Saints

[Polycarp1]

Saints as the CC defines them are a BIT different than how the Bible defines them.

No smartaleckery -- but how do you understand the two definitions to be written? I think I know what you're going for, but I want to be clear on your views first.

 

[Zebra1552]

Thanks, Polycarp. I appreciate it.

Catholics seem to put them on a pedestal, like they're more special than other Christians because of what they accomplished, whereas in the Bible EVERYONE is a saint and there's equality. There's recognition, then there's going overboard and causing problems.

 

[SpiritDriven]

Everyone is a saint, but some are Saints.

Just like everyone is a baseball player, but some are Babe Ruth, Jackie Robinson or Nolan Ryan.


The Saints are great to look to for inspiration. They are the Church Triumphant, we are the Church Militant. How can we know that it is possible to "finish the race" if we do not look to those who have, the Church Triumphant, for additional inspiration and edification?

With God.....it is a level playing field, it always has been.

Humans have a historical record of people that have come before us, but they are no greater a Saint than a child who starved to death some where in Africa last week.

Humans may be impressed by the accomplishements of others during their life time.
God is not....they where only fellow Servant/ Saints doing what God gave them to do.

Any good works they walked in, where prepared before hand by God for them to walk in them.

All the Glory goes to God....and to him alone!

 

[nChrist]

Just a sample:

Romans 15:25-31 (KJV)25 But now I go unto Jerusalem to minister unto the saints. 26 For it hath pleased them of Macedonia and Achaia to make a certain contribution for the poor saints which are at Jerusalem. 27 It hath pleased them verily; and their debtors they are. For if the Gentiles have been made partakers of their spiritual things, their duty is also to minister unto them in carnal things. 28 When therefore I have performed this, and have sealed to them this fruit, I will come by you into Spain. 29 And I am sure that, when I come unto you, I shall come in the fulness of the blessing of the gospel of Christ. 30 Now I beseech you, brethren, for the Lord Jesus Christ's sake, and for the love of the Spirit, that ye strive together with me in [your] prayers to God for me; 31 That I may be delivered from them that do not believe in Judaea; and that my service which [I have] for Jerusalem may be accepted of the saints;

All born again believers who belong to Jesus Christ are Saints.

1 John 2:1 (KJV)1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

Dead Christians do not hear our prayers, nor are they advocates or intercessors for the living. Dead Christians are "absent from the body and present with the Lord", but they can do nothing for us. Living Christians can pray for each other, and God loves to hear our prayers. Jesus Christ Himself is our advocate, so we don't pray to or through men.

Romans 8:26-27 (KJV)26 ?Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. 27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what [is] the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to [the will of] God.

Born again Believers have the Holy Spirit of God living in their hearts as a guide and comforter. Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit of God are our intercessors - not men. We pray to God in the Holy Name of Jesus Christ - not to or through men. It's wonderful that living Saints pray for each other, and I give thanks that God hears us - not men.

 

[BrendanMark]

Many of Saints were not perfect people in many ways, and often is the story of overcoming their own sins and flaws (think St Augustine as an obvious "for instance") by the grace of God through Christ and the Holy Spirit.

But if someone expresses unorthodox views or preaches Arian or other heresy then they obviously cannot be considered a saint of the church, however admired they might be by the world. Not everyone who claims to be a Christian follows Christ and some follow less perfectly than others, so obviously not everyone gets to be one, as not every one who swings a cricket bat is Sir Donald Bradman.

But that goes against the individual rights and self-esteem promoted by today's culture, where everyone gets a gold star regardless of whether they deserve it or not. Every self-professed Chirstian is a saint? Please, get over yourselves and learn some Christian humility.

 

[ebia]

Against drinking

• Holy Martyr Boniface & the Righteous Aglais (June 5)

Really? I wonder if he knows he's pictured on the sign of a very decent pub in Credition (his birthplace).

 

[ebia]

Many of Saints were not perfect people in many ways, and often is the story of overcoming their own sins and flaws (think St Augustine as an obvious "for instance") by the grace of God through Christ and the Holy Spirit.

