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saints of this and that (moved from GT)

CaliforniaJosiah

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NOTE: Even if what you quoted is Scripture, it's entirely moot to anything - in this thread or any other thread at CF known to me. It says NOTHING about the sense of hearing among dead people or saints in heaven praying for anyone. I know that. You know that.


[Just ANOTHER reason why the "fight" of a few Catholic fundamentalists for the RCC's unique post-Trent "set" of Scriptures is moot. In the rare, rare, ever-so-rare cases of when a Catholic quotes them, it's moot and just doesn't matter]


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Catherineanne

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NOTE: Even if what you quoted is Scripture, it's entirely moot to anything - in this thread or any other thread at CF known to me. It says NOTHING about the sense of hearing among dead people or saints in heaven praying for anyone. I know that. You know that.


[Just ANOTHER reason why the "fight" of a few Catholic fundamentalists for the RCC's unique post-Trent "set" of Scriptures is moot. In the rare, rare, ever-so-rare cases of when a Catholic quotes them, it's moot and just doesn't matter]


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I am flattered to be mistaken for a Catholic fundamentalist, whatever that may be, but I am a plain and simple Anglican, who just happens to have an unexpurgated Bible.

Call me old fashioned, but I see no reason to take Luther's word for excising the word of God, just because he felt like it.

:)
 
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C

Chrysostoma

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Catherineanne said:
I am flattered to be mistaken for a Catholic fundamentalist, whatever that may be, but I am a plain and simple Anglican, who just happens to have an unexpurgated Bible.

Call me old fashioned, but I see no reason to take Luther's word for excising the word of God, just because he felt like it.

:)

I was just thinking to myself, huh, I'm pretty sure she's not a Roman Catholic :)

Sent from my iPhone using CF
 
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CaliforniaJosiah

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I am flattered to be mistaken for a Catholic fundamentalist, whatever that may be, but I am a plain and simple Anglican, who just happens to have an unexpurgated Bible.

Nor did I call you one, I simply noted that Catholic funamentalists tend to bring this up. Anglicans do not accept the Apocrypha as equally Scripture - at least so such have repeatedly informed me.

But you have chosen to ignore the point. The quote you offered has nothing to do with this thread (or any other at CF, to my knowledge). It says NOTHING about the sense of hearing among dead people and/or if saints in heaven pray for those on earth or offer to God our petition requests to them. It's moot. (As tends to be all the quotes from these disputed books).




Call me old fashioned, but I see no reason to take Luther's word for excising the word of God, just because he felt like it.


Moot to this discussion. But yes - two denominations known to me have officially acted on these disputed books: the RCC and the Anglican Communion. Luther personally chose to include the RCC set (not the Anglican one) in his German translation but like the Anglican Church, shared his view that they are not equal to the others - it was his PERSONAL opinion (unlike the Anglican Church), the Lutheran Confessions say NOTHING about them, one way or the other. But again, that's moot to ANYTHING here. Your quote from what your denomination regards to be Scripture but inferior is moot - it has nothing to do with anything at issue in this thread (or any other known to me).






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Stryder06

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And as I said above, God is not under time. He does not have to wait for the second coming before he gets to stand in eternity with the saints. That is just silly. Time is part of creation, and God does not answer to any part of his creation.

Sorry, I missed this part of your response. It's not about God being "out of time", but about God adhering to a schedule which He created. And you're missing the point that the saints mentioned in Revelation 7 are the saints that come out of great tribulation. That great tribulation is the same tribulation foretold of in Daniel. That time has not yet come. The sealing has not yet been completed and as such, the saints are no before His throne serving Him day and night.

So, on whose authority was your version edited, given the warning about taking away from Scripture?
smile.gif


God. Remember, it's His book ;)
 
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Catherineanne

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Sorry, I missed this part of your response. It's not about God being "out of time", but about God adhering to a schedule which He created.

Schedules are in time.

