Saints

[E.C.]

Interesting thread..Just curious, anybody know when this practice started..Obviously we don't have an example prayer of say Paul trying to petition Steven after he was martyred . Or rules how to chose a saint from a Saint and name what they specialize in..Grace and peace to you
Thanks..........nab

Well, Paul does ask people to pray for him in the Epistles.

Since the saints are those who really showed what it is like to live in/for Christ, I believe that the earliest recognized saints were the prophets who foretold the coming of Christ such as St. John the Baptist and Elijah and others. If I remember correctly the Apostles themselves were later recognized as saints followed by the martyrs and as monasticism came about and grew then the ascetics began to be recognized, then later on pretty much any soul who really lived as Christ did and for Him.

In the Orthodox Church the saints have all sorts of titles which tell a little bit about what they did. Sts. Cyrill and Methodius are called "Enlighteners of the Slavs" for their bringing the Gospel to the Slavic peoples. St. Stephen from Acts is called the "Protomartyr" because he was the first martyr, the famous St. George is called a "Great Martyr", as well as others, for the great suffering they experienced and for their zeal and devotion towards God. A "Hieromartyr" is also a saint who was a clergyman like a priest, deacon or bishop.

Also in the Orthodox Church there is not really a set "list" of who is the patron of what; however, it has always been natural to ask saints who were physicians for their prayers when one is sick or when one's loved ones are sick and also natural to ask saints who were martyrs when going through a real trial of some sort. I believe that it is more the Roman Catholics and Anglicans who say "this person is the saint of this, that person is the saint of that".

 

[Shredhead]

I'm a great deal bothered by the theoretic basis being advanced for why not to observe saints, coupled with things brough up in other GT threads. Essentially people are taking an antinomian attitude without thinking it through: it doesn't matter what you do in this lifetime because, y'know, it's faith that saves ya, and there's no need to look at Mary or any of the other exemplary Christians of the past because, y'know, they're dead. Screw the Communion of Saints; when your body snuffs it, you're outa here!

Umm , just in case you missed it previously

I agree one' salvation should produce Christ' likeness in a person

Communion of the saints , is about fellowship with other believers while we're all still here together....alive , not , praying to the dead .

And then people wonder why moral standards have (supposedly) dropped?

Moral standards have dropped , because people have looked elsewhere for their absolutes . Maybe you should read the story of Sodom & Lot , he was a righteous guy , living in a world of iniquity ....sound familiar ?

There's a serious fault in what's being taught, in pieces, as the supposed evangelical sense of the Gospel. It needs to be flagged and fixed.

I agree , praying to the dead is nothing but witchcraft & idolatry , & should be stopped .

 

[Shredhead]

In the Catholic Church it is the Pope who makes the final pronouncements. However, it is a very long investigative process involving many people. The canonization process comes more from Sacred Tradition than Scripture alone. It is approached from a fundamentally different mindset than a Sola Scriptura PoV.

So a {"sacred"} tradition with no scriptural backing ? hmm interesting

1Cor 15:52 & 1Thess 4:15-17
​

And?

And....they're dead , not alive , dead

 

[Shredhead]

What happens is that after their death their saintliness is recognized by those who knew them, and the canonization process is in place to set them as examples for other Christians.

Cool , no problems with that , but we don't pray to the them .

 

[Shredhead]

Have a read of 1Cor 15:52 & 1Thess 4:15-17 & then read what you've written above .
​

I have no interest in heterodox interpretations of the Holy Writ.

Corinthians & Thessalonians are heresy ??...man , your troubles are just beginning aren't they ?

 

[Shredhead]

Well, Paul does ask people to pray for him in the Epistles.

Yep , while Paul was alive , he asked the living to pray to GOD for him , nothing wrong with that .

 

[Rhamiel]

Yep , while Paul was alive , he asked the living to pray to GOD for him , nothing wrong with that .

why do you limet it to people who are alive? those who are dead in Christ are no longer part of the body of christ or something?

 

[Dark_Lite]

So a {"sacred"} tradition with no scriptural backing ? hmm interesting

2 Thessalonians 2:15 says:

Therefore, brothers, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught, either by an oral statement or by a letter of ours.

That verse is one of the primary verses supporting apostolic Tradition. There are several other verses (not as strong, in my opinion), and the historical evidences that point to Tradition.

