Saints

[Dark_Lite]

Well, it's not like patron choices are completely arbitrary. The choices are generally based on the Saint's life: who they interacted with, what they did, etc.

 

[Dorothea]

I still don't understand how people can know who is a Saint with a capital S, whether it is tied to Apostolic succession or not.
And how on earth do they know which Saint should be the patron of what?
I mean, how do we know that the people up in Heaven aren't sighing and shaking their heads because we've attributed something to them which isn't their particular 'area'? Or perhaps they all have to have a discussion where Saint Gill says 'Oh dear, those people down there have just burdened me with the job of being patron of drowning goldfish, whereas really I'd be much better at doing egg collectors...Saint Bob, you'd be good at the goldfish - could I swap with you..I know you're not that keen on the egg thingy?
Sorry, I know that sounds facetious..but it all still seems slightly puzzling to me.

From what I read, the eye witnesses who lived with and knew the Saint to some extent that spoke of the Saint's goodness, holiness, and the light of Christ flowing from him/her that these witnesses noted and wrote or told by mouth to others. So it becomes known through that way (at least that's what I've read....maybe there are other ways as well).

 

[tansy]

Well, it's not like patron choices are completely arbitrary. The choices are generally based on the Saint's life: who they interacted with, what they did, etc.

Well, yes, another poster said something similar...but even so. Apparently there's a patron saint of computers...was that saint around nowadays..how would he be chosen for that, if not?

Just supposing you were bestowed the honour of being a patron saint, what sort of thing do you reckon you'd be patron of?
i can't imagine what I could be patron of, were I so chosen. Interesting thought

 

[Dorothea]

Well, yes, another poster said something similar...but even so. Apparently there's a patron saint of computers...was that saint around nowadays..how would he be chosen for that, if not?

Just supposing you were bestowed the honour of being a patron saint, what sort of thing do you reckon you'd be patron of?
i can't imagine what I could be patron of, were I so chosen. Interesting thought

Well, the person doesn't know he/she is a Saint. They are busy striving to be loving to all and Christlike. When somebody flatters them, they brush it off, humbly. These wonderful people who became Saints become them (declared Saints) long after they have passed their earthly lives. The Church declares them Saints after so many years through some means of documentation and eye witness records, I believe. The Saint is also known for whatever their special talent/gift was during his/her life on Earth (again, eye witness documentation or word of mouth), and that's how they are given a patron of whatever it might be.

edit: Just to add, I don't know any Orthodox Patron Saints of computers.

 

[Zebra1552]

I would imagine it would build most people up. Why does that suddenly nullify saintly prayer?

Wouldn't it be just as important as 'non saintly' prayer though?

See previous response about being tied to apostolic succession and all that. It is a doctrine heavily tied to the concepts of Tradition and the Deposit of Faith. Also, just want to make sure we're all aware of the saint vs Saint description.

I don't care for such a distinction. It's not in the Bible. It is made up by an organization.

 

[Dark_Lite]

Wouldn't it be just as important as 'non saintly' prayer though?

Would it?

I don't care for such a distinction. It's not in the Bible. It is made up by an organization.

That gets into the whole Sola Scriptura debate. I'm sure you know the position of the apostolic churches on that issue.

 

[Zebra1552]

Would it?

I believe so. But maybe that's because I'm a sucker for building people up. Who knows?

That gets into the whole Sola Scriptura debate. I'm sure you know the position of the apostolic churches on that issue.

My brain's fried, at the moment, focused on an econ test tomorrow. Refresh my memory?

 

[E.C.]

Don't be a smart aleck.

I'm not. Thanks to Thekla for citing the verse.

Why not contemplate upon the questions set forth in my last post?

 

[Zebra1552]

I'm not. Thanks to Thekla for citing the verse.

Why not contemplate upon the questions set forth in my last post?

Because you are indeed being a smart aleck. I meant those who are physically dead.

 

[Thekla]

Because you are indeed being a smart aleck. I meant those who are physically dead.

Are those with Christ (in Heaven) dead or alive ?

 

[E.C.]

Because you are indeed being a smart aleck. I meant those who are physically dead.

Nope, this is probably one of the most sincere moments I've had in my life.

 

[Zebra1552]

Are those with Christ (in Heaven) dead or alive ?

They've died to live. So your question is a false dilemma. It's both.

 

[nChrist]

God's Word makes this discussion very simple. We don't pray to men, nor do we pray through men. We pray directly to God in the Name of Jesus Christ and have the Holy Spirit of God living in our hearts to help us pray if we ask Him to.