Here it is again; God is not subject to time. Christ was subject to time while he was mortal, but is no longer. God has never himself been subject to time, except in the Incarnation.

^_^^_^^_^
 
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Catherineanne

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Nor did I call you one, I simply noted that Catholic funamentalists tend to bring this up. Anglicans do not accept the Apocrypha as equally Scripture - at least so such have repeatedly informed me.

But you have chosen to ignore the point. The quote you offered has nothing to do with this thread (or any other at CF, to my knowledge). It says NOTHING about the sense of hearing among dead people and/or if saints in heaven pray for those on earth or offer to God our petition requests to them. It's moot. (As tends to be all the quotes from these disputed books).

Moot to this discussion. But yes - two denominations known to me have officially acted on these disputed books: the RCC and the Anglican Communion. Luther personally chose to include the RCC set (not the Anglican one) in his German translation but like the Anglican Church, shared his view that they are not equal to the others - it was his PERSONAL opinion (unlike the Anglican Church), the Lutheran Confessions say NOTHING about them, one way or the other. But again, that's moot to ANYTHING here. Your quote from what your denomination regards to be Scripture but inferior is moot - it has nothing to do with anything at issue in this thread (or any other known to me).

.

You do realise that 'moot' doesn't mean what you think it does? :) You use it as a synonym for 'irrelevant', and that is not its meaning.

Anyway, irrespective of that, the communion of saints is an understood and accepted part of the tradition and belief of the Church. If your particular part of the church doesn't get the communion of saints, then I am sorry about that, but that does not make what I and others are saying wrong. It simply isn't.

Any attempt to put the communion of saints into the future necessitates putting God himself under time, and subject to it. There is no Scripture whatever to make God subject to time, and plenty to confirm that he is outside it. Eternity is where God is; outside time. And that is where the communion of saints is.

When Daniel and John have their visions they are not looking into the future, they are looking through the veil which separates the world of time from the eternal realm, and into eternity. The saints in eternity are as described in Daniel and Revelation; they stand before the throne and pray for the world, and they add their prayers to ours. No Christian ever prays alone; we all pray alongside the whole company of heaven; saints and angels before the Throne of God.

Those who have eyes to see, let them see. :)
 
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Stryder06

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Schedules are in time.

Here it is again; God is not subject to time. Christ was subject to time while he was mortal, but is no longer. God has never himself been subject to time, except in the Incarnation.

^_^^_^^_^

You can keep saying that but that doesn't make it true. How does the scripture put it? "...Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand. ." Rev 22:10.
 
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Dorothea

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If you claim so.


I don't understand the conversation, we're speaking about us Christians talking to dead Christians. The story in Luke shows that the dead is communicating with each and and at no point does it show that the dead is communicating with the living, so I'm not even sure, what this conversation is supposed to mean.
The story doesn't have to do with the Christians who have reposed talking to those who haven't yet. That's not what the story is about. Maybe that's why there's the confusion.


I'm sorry, when it comes to scripture, I don't start believing things because I think that's how it should happen. People seem to think that "Oh, God can do anything so therefore what I think should be done is what is actually being doing". And while it's true that God can do anything, it doesn't mean that God does everything that we think of. If God wanted us to know that we should ask for those who have passed on to intercede for us, I'm pretty sure He would have told us. Otherwise, we're just creating more traditions and we're making God say things that He didn't say. The Apostle Paul warns us not to think beyond what is written in 1 Corinthians 4:6, and I'll take that advice.
True, but since I used Scripture verses to no avail, I figured I'd talk to you heart to heart and through experience(s) and see if you understood what I was saying then. It appears you do not. Again, what it comes down to is the interpretations of the Church Fathers you disagree with because your interpretation doesn't line up with them. I realize that. Do you?
 