Also, John 3:16. Are people in heaven dead or alive? I notice we have eternal life until it comes to the mysterious practice of praying to Saints, and then suddenly everyone is dead.

 

[PaladinValer]

Umm , just in case you missed it previously
Communion of the saints , is about fellowship with other believers while we're all still here together....alive , not , praying to the dead .

No, the Communion of Saints is the bond in which all Christians throughout all eternity share in no matter the space-time continuum.

The Church exists in all three realms: on our material plane, in the abode of God, and in the temporary sheol.

Moral standards have dropped , because people have looked elsewhere for their absolutes . Maybe you should read the story of Sodom & Lot , he was a righteous guy , living in a world of iniquity ....sound familiar ?

No, moral standards have dropped because of your unorthodox ideas on death.

I agree , praying to the dead is nothing but witchcraft & idolatry , & should be stopped .

if you think they are dead, then you must logically believe Christ failed.

So a {"sacred"} tradition with no scriptural backing ? hmm interesting

And....they're dead , not alive , dead

See my immediate above.

Furthermore, Fallacy of Appealing to Ignorance. Just because the Holy Scripture is silent on an issue doesn't mean it is automatically wrong.

Corinthians & Thessalonians are heresy ??...man , your troubles are just beginning aren't they ?

Read again what I said. I said no such thing.

I said your interpretations of those passages are unorthodox. So unless you wish to pontificate (!), I suggest you retract.

Yep , while Paul was alive , he asked the living to pray to GOD for him , nothing wrong with that .

Again, if you think the "dead" are somehow no longer in Communion with the rest of the Church (and thus with God), then you automatically believe Christ failed.

You may say otherwise with your lips, but your belief and your heart betray your lips (or, in this case, fingers). If the two do not agree, then it doesn't matter how much you insist otherwise because the result is still the same.

Christ depowered death. The gates of sheol have been cast from their hinges and laid in ruins; twisted, rusted, bent, and broken into pieces. Now, instead of an inky gloom, a foretaste of what will be shines through by the Presence of the Holy Three-in-One.

They share in the same Presence, so they share in the same Communion. Its a great biconditional.

 

[Blackknight]

I agree , praying to the dead is nothing but witchcraft & idolatry , & should be stopped .

That's your opinion. The church does not believe that and we do not pray to the dead any way. Their body is gone, that's all, to quote a Megadeth song.

 

[Dark_Lite]

That's your opinion. The church does not believe that and we do not pray to the dead any way. Their body is gone, that's all, to quote a Megadeth song.

Yes, it should be clarified that "prayer to the Saints" is the easier way of saying "asking for the Saints to intercede to God on our behalf."

 

[Dorothea]

The Body of Christ is a community of His believers past, present, and future. It is not about individualism, but a whole community. We are all together in praying and worshipping our God.

 

[dalinea]

.

 

[Hairy Tic]

With God.....it is a level playing field, it always has been.

Humans have a historical record of people that have come before us, but they are no greater a Saint than a child who starved to death some where in Africa last week.

Humans may be impressed by the accomplishements of others during their life time.
God is not....they where only fellow Servant/ Saints doing what God gave them to do.

Any good works they walked in, where prepared before hand by God for them to walk in them.

All the Glory goes to God....and to him alone!

## Wouldn't the logic of your last remark mean that nobody should receive a medal for bravery, or a prize for some achievement, or an award for this or that ?

STM that regardless of God, there is a big difference between the man who is blown up while trying to defuse a bomb, & the man who is no such danger, or who sets it. One could equally well argue that any good qualities in people come from God, and should be recognised by the awarding of honours for that purpose. But not to reward merit in others is monstrous - it puts devils in human form, like Hitler or or Stalin or Mao, on a level with heroes like Father Damien of Molokai or Raoul Wallenberg.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raoul_Wallenberg

"[Father Damien] won recognition for his ministry to people with leprosy (also known as Hansen's disease), who had been placed under a government-sanctioned medical quarantine on the island of Molokai in the Kingdom of Hawaii.[2]

After sixteen years caring for the physical, spiritual and emotional needs of those in the leper colony, he eventually contracted and died of the disease, and is widely considered a "martyr of charity". He is the ninth person recognized as a saint by the Catholic Church to have lived, worked, and died in what is now the United States."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Father_Damien

 

[christianmomof3]

## Wouldn't the logic of your last remark mean that nobody should receive a medal for bravery, or a prize for some achievement, or an award for this or that ?

