Saints

[Dorothea]

So your real problem is not that Saints are recognized, but that people ask Saints for intercession. For one, Saints are in heaven and closer to God. They are transformed into perfect holiness from being in heaven. I think the real question is why not ask people who are in heaven, in the face of God, to intercede for you? Why would physical death prevent someone from praying?

Exactly. Their prayers are very powerful.

 

[Zebra1552]

So your real problem is not that Saints are recognized, but that people ask Saints for intercession.

My problem is that I don't understand it! It frustrates me! I spent an hour yesterday talking with a Muslim on my campus about our beliefs and was completely blown away with how similar we are, yet I've been taught to see Muslims as extremists who deny God. And Catholics, similarly, pray to saints, worship Mary, believe they eat the real body and blood, and see demons everywhere. Or that Pentecostals roll around and seize to make it look like they have the Spirit in them. I'd like to get my stories straight.

For one, Saints are in heaven and closer to God. They are transformed into perfect holiness from being in heaven. I think the real question is why not ask people who are in heaven, in the face of God, to intercede for you? Why would physical death prevent someone from praying?

It wouldn't. But seeing as they are with God, wouldn't they already be praying for the inhabitants of the earth? And wouldn't the living benefit more from an answered prayer?

As for people who pray to dead relatives, there are some people who do it. However, unless your relative happens to be declared a Saint, you don't really have any way of knowing that the person is in heaven or not, so it sounds like a shady thing to do. It's really more of a leap of faith I guess, in that regard. I personally would not ask a dead relative for intercession. I would pray for them, however.

Similarly, how do you know that the saints are with God?

 

[Zebra1552]

So you think asking another member of the Body of Christ for intercession is ok....you just wish to limit it only to those members who are not fully united with God. Correct?

I just see more reason to ask the living because they can be edified and built up by it.

 

[Sphinx777]

Do you believe in the Communion of Saints?



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[tansy]

Thanks very much everyone for your responses - CF didn't seem to be working properly earlier, so I couldnt make any replies before (is there a patron saint of computers, or computer users??)

I agree with what one poster said that we (Christians) are ALL saints. I also agree that there are particular people who led exceptional lives...but I don't think they are saints any more than the rest of us....just perhaps they got through the sanctifying process more in this life than most?
I can also see that perhaps they might intercede for us, just as people still on earth intercede - but how do we KNOW that they in fact do, and that they are particularly 'good' for certain things? And who decided this?
And why not, as someone else pointed out, could we not then ask a dead relative to intercede, as long as we were certain they were believers...if they had an affinity for a particular area of life, then why not?
What about saints we know nothing of..do they intercede, or are they left out because no-one knows they do?
This is somewhat mystifying to me.

 

[Dark_Lite]

My problem is that I don't understand it! It frustrates me! I spent an hour yesterday talking with a Muslim on my campus about our beliefs and was completely blown away with how similar we are, yet I've been taught to see Muslims as extremists who deny God. And Catholics, similarly, pray to saints, worship Mary, believe they eat the real body and blood, and see demons everywhere. Or that Pentecostals roll around and seize to make it look like they have the Spirit in them. I'd like to get my stories straight.

Misinformation is abound in many circles, and it is very frustrating.

It wouldn't. But seeing as they are with God, wouldn't they already be praying for the inhabitants of the earth? And wouldn't the living benefit more from an answered prayer?

They likely would be praying for the inhabitants of the Earth. But just as people on Earth may pray for a list of things and can still receive a specific prayer request, so can the saints in heaven. I don't really understand the second question. Prayers directed to Saints (which is the simpler way of saying "requests for intercession") are usually about things happening in the living world anyway.

Similarly, how do you know that the saints are with God?

We know that the Saints are with God either through scriptural evidence (in the case of Saints in the Bible), or through the Church (in the case of Saints who lived after the canon was closed). At its core, the assurance of Saints who lived after the canon's closing being in heaven relies on the belief that the Church has the ability to determine such things. Belief that the Church has the ability to determine such things relies on acceptance of apostolic succession. Belief in apostolic succession relies on an examination of history and Scripture. Eventually, of course, as with all religion, it boils down to faith.

 

[MrPolo]

I just see more reason to ask the living because they can be edified and built up by it.

True, and we should ask each other for intercession. We Catholics, Orthodox, et al, also pray to those in heaven because Scripture tells us the prayer of the righteous is very powerful.