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Dorothea

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Do you realize that what you've just done here is express a tradition? Your tradition is that only the Apostles and disciples, only the men who wrote the Bible or were alive when Christ walked the earth, were inspired by the Holy Spirit and that the men who came after them in the Church, who were responsible for preserving the writings and forming what we now know of as the Bible, were not. Your tradition is that it doesn't matter what interpretation of the Bible the men who came after the Apostles held when they decided which books were Holy Scripture and which writings were not. This is a new tradition, an innovation.

Why is your tradition to be believed over one that is 1000+ years older?

Why would the men who decided what the Bible is comprised of get right which books are Holy Scripture when they apparently did not interpret those Scriptures correctly, according to you?
Good question. :)
 
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Dorothea

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What makes her "most holy"? What if I sent you a message saying "Most Holy Dorothea, please pray for me"? Wouldn't that strike you as odd?
Because the angel Gabriel said she was - most blessed (paraphrasing). There are many holy people, but only one that is the mother of Christ God. :)

There are many holy things - the Bible, relics, altar, people, etc. What is God's is holy.


You didn't say "Most Holy friend" :p
^_^ I don't think they've reached it yet, and I know I haven't!! :sorry: But we are all icons of Christ. :)


It does. I guess I just can't get past the whole "saint's being in heaven" thing. ;)
yes, I know, but you tried. :p :hug:
 
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sunlover1

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It does. I guess I just can't get past the whole "saint's being in heaven" thing. ;)
It's because we don't even know who's where.
Better NOT to pray to someone who's died,
(Not that the dead hear you anyhow)
But it does not bring glory to our God and
He's a jealous God.

Praying to a 'saint' is not at all the same as asking
a friend to pray for you.

Now I ask YOU to pray in agreement with ME for those
who have been deceived in this area.
;)
Open the eyes of our hearts Lord!
Amen
:prayer::prayer:
 
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Stryder06

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Because the angel Gabriel said she was - most blessed (paraphrasing). There are many holy people, but only one that is the mother of Christ God. :)

There are many holy things - the Bible, relics, altar, people, etc. What is God's is holy.
"Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women."

Sorry, don't see "Most Holy" in there.
 
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Dorothea

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"Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women."

Sorry, don't see "Most Holy" in there.
We see highly favored and blessed among women as also meaning holy. :)
 
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Dorothea

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It's because we don't even know who's where.
Better NOT to pray to someone who's died,
(Not that the dead hear you anyhow)
But it does not bring glory to our God and
He's a jealous God.

Praying to a 'saint' is not at all the same as asking
a friend to pray for you.

Now I ask YOU to pray in agreement with ME for those
who have been deceived in this area.
;)
Open the eyes of our hearts Lord!
Amen
:prayer::prayer:
I'm sorry, but I find your saying we have been deceived in asking others to pray for us as insensitive and insulting, sun. :(

Maybe if you could understand that we are One body and that there is no separation spiritually. Because Christ said not even death separates us from Him - His Body is us.

A lone Christian is not a Christian, according to EO teachings.
 
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Dorothea

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Here's some historical information on the Intercession of the Saints:



The fact that Christians ask the prayers of saints and their intercession is prefigured in the New Testament. St. Paul asks the Christian Ephesians, Thessalonians, Colossians and Romans to pray for him (Ephes. 6: 19, Thesal. 5: 25; Colos. 4: 3, and Rom. 15: 30-31). In every Liturgy, we ask God the Father to accept, on our behalf, "the prayers and the intercession" of all the Saints who now live in heaven. The Fathers of the Church also accept as a matter of course the prayers and the intercession of all the saints.


In one of his letters, St. Basil explicitly writes that he accepts the intercession of the apostles, prophets and martyrs, and he seeks their prayers to God (Letter 360). Then, speaking about the Forty Martyrs, who suffered martyrdom for Christ, he emphasizes that "they are common friends of the human race, strong ambassadors and collaborators in fervent prayers" (Chapter 8). St. Gregory of Nyssa asks St. Theodore the Martyr "to fervently pray to our Common King, our God, for the country and the people" (Encomium to Martyr Theodore). The same language is used by St. Gregory the Theologian in his encomium to St. Cyprian. St. John Chrysostom says that we should seek the intercession and the fervent prayers of the saints, because they have special "boldness" (parresia), before God. (Gen. 44: 2 and Encomium to Julian, Iuventinus and Maximinus, 3).