But if someone expresses unorthodox views or preaches Arian or other heresy then they obviously cannot be considered a saint of the church, however admired they might be by the world. Not everyone who claims to be a Christian follows Christ and some follow less perfectly than others, so obviously not everyone gets to be one, as not every one who swings a cricket bat is Sir Donald Bradman.

But that goes against the individual rights and self-esteem promoted by today's culture, where everyone gets a gold star regardless of whether they deserve it or not. Every self-professed Chirstian is a saint? Please, get over yourselves and learn some Christian humility.

Every Christian is a saint, even the very imperfect ones in Corinith. "Saint" is not an extra-good level of Christian, it simply means one set apart for God - ie any one of God's covenant people.

Now, among Christians there will always be some particularly worth looking up to and taking an example from, and some less so. But that's not what the word 'saint' should signify.

 

[BrendanMark]

If you like to consider yourself equivalent to St Maximus, St John, St Thomas etc then all you do is prove my point.

Try humility sometime. It's even Christian!

 

[nChrist]

If you like to consider yourself equivalent to St Maximus, St John, St Thomas etc then all you do is prove my point.

Try humility sometime. It's even Christian!

This has nothing to do with humility. "Saint" is the term used by the Holy Bible in referring to true believers in Jesus Christ. The "traditions of men" are many times not in agreement with the Holy Bible, and the Holy Bible is the final authority - not men. Men aren't Saints because men say they are. God knows the hearts of those who are His because the Holy Spirit of God lives in their hearts. These are "Saints" according to the Holy Bible - not a vote by men.


Good News!

The Holy Bible is the WORD OF GOD!

God The Father, God The Son, God The Holy Spirit - The Creator Of All Things!

 

[SpiritDriven]

Many of Saints were not perfect people in many ways, and often is the story of overcoming their own sins and flaws (think St Augustine as an obvious "for instance") by the grace of God through Christ and the Holy Spirit.

But if someone expresses unorthodox views or preaches Arian or other heresy then they obviously cannot be considered a saint of the church, however admired they might be by the world. Not everyone who claims to be a Christian follows Christ and some follow less perfectly than others, so obviously not everyone gets to be one, as not every one who swings a cricket bat is Sir Donald Bradman.

But that goes against the individual rights and self-esteem promoted by today's culture, where everyone gets a gold star regardless of whether they deserve it or not. Every self-professed Chirstian is a saint? Please, get over yourselves and learn some Christian humility.

Grace is unmerited Reward or it is not Grace.....

The accomplishments of Prior Saints was not of their doing.

Any good works they did, where prepared before hand by God for them to walk in them....they cannot take any credit for it....all the Glory goes to God...all of it.

Men may praise....but what is praised in the sight of man....is loathed in the sight of God.

It is God who set the level playing field....not Man.

God treats everybody the same....God even decides who believes and who does not believe....and one day....all....will believe.
Scripture even declares that every knee will bow, every tounge will swear allegiance.

It is true that not every who picks up a bat is Donald Bradman....but bear in mind that ability at Sport has nothing to do with Salvation, or being a Saint in Christ Jesus....solely and only because you believe in Jesus.

All will be Saints one day.....

 

[nChrist]

It is true that not every who picks up a bat is Donald Bradman....but bear in mind that ability at Sport has nothing to do with Salvation, or being a Saint in Christ Jesus....solely and only because you believe in Jesus.

All will be Saints one day.....

The fires of hell will be full, and none of them will be Saints. If you had said there won't be any atheists in hell, I would understand. The devil can quote Scripture, but he won't be a Saint either.

 

[boswd]

Apostles are cited numerous times in the Bible as people in authority and as a gift of the Spirit. Saints are not, they're just there. I wonder why Catholics make such a big deal of them.

You do realize the it's not just the Catholics that make , as how you say it "A big deal out of them". right?