 

[Zebra1552]

Misinformation is abound in many circles, and it is very frustrating.

Tell me about it.

They likely would be praying for the inhabitants of the Earth. But just as people on Earth may pray for a list of things and can still receive a specific prayer request, so can the saints in heaven. I don't really understand the second question. Prayers directed to Saints (which is the simpler way of saying "requests for intercession") are usually about things happening in the living world anyway.

The living can be edified and encouraged by answered prayer. Those in heaven are already with God and don't really 'need' such additional encouragement, making the living more in need of such. By interceding, people are blessed.

We know that the Saints are with God either through scriptural evidence (in the case of Saints in the Bible), or through the Church (in the case of Saints who lived after the canon was closed). At its core, the assurance of Saints who lived after the canon's closing being in heaven relies on the belief that the Church has the ability to determine such things. Belief that the Church has the ability to determine such things relies on acceptance of apostolic succession. Belief in apostolic succession relies on an examination of history and Scripture. Eventually, of course, as with all religion, it boils down to faith.

The church is the Body of Christ in the Bible. Wouldn't I, as a member of that church, be able to discern who is and is not inside the Body?

 

[Thekla]

Asking the Saints for their prayers witnesses to the wholeness and the communion of the body of Christ and the victory of Christ.

 

[MrPolo]

Thanks very much everyone for your responses - CF didn't seem to be working properly earlier, so I couldnt make any replies before (is there a patron saint of computers, or computer users??)

I agree with what one poster said that we (Christians) are ALL saints. I also agree that there are particular people who led exceptional lives...but I don't think they are saints any more than the rest of us....just perhaps they got through the sanctifying process more in this life than most?
I can also see that perhaps they might intercede for us, just as people still on earth intercede - but how do we KNOW that they in fact do, and that they are particularly 'good' for certain things? And who decided this?
And why not, as someone else pointed out, could we not then ask a dead relative to intercede, as long as we were certain they were believers...if they had an affinity for a particular area of life, then why not?
What about saints we know nothing of..do they intercede, or are they left out because no-one knows they do?
This is somewhat mystifying to me.

St. Isidore of Seville is a patron for computers.
You are correct all authentic Christians are saints. The "Saints" labelled as such in the Catholic or Orthodox Church come from those people leading exceptionally heroic lives in regards to the faith. They are named either officially by the Church or become known as "Saint so-and-so" throughout the centuries the via tradition of the faithful.

There is nothing wrong with asking a relative for intercession, particularly if you know them to have lived a faithful life. You could always qualify your prayer "Uncle Bob, if you can intercede for me, please pray for x."

 

[Sphinx777]

Who Is Your Favorite Saint?



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[ebia]

If you like to consider yourself equivalent to St Maximus, St John, St Thomas etc then all you do is prove my point.

Try humility sometime. It's even Christian!

I don't go about considering who I'm equivalent, superior or inferior to all that time. Real humility isn't about regarding oneself as dirt, real humility is more about not worry about such stuff except when it matters.

But lets be clear - some people do live lives that give us great example. But its a misuse of the word saint to co-opt it to distinguish such people.

 

[ebia]

Who Is Your Favorite Saint?​

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Barnabas

 

[E.C.]

Why ask the dead to pray? Why not the living so they can be edified when prayer is answered?

In Christ, there is no death, only eternal life.

"As many as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ", I think Paul said that in one of his Epistles. If all of the world's Christians from Pentecost until now have "put on Christ", how then can they not be alive in Him?

Asking the Saints for their prayers witnesses to the wholeness and the communion of the body of Christ and the victory of Christ.

Thekla, I'm going to build off of this for a moment if you don't mind.


The rest of the forum,

Besides resurrecting, what did Christ do on Pascha (Easter)? Would it be fair to say that He defeated death with His Resurrection?

If we are in Christ and there is no "Gentile or Jew", no "servant or free", how then can there be "dead and alive"?


Jesus Christ by resurrecting defeated death and because of that death is no more; it is now possible for man to return to his complete state of being on a level that is similar to Adam before the Fall.
With death defeated by Christ, with us being baptized into Christ and with those before us also being baptized into Christ, we are all in Christ. How than can physical death remain a barrier if the one, Jesus Christ, whom we've been baptized into and put on defeated death?

Jesus Christ defeated death and in Him we are all united. How then can death still be a problem?