Praying to a man would get you nothing and would not be Biblical - not even close. If we seek forgiveness for our sins from God - we pray to God - not men. There's a big problem here with the vanity of man when some men try to set themselves up as mediators between God and man. There are no men as mediators between God and man. Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit of God are the ONLY advocates and intercessors for mankind. As physically living Christians in this short life, we can pray for each other, but we pray to God - not men. We can and should ask those we have wronged for forgiveness, but we confess our sins to God and ask for forgiveness - not some man who thinks that he's an intermediary between God and man. Men trying to elevate themselves to the level of Jesus Christ or the Holy Spirit of God are horribly wrong. Man cannot give forgiveness on behalf of God.

Bluntly, vain men need to humble themselves before God and stop trying to act like they have the power of God. Man can give man's forgiveness, but only God can give God's forgiveness. For the same reasons, we pray to God - not men. It's God who has the authority and power - not men. God's Word is final, and it really doesn't make any difference what men say or what men vote on. A wise man seeks the will of God - not men. Regardless of what some horribly vain men say, no man serves as God on earth. Further, no man has been given power or authority to make doctrine for God. God has already done that in His Word, and His Word will endure forever.

Bluntly, teaching that is contrary to the Holy Bible is false teaching. God could care less how many men get together and vote. Further, no book serves as an addition or subtraction to God's Word. Finally, the traditions of men are wrong if they aren't in accordance with God's Word. The number of men in agreement would mean nothing. The proclaimed status of the men would also mean nothing. Hint: God is the Master and final authority on everything. It's man's place to yield - not dictate. Man needs to remember his place.

 

[Rhamiel]

Catholics and Orthodox ask for people who are alive to pray for us too, we have prayer groups and at mass we have petitions and we ask friends and family to pray for us, but we also ask those in heaven to pray for us too, why narrow it down to just those on earth?
also the question about the patron saint of computers, St. Isidore made a database of books, dictonaries and encyclopedias, he was counted as one of the most learned men of his time, he was a bishop and wrote many history books, since he was known for systematicly collecting information he is the patron of the computer and the internet
also, kind of odd thing, if you are killed by something you will probably become the parton of that thing... not always, but yeah, sometimes, it is odd

 

[ebia]

Catholics and Orthodox ask for people who are alive to pray for us too, we have prayer groups and at mass we have petitions and we ask friends and family to pray for us, but we also ask those in heaven to pray for us too, why narrow it down to just those on earth?

Speaking as someone somewhat agnostic on the issue, it seems to me the points against are:
1. I know that someone alive is capable of hearing my request for prayer and to some extend responding appropriately. I have no reason to think that everyone who is dead suddenly becomes capable of listening simulatenously to everyone in the world and praying for each of them individually. I see no indication that people suddenly become infinite beings just because they are dead.
2. Asking by pastor, say, to pray for me looks and feels very different from praying to God himself. There is little danger of confusing the two. That boundary becomes much more blurred, particularly when prayers to saints either replace praying to God oneself, or move beyond simple requests consisely made into fully blown devotionals.
3. There is a danger that one starts to see the saints as more approachable than God and to effectively deny the whole point of the incarnation.

Now, not everyone falls into those traps, but historically a vast number of people have and many still do, which given that there is absolutely no scriptural support for the practice (unlike asking those still on earth to pray for you) gives rise to the reformation rejection of the practice.

It may or may not be theologically garbage, but the dangers certainly outweigh any advantage in the practice.

 

[alphonsus12]

Speaking as someone somewhat agnostic on the issue, it seems to me the points against are:
1. I know that someone alive is capable of hearing my request for prayer and to some extend responding appropriately. I have no reason to think that everyone who is dead suddenly becomes capable of listening simulatenously to everyone in the world and praying for each of them individually. I see no indication that people suddenly become infinite beings just because they are dead.
2. Asking by pastor, say, to pray for me looks and feels very different from praying to God himself. There is little danger of confusing the two. That boundary becomes much more blurred, particularly when prayers to saints either replace praying to God oneself, or move beyond simple requests consisely made into fully blown devotionals.
3. There is a danger that one starts to see the saints as more approachable than God and to effectively deny the whole point of the incarnation.

Now, not everyone falls into those traps, but historically a vast number of people have and many still do, which given that there is absolutely no scriptural support for the practice (unlike asking those still on earth to pray for you) gives rise to the reformation rejection of the practice.

It may or may not be theologically garbage, but the dangers certainly outweigh any advantage in the practice.

If we were to simply deny any teaching that pose a potential danger we lose several of the most central mysteries of the faith. The belief in the Holy Trinity poses the risk of polytheism, which has long been a charge leveled at Christianity by Muslims and many non-Christian faiths. The mystery of the Incarnation runs the risk on two extremes, either that Jesus Christ is not fully God, and simply a man (Arianism) or that Jesus Christ is God, but is in no way man (Docetism). The possibility of abuse should not prevent use.