The Lives of the Saints — Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America
 
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CaliforniaJosiah

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the communion of saints is an understood and accepted part of the tradition and belief of the Church. If your particular part of the church doesn't get the communion of saints, then I am sorry about that, but that does not make what I and others are saying wrong. It simply isn't.

Any attempt to put the communion of saints into the future necessitates putting God himself under time, and subject to it. There is no Scripture whatever to make God subject to time, and plenty to confirm that he is outside it. Eternity is where God is; outside time. And that is where the communion of saints is.


1. Your response has nothing whatsoever to the quote you made from me. It's difficult to have a discussion when what is said is entirely ignored.


2. I too embrace the concept of the communion of saints, but it would be most helpful if we could keep to the subject. Your comment has nothing to do with "saints of this and that" or to the other issue of whether all believers - in heaven and on earth - can hear the prayer requests (verbalized or not) of all 2 billion believers currently on earth, or if those now in heaven or purgatory do extend to God all our prayer requests which their ears hear us make.





When Daniel and John have their visions they are not looking into the future, they are looking through the veil which separates the world of time from the eternal realm, and into eternity. The saints in eternity are as described in Daniel and Revelation; they stand before the throne and pray for the world, and they add their prayers to ours.

PERHAPS, but nothing you quoted from that disputed document so indicates that those in heaven hear our requests and extend them to the Father for us.





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CaliforniaJosiah

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Here's some historical information on the Intercession of the Saints:



The fact that Christians ask the prayers of saints and their intercession is prefigured in the New Testament. St. Paul asks the Christian Ephesians, Thessalonians, Colossians and Romans to pray for him (Ephes. 6: 19, Thesal. 5: 25; Colos. 4: 3, and Rom. 15: 30-31).


There's no indication in any of those Scriptures that the persons to whom Paul is requesting prayers were dead and in heaven or purgatory.




In one of his letters, St. Basil explicitly writes that he accepts the intercession of the apostles, prophets and martyrs, and he seeks their prayers to God (Letter 360).
To welcome the prayers of those now in heaven is entirely unrelated to the affirmation that Christians can hear the prayer requests of all believers (including those not verbalized) and that they extend those specific requests to the Father. My grandfather MAY be praying in a general sense for me (although there is NOTHING - absolutely nothing whatsoever - that confirms or suggests such). That's altogether and entirely unrelated to the dogmatic affirmation that I can ask him to pray for a new Corvette and ERGO he (and all those in heaven) will petition God to give me a new Corvette. It's entirely and wholly unrelated to whether my grandfather (or great, great uncle or St. Martin Luther) "hear" my prayers and offer my requests to God. Apples and oranges.





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Dorothea

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This is also a good explanation and good read for those interested in understanding where we EO are coming from:

What basis is there for asking the saints to pray for us?

As we have seen, the Church holds in high esteem the memory of exceptionally holy Christians, who during their earthly lives helped many of their fellow believers both physically and spiritually. Therefore, it should be no surprise that she encourages the faithful to seek the continued intercession of such individuals after their passage into the next world. An example of such an appeal is in a hymn to Saint Sergius of Radonezh, a very beloved monk and spiritual father to many in fourteenth-century Russia: "The Holy Spirit took up His abode in thee and operating there adorned thee with beauty. O thou who hast boldness to approach the Holy Trinity, remember thy flock gathered by thy wisdom and never forget it, visiting thy children, according to thy promise, O holy father Sergius".9 A similar appeal is made to Saint Herman, Orthodox evangelizer of Alaska in the early 1800's: "Having one desire, to bring unbelieving people to the One God, thou wert all things to all men: teaching the Holy Scripture and a life in accordance with it, instructing in handicrafts, and being an intercessor before the authorities, nursing men in everything like children, that thus thou mightest bring them to God; and do not leave us who sing to thee".10 Since death has been conquered by Christ, why should not such persons continue their ministry to us after they have joined Christ in heaven? A Russian Orthodox priest in the early twentieth century once chided those who do not believe in a true fellowship of prayer with the departed: "A handful of soil, a tombstone, have become [for you] unconquerable obstacles for communion with those who have departed from the world".11 Countless Christians of all lands and ages have given testimony about receiving help from God through the prayers and ministrations of saints. This is a strong indication that God is well pleased with their prayers for us and ours to them. Scripture attests to the sanctity of such prayers in the Book of Revelation: "The four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints" (Revelation 5:8).

