prefer to stick to praying to God directly, and other people on earth interceding. I can see from Scripture that that is definitely OK.
Perhaps those of us who aren't convinced that we can appeal to the Saints for help or intercession just haven't 'seen the light' as it were, yet.
But I certainly couldn't make a definite pronouncement about it all

 

[Dorothea]

Further to some of your post..I certainly think that it's possible that those in Heaven might intercede...could also be that they have .various roles or 'jobs' there...but I don't see anything to prove it one way or the other.
And unless I were certain I would prefer to stick to praying to God directly, and other people on earth interceding. I can see from Scripture that that is definitely OK.
Perhaps those of us who aren't convinced that we can appeal to the Saints for help or intercession just haven't 'seen the light' as it were, yet.
But I certainly couldn't make a definite pronouncement about it all

Thank you, tansy, for your respectful responses to the posts about the wonderful Saints. I am comforted by God, the angels, the many Saints praying for me and my family in heaven and on earth.

 

[tansy]

Thank you, tansy, for your respectful responses to the posts about the wonderful Saints. I am comforted by God, the angels, the many Saints praying for me and my family in heaven and on earth.

Yes, it's really good to know that God provides for us and gives us comfort through whatever means.
Whilst I try and base my beliefs on what is in the Word of God, that doesn't mean to say, imo, that there isn't a whole lot more to things than we know...I don't think the totality of everything has been revealed to us yet! LOL. But we have plenty enough to go on.

 

[boswd]

to me the Saint's is like the Hall of Fame of Christians. yes we are all saints but some people throughout the course of history have stood out above and beyond the call of duty in the name of Christ.

While Daniel Bard may be a MLB baseball player, he is no Mickey Mantle, a Hall of Famer. As I may be a saint in that I believe Christ is my Lord and Savior and died on the Cross for our sins I sure aint no St. Paul or St. Peter.

 

[nChrist]

to me the Saint's is like the Hall of Fame of Christians. yes we are all saints but some people throughout the course of history have stood out above and beyond the call of duty in the name of Christ.

While Daniel Bard may be a MLB baseball player, he is no Mickey Mantle, a Hall of Famer. As I may be a saint in that I believe Christ is my Lord and Savior and died on the Cross for our sins I sure aint no St. Paul or St. Peter.

This would be talking about the fame and glory of men instead of the Glory of God.

Ephesians 3:6-9 KJV That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel: 7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power. 8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; 9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

All of the Glory goes to God - it's His.


Good News!

The Holy Bible is the WORD OF GOD!

God The Father, God The Son, God The Holy Spirit - The Creator Of All Things!

"GOD'S GRACE" and "OUR WORKS"

 

[Dark_Lite]

This would be talking about the fame and glory of men instead of the Glory of God.

Only if you forget that it is because of Christ and because of the love of Christ that the Saints had, that they did what they did.

 

[ebia]

St. Nicholas is not dead, and neither are any of the other Saints in Christ.

He has died and he has not yet risen since the resurrection has not yet happened, so it may not be the best term but its certainly not the worst.

 

[Dark_Lite]

He has died and he has not yet risen since the resurrection has not yet happened, so it may not be the best term but its certainly not the worst.

How about "in a state of metaphysical transition?"

He's "between existences?"

Maybe "switching ontologies?"

 

[boswd]

This would be talking about the fame and glory of men instead of the Glory of God.

Ephesians 3:6-9 KJV That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel: 7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power. 8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; 9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

All of the Glory goes to God - it's His.


Good News!

The Holy Bible is the WORD OF GOD!

God The Father, God The Son, God The Holy Spirit - The Creator Of All Things!

"GOD'S GRACE" and "OUR WORKS"

The honor given to them is because of their work they have done FOR and in THE NAME OF Christ.

So by your logic should we not give honor to Vet's and Fire Fighter's, Policemen, Civil Rights leaders?


This is the one thing I just can't get. We can venerate everyone from Columbus to MLK to civic heros to War Veteran's. We will give them days to honor them. We will build statues to honor them .

but

when it comes to the men and woman who died, who helped build and shape our Christian faith and our history and if Christians have days to honor them it's idioltry.

 

[E.C.]

He has died and he has not yet risen since the resurrection has not yet happened, so it may not be the best term but its certainly not the worst.

I think it would be safe to mention that after the body dies, one's soul enters a state of being that is A) with God and B) above time.

With Christ as the Alpha and the Omega, beginning and end, how can time effect one's state of being post repose?

The honor given to them is because of their work they have done FOR and in THE NAME OF Christ.

So by your logic should we not give honor to Vet's and Fire Fighter's, Policemen, Civil Rights leaders?


This is the one thing I just can't get. We can venerate everyone from Columbus to MLK to civic heros to War Veteran's. We will give them days to honor them. We will build statues to honor them .

but

when it comes to the men and woman who died, who helped build and shape our Christian faith and our history and if Christians have days to honor them it's idioltry.

You forgot "necromancy"

 

[nChrist]

The honor given to them is because of their work they have done FOR and in THE NAME OF Christ.

So by your logic should we not give honor to Vet's and Fire Fighter's, Policemen, Civil Rights leaders?


This is the one thing I just can't get. We can venerate everyone from Columbus to MLK to civic heros to War Veteran's. We will give them days to honor them. We will build statues to honor them .

but

when it comes to the men and woman who died, who helped build and shape our Christian faith and our history and if Christians have days to honor them it's idioltry.

They lived for the Glory of God - not their own. If you wish to honor them - give Glory, Honor, and Praise to God. In the area of Glory for God, it's all His.

1 Corinthians 15:10 (KJV) 10 But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace [which was bestowed] upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.


Good News!

The Holy Bible is the WORD OF GOD!

God The Father, God The Son, God The Holy Spirit - The Creator Of All Things!

"GOD'S GRACE" and "OUR WORKS"

 

[ebia]

I think it would be safe to mention that after the body dies, one's soul enters a state of being that is A) with God and B) above time.

I don't see any implication in scripture that the intermediate state is "above time". Nor am I sure what you mean by this:

With Christ as the Alpha and the Omega, beginning and end, how can time effect one's state of being post repose?

Once one has died, until the resurrection, "dead" seems a perfectly passable description of one's state to me. Of course, one might read implications into that aren't appropriate, but no term is perfect.