 

[Standing Up]

As Scripture states, the prayer of a holy person is very powerful. And our personalities lend themselves well to certain empathies. For instance, I probably have a greater capacity to understand the suffering of a graduate student's studies than I would a sailor or scuba diver. My prayer for the former comes out of me with a more personal, empathetic vigor. Thus, I am a "better" patron for scholars than scuba divers.

Of course, whoever said earlier that you can pray to God for anything is correct. But we of course saw Paul ask others to pray for him (eg Rm 15:30), so that is where the idea of praying for each other comes from.

What's the difference between asking someone to pray for them and praying to a saint?

 

[ebia]

If we were to simply deny any teaching that pose a potential danger we lose several of the most central mysteries of the faith. [/quote[
It's more than a potential danger - it's a peripheral teaching that has resulted in vast numbers of Christians through history loosing sight of far more central beliefs, particularly in the Western Church (less so in Eastern Orthodoxy so far as I'm aware).

The belief in the Holy Trinity poses the risk of polytheism, which has long been a charge leveled at Christianity by Muslims and many non-Christian faiths. The mystery of the Incarnation runs the risk on two extremes, either that Jesus Christ is not fully God, and simply a man (Arianism) or that Jesus Christ is God, but is in no way man (Docetism). The possibility of abuse should not prevent use.

Sorry, but neither of those are close enough analogies to be useful. Those are central concepts of the faith, not perephiral ones, concepts rather than practices, there is no adequate alternative (one can adequately no pray to saints, one cannot adequately ignore the incarnation), and in the case of the Trinity the supposed danger doesn't actually result in practice.

Sorry, but you'll need to find much closer analogies than either of those to make your point.

This is a peripheral teaching which, whether or not it is theoretically accurate, the practice of which has done and still does more harm than good. If you have a congregation with a really sound Christology both in the heads and in their hearts first, then you can probably get away with it - but are likely to find that they find it pointless.

 

[Mary of Bethany]

I still don't understand how people can know who is a Saint with a capital S, whether it is tied to Apostolic succession or not.
And how on earth do they know which Saint should be the patron of what?
I mean, how do we know that the people up in Heaven aren't sighing and shaking their heads because we've attributed something to them which isn't their particular 'area'? Or perhaps they all have to have a discussion where Saint Gill says 'Oh dear, those people down there have just burdened me with the job of being patron of drowning goldfish, whereas really I'd be much better at doing egg collectors...Saint Bob, you'd be good at the goldfish - could I swap with you..I know you're not that keen on the egg thingy?
Sorry, I know that sounds facetious..but it all still seems slightly puzzling to me.

Tansy,

From the Orthodox point of view (I can't speak for Catholicism), being a "patron of something" really has no meaning, and isn't important. It's just that *some* Saints were particularly known for overcoming or dealing with certain things in their earthly lives, so people will ask their intercessions when they, too, are dealing with such things. But it has no real importance, and who cares if there's a "patron Saint of baseball"? (Just making that up. ) There are no "rules" about praying only to a certain Saint for a certain thing - that would be ridiculous!

The important part of "patron" is that each of us chooses a Saint we feel drawn to (mine is Mary of Bethany, sister of Martha and Lazarus), so she is my "patron Saint", and I ask for her intercessions often.

The other thing is that, again - in Orthodoxy - the Church doesn't "declare" Saints. God, in His wisdom, allows some to be shown after their death, to be Saints so we know they are in Heaven. When the people in the Church realize that someone has indeed been shown to be a Saint, then they will begin to be recognized as such by the Church as a whole.

Saints are those who we *know*, because God has shown us, have finished the race victoriously. We also believe that there are many, many other Saints in Heaven who, for whatever reasons, God has not made known to us on earth. Those we call Saints are just those God has chosen to make known to us.

And of course, our hope in Christ is that the "saints" on earth will become "Saints" in Heaven - whether we ever become known to those on Earth as "Saints" or not.

Mary

 

[tansy]

also the question about the patron saint of computers, St. Isidore made a database of books, dictonaries and encyclopedias, he was counted as one of the most learned men of his time, he was a bishop and wrote many history books, since he was known for systematicly collecting information he is the patron of the computer and the internet
also, kind of odd thing, if you are killed by something you will probably become the parton of that thing... not always, but yeah, sometimes, it is odd

Interesting...I can see from what you say, the point of having him as patron saint ... only I was thinkingabout that more from the technological aspect...perhaps there should be a saint for the technology of computers, not just the information.
Yes, that does seem odd that people would be a sainnt of the thing that killed them - really the mind starts to boggle at the ramifications of the whole concept of patron saints...I have to admit that I'm not totally convinced by the idea.