 

[Thekla]

Seemed appropriate to post this here:

I asked the elder, "Many times, elder, I hear people interpreting the same passage of the Gospel in a different manner. How can we know which is the correct interpretation? Is there a measure, a certain criterion we can use to judge?" He answered, "The Saints interpret the Gospel with their life."
​

- Elder Paisios of the Holy Mountain __________________

 

[Zebra1552]

You do realize the it's not just the Catholics that make , as how you say it "A big deal out of them". right?

I want to hear from a Catholic on this for my own reasons.

 

[Dark_Lite]

Thanks, Polycarp. I appreciate it.

Catholics seem to put them on a pedestal, like they're more special than other Christians because of what they accomplished, whereas in the Bible EVERYONE is a saint and there's equality. There's recognition, then there's going overboard and causing problems.

What is your definition of "putting on a pedestal" vs "recognition?" Plenty of people throughout secular history are "put on pedestals" and even have holidays dedicated to them, yet we don't place them higher on the metaphysical food chain. People who do great things are remembered. It's pretty much that simple.

 

[Zebra1552]

What is your definition of "putting on a pedestal" vs "recognition?" Plenty of people throughout secular history are "put on pedestals" and even have holidays dedicated to them, yet we don't place them higher on the metaphysical food chain. People who do great things are remembered. It's pretty much that simple.

Remembered, yes, and correct me if I am wrong here, DL, but don't Catholics ask saints to intercede for them? Hold pendants of them for 'good luck' (or is that just in movies )?

Recognition is acknowledging that the things they did were good. Putting on a pedestal would be going beyond that and asking these people to intercede for you even though they're dead and in heaven. Why not ask, say, your dead aunt to pray for you? Why the saint of *insert patron saint here*?

 

[MrPolo]

Why do we need saints?

The same reason Paul "needed" them.

Romans 15:30 Now I beseech you, brethren, for the Lord Jesus Christ's sake, and for the love of the Spirit, that ye strive together with me in your prayers to God for me

Colossians 4:3 At the same time, pray also for us, that God may open to us a door for the word, to declare the mystery of Christ, on account of which I am in prison.

1 Thess 5:25 Brothers, pray for us.

2 Thess 3:1 Finally, brothers, pray for us, that the word of the Lord may speed ahead and be honored, as happened among you.

 

[Zebra1552]

The same reason Paul "needed" them.

Romans 15:30 Now I beseech you, brethren, for the Lord Jesus Christ's sake, and for the love of the Spirit, that ye strive together with me in your prayers to God for me

Colossians 4:3 At the same time, pray also for us, that God may open to us a door for the word, to declare the mystery of Christ, on account of which I am in prison.

1 Thess 5:25 Brothers, pray for us.

2 Thess 3:1 Finally, brothers, pray for us, that the word of the Lord may speed ahead and be honored, as happened among you.

Why ask the dead to pray? Why not the living so they can be edified when prayer is answered?

 

[Dark_Lite]

Remembered, yes, and correct me if I am wrong here, DL, but don't Catholics ask saints to intercede for them? Hold pendants of them for 'good luck' (or is that just in movies )?

Recognition is acknowledging that the things they did were good. Putting on a pedestal would be going beyond that and asking these people to intercede for you even though they're dead and in heaven. Why not ask, say, your dead aunt to pray for you? Why the saint of *insert patron saint here*?

So your real problem is not that Saints are recognized, but that people ask Saints for intercession. For one, Saints are in heaven and closer to God. They are transformed into perfect holiness from being in heaven. I think the real question is why not ask people who are in heaven, in the face of God, to intercede for you? Why would physical death prevent someone from praying?

As for people who pray to dead relatives, there are some people who do it. However, unless your relative happens to be declared a Saint, you don't really have any way of knowing that the person is in heaven or not, so it sounds like a shady thing to do. It's really more of a leap of faith I guess, in that regard. I personally would not ask a dead relative for intercession. I would pray for them, however.

 

[MrPolo]

Why ask the dead to pray? Why not the living so they can be edified when prayer is answered?

So you think asking another member of the Body of Christ for intercession is ok....you just wish to limit it only to those members who are not fully united with God. Correct?