But not to reward merit in others is monstrous - it puts devils in human form, like Hitler or or Stalin or Mao, on a level with heroes like Father Damien of Molokai or Raoul Wallenberg.

I have read about father Damien and he was a remarkable man. However, that does not mean that he has any better standing before the Lord than someone who did not do the things he did. Remember the story in the Bible about the woman who gave only a small amount of money to the Lord, but what she gave was all that she had and so it counted more than someone who gave much more than she did.

Mark 12:41Jesus sat down opposite the place where the offerings were put and watched the crowd putting their money into the temple treasury. Many rich people threw in large amounts. 42But a poor widow came and put in two very small copper coins, worth only a fraction of a penny.
43Calling his disciples to him, Jesus said, "I tell you the truth, this poor widow has put more into the treasury than all the others. 44They all gave out of their surplus; but she, out of her poverty, put in everything—all she had to live on."

If someone else saw that woman give a small amount and others give so much more, not knowing her situation, they might see the big givers as "better" than she was.
The Lord knows our hearts and our situations.
We do not really know others the way that He does.
We cannot judge other's spiritual standing the way the Lord can.
We can only see the outward things, but the Lord knows our hearts and everything.
It is ok to recognize the achievements and sacrifices of others.
But, not recognizing them does not mean we put them on the same level as murderers.
I don't think that father Damien did what he did in order to get recognition for himself and I don't think he would have been insulted if he never got any recognition for himself.
We should be those who do our giving secretly and not shouting on the corners like the hypocrites anyway.
God is not a respector of persons. (Acts 10:34, Eph 6:9, 2 Chron. 19:7)
He does not care if we are rich or poor or famous or infamous or a nobody. He does not see a celebrity as any better than a peon.
Yes, we can learn from father Damien's example of how to care for others and love them with the Lord's love. But that does not mean that he was any closer to God than we can be or that he was any better than the man who cleans the toilets at the place you work.

Nowhere in the Bible are we told to pray to physically dead people nor are there any examples of anyone ever praying to physically dead people.
And there are passages in the Old Testament that tell us NOT to contact the physically dead. I have not seen that recinded in the NT.

 

[narnia59]

I have read about father Damien and he was a remarkable man. However, that does not mean that he has any better standing before the Lord than someone who did not do the things he did. Remember the story in the Bible about the woman who gave only a small amount of money to the Lord, but what she gave was all that she had and so it counted more than someone who gave much more than she did.

Mark 12:41Jesus sat down opposite the place where the offerings were put and watched the crowd putting their money into the temple treasury. Many rich people threw in large amounts. 42But a poor widow came and put in two very small copper coins, worth only a fraction of a penny.
43Calling his disciples to him, Jesus said, "I tell you the truth, this poor widow has put more into the treasury than all the others. 44They all gave out of their surplus; but she, out of her poverty, put in everything—all she had to live on."

If someone else saw that woman give a small amount and others give so much more, not knowing her situation, they might see the big givers as "better" than she was.
The Lord knows our hearts and our situations.
We do not really know others the way that He does.
We cannot judge other's spiritual standing the way the Lord can.
We can only see the outward things, but the Lord knows our hearts and everything.
It is ok to recognize the achievements and sacrifices of others.
But, not recognizing them does not mean we put them on the same level as murderers.
I don't think that father Damien did what he did in order to get recognition for himself and I don't think he would have been insulted if he never got any recognition for himself.
We should be those who do our giving secretly and not shouting on the corners like the hypocrites anyway.
God is not a respector of persons. (Acts 10:34, Eph 6:9, 2 Chron. 19:7)
He does not care if we are rich or poor or famous or infamous or a nobody. He does not see a celebrity as any better than a peon.
Yes, we can learn from father Damien's example of how to care for others and love them with the Lord's love. But that does not mean that he was any closer to God than we can be or that he was any better than the man who cleans the toilets at the place you work.

Nowhere in the Bible are we told to pray to physically dead people nor are there any examples of anyone ever praying to physically dead people.
And there are passages in the Old Testament that tell us NOT to contact the physically dead. I have not seen that recinded in the NT.

Bold red -- you've just pointed out another fine example of someone who indeed has better standing before the Lord. As you point out, what the woman did counted more than the rest.