But doesn't the Bible say, "For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus" (1 Timothy 2:5)? Why do we need to ask the saints to pray for us?

Yes, Christ Jesus, both Man and God, is the only One who has reconciled fallen humanity to God the Father by His reconciling and redeeming life, death, and resurrection. But this does not mean that we never ask others to pray for us! We ask the departed saints for their prayers in the same way we ask our fellow Christians on earth to intercede for us. Since the departed remain alive in Christ, why should they cease to express their love and concern for us through prayer? Freed from the concerns of day-to-day survival on earth, unencumbered with the sinful tendencies of the flesh, and far more intimately knit together with Christ than we are, the departed are able to intercede for us much more frequently and powerfully than our friends on earth can pray for us. Those in heaven are able to do continuously what we on earth long to do, but usually only manage to do weakly and sporadically. No wonder, then, that Christians from the earliest days have asked the departed for their prayers. This in no way means that we can only reach Christ by going through the saints, as if they are absolutely necessary intermediaries between us and God. Such an idea is completely foreign to Orthodoxy. Saint Paul clearly states, "Seeing then that we have a great High Priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God . . . let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need" (Hebrews 4:14-16). But just because we pray, on our own, directly to God, does not mean that we never ask other people for their prayers! Indeed, we are commanded many times in the Scriptures to pray for one another. Saint Paul says to Timothy, "Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men" (1 Timothy 2:1; see also Colossians 4:2-4, Ephesians 6:18, etc.). And we are taught by our Lord Jesus that the power of prayer is greater when more people are praying together: "Again I say to you that if two of you agree on earth concerning anything that they ask, it will be done for them by My Father in heaven" (Matthew 18:19). So, just as we feel comforted and strengthened when we ask friends, family, and Church members here on earth to intercede for us in a time of need, how much more can we feel comforted and strengthened when we also ask the Church in heaven for her prayers! (And we should not neglect to ask the angels for their prayers as well, since they are expressly sent to us as "ministering spirits" [Hebrews 1:14; also Psalm 91:11 and Isaiah 63:9]). Asking the saints, both those on earth and those in heaven,12 for their prayers, and asking the angels, too, can all be understood simply as gathering the greatest amount of prayer support possible in a time of need!

Can the saints answer our prayers directly? Is it within their power to grant our requests?

The prayers of our brothers and sisters in Christ here on earth are only effective insofar as God answers them. It is the same with the intercessions of the saints in heaven for us. They can never answer prayers of their own accord or in their own power; they can only beseech Christ on our behalf. To imagine that prayer to the saints means that they can grant our requests apart from Christ is a totally unacceptable idea according to Orthodox theology and practice. So when we pray to the saints, the understanding is always clear that we are asking them to help us by praying to God, and not by their own power or actions apart from Him. For example, a hymn to Saint Nina (who as a young woman in the early fourth century brought the Christian Faith to Georgia, in southern Eurasia) concludes, "with the angels thou hast praised in song the Redeemer, praying constantly for us that Christ may grant us His grace and mercy".13 But as to their ability to hear our requests for their prayers, we ought not to limit the powers of spiritual perception of those who are now so intimately linked with God. If we on earth experience the help of the Holy Spirit praying in us