In the words of the Paschal (Easter) Homily of St. John Chrysostom,

"Enjoy ye all the feast of faith: Receive ye all the riches of loving-kindness. let no one bewail his poverty, for the universal kingdom has been revealed. Let no one weep for his iniquities, for pardon has shown forth from the grave. Let no one fear death, for the Savior's death has set us free. He that was held prisoner of it has annihilated it. By descending into Hell, He made Hell captive. He embittered it when it tasted of His flesh. And Isaiah, foretelling this, did cry: Hell, said he, was embittered, when it encountered Thee in the lower regions. It was embittered, for it was abolished. It was embittered, for it was mocked. It was embittered, for it was slain. It was embittered, for it was overthrown. It was embittered, for it was fettered in chains. It took a body, and met God face to face. It took earth, and encountered Heaven. It took that which was seen, and fell upon the unseen.

O Death, where is your sting? O Hell, where is your victory? Christ is risen, and you are overthrown. Christ is risen, and the demons are fallen. Christ is risen, and the angels rejoice. Christ is risen, and life reigns. Christ is risen, and not one dead remains in the grave. For Christ, being risen from the dead, is become the first fruits of those who have fallen asleep. To Him be glory and dominion unto ages of ages. Amen."

I think that in order to truly form an opinion on the prayers of those who are truly with God, one must know what one believes about the Resurrection.

 

[Dark_Lite]

The living can be edified and encouraged by answered prayer. Those in heaven are already with God and don't really 'need' such additional encouragement, making the living more in need of such. By interceding, people are blessed.

I still don't understand, or you may be misunderstanding something. The Saints are interceding for people here on Earth. So, the living would be edified, I think.

The church is the Body of Christ in the Bible. Wouldn't I, as a member of that church, be able to discern who is and is not inside the Body?

Only God can judge hearts. We can make observations in the living world and see who holds to Christian doctrine or not, of course. Furthermore, we, ourselves, alone, are not aware of who is in heaven or hell. We can make guesses (and many people do), but we're not there ourselves. We don't get to see.

As for the Body of Christ, Catholicism/Orthodoxy/other apostolic churches do have the notion of a visible church as well as the invisible Body of Christ. Originally, the visible Church and the Body were one and the same. However, because of the divisions over the centuries, the theology needed to be more explicitly defined.

 

[Zebra1552]

In Christ, there is no death, only eternal life.

"As many as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ", I think Paul said that in one of his Epistles. If all of the world's Christians from Pentecost until now have "put on Christ", how then can they not be alive in Him?

Don't be a smart aleck.

 

[Thekla]

Don't be a smart aleck.

This is what Paul says, too; see 2 Corinthians 5: 6-8

 

[Zebra1552]

I still don't understand, or you may be misunderstanding something. The Saints are interceding for people here on Earth. So, the living would be edified, I think.

Doesn't knowing that someone is praying for you build you up? Yes? And doesn't asking other people to pray build those other people up and bring them closer to God?

Only God can judge hearts. We can make observations in the living world and see who holds to Christian doctrine or not, of course. Furthermore, we, ourselves, alone, are not aware of who is in heaven or hell. We can make guesses (and many people do), but we're not there ourselves. We don't get to see.

Then how come your Church gets to judge who is or is not a Saint?

 

[Dark_Lite]

Doesn't knowing that someone is praying for you build you up? Yes? And doesn't asking other people to pray build those other people up and bring them closer to God?

I would imagine it would build most people up. Why does that suddenly nullify saintly prayer?

Then how come your Church gets to judge who is or is not a Saint?

See previous response about being tied to apostolic succession and all that. It is a doctrine heavily tied to the concepts of Tradition and the Deposit of Faith. Also, just want to make sure we're all aware of the saint vs Saint description.

 

[tansy]

I still don't understand how people can know who is a Saint with a capital S, whether it is tied to Apostolic succession or not.
And how on earth do they know which Saint should be the patron of what?
I mean, how do we know that the people up in Heaven aren't sighing and shaking their heads because we've attributed something to them which isn't their particular 'area'? Or perhaps they all have to have a discussion where Saint Gill says 'Oh dear, those people down there have just burdened me with the job of being patron of drowning goldfish, whereas really I'd be much better at doing egg collectors...Saint Bob, you'd be good at the goldfish - could I swap with you..I know you're not that keen on the egg thingy?
Sorry, I know that sounds facetious..but it all still seems slightly puzzling to me.