And perhaps the reason the Bible doesn't tell us to pray to physically dead people is because as far as they were concerned they weren't dead -- they were alive in Christ as we are. All part of the same body, of which St. Paul says there is no division.

In the OT we are told not to consult the dead in an attempt to gain information about the future. That prohibition would indeed still be in affect.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Bold red -- you've just pointed out another fine example of someone who indeed has better standing before the Lord. As you point out, what the woman did counted more than the rest.

And perhaps the reason the Bible doesn't tell us to pray to physically dead people is because as far as they were concerned they weren't dead -- they were alive in Christ as we are. All part of the same body, of which St. Paul says there is no division.

In the OT we are told not to consult the dead in an attempt to gain information about the future. That prohibition would indeed still be in affect.

Oddly enough, whether or not you understand it, there is great division of the body of Christ. A few examples will suffice.

1. Of course, unless you are an extreme exclusivist that believes your denomination is the only Church that ever was, there are denominational divisions.
2. There are geographic divisions - the Greek Orthodox Church, the Russian Orthodox Church, the Roman Catholic Church, various bishoprics, innumerable parishes, etc.
3. There is the division between time and eternity. Time is not eternity and never will be. Thus, those who are in an eternal state are not subject to the laws of time.
4. There is a spatial division, assuming that heaven has physical aspects to it. Earth is not heaven and never will be. Heaven is a distinct place apart from earth.

Thus, it is absurd to think that disembodied saints are not divided in real and distinct ways from embodied saints.

 

[Thekla]

The Angels are in Heaven - they're not divided from folks on earth ... (seen throughout the Bible).

 

[narnia59]

Oddly enough, whether or not you understand it, there is great division of the body of Christ. A few examples will suffice.

1. Of course, unless you are an extreme exclusivist that believes your denomination is the only Church that ever was, there are denominational divisions.
2. There are geographic divisions - the Greek Orthodox Church, the Russian Orthodox Church, the Roman Catholic Church, various bishoprics, innumerable parishes, etc.
3. There is the division between time and eternity. Time is not eternity and never will be. Thus, those who are in an eternal state are not subject to the laws of time.
4. There is a spatial division, assuming that heaven has physical aspects to it. Earth is not heaven and never will be. Heaven is a distinct place apart from earth.

Thus, it is absurd to think that disembodied saints are not divided in real and distinct ways from embodied saints.

Well then color St. Paul "absurd" since he clearly believes there is no division and bluntly states so. But to your points

1) The visible divisions in Christendom are a travesty and not as Christ intended. Nonetheless, the mystical body of Christ is one per St. Paul.
2) Geography is an attribute not a division. My son no longer lives as home; our family is no longer co-located but we are not divided. Do you really think St. Paul believed that the one body of Christ was divided between Corinth and Antioch for example?
3) Read the Screwtape letters. Lewis explains how the present moment in chronological time intersects with eternity. Unity.
4) I think your assumption is faulty.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Well then color St. Paul "absurd" since he clearly believes there is no division and bluntly states so. But to your points

1) The visible divisions in Christendom are a travesty and not as Christ intended. Nonetheless, the mystical body of Christ is one per St. Paul.
2) Geography is an attribute not a division. My son no longer lives as home; our family is no longer co-located but we are not divided. Do you really think St. Paul believed that the one body of Christ was divided between Corinth and Antioch for example?
3) Read the Screwtape letters. Lewis explains how the present moment in chronological time intersects with eternity. Unity.
4) I think your assumption is faulty.

There are many attributes of the Church of which unity is one. As you have noted geographic division is another undeniable attribute. It is absurd to apply one attribute and make it the sole attribute of the Church. If unity were the only attribute then the Church would be the Borg, but it is not.

IMO it is absurd for me to think of unity to the point that I can summon St. Christopher to my side from heaven. The disembodied spirits of the saints are in heaven and their bodies remain here on earth until the resurrection. That is an undeniable division.

I have no means of knowing with any certainty (given my physical limitations) the present location of any disembodied saint, other than in heaven. As a result, I have no certainty that any saint is capable of hearing, much less interested in hearing, any prayers made to them. It is certain, from this discussion, that no saint answers the prayers in the form of acting on their own initiative and ability to cause the answer to come about, but that, at best, the prayer is transmitted to God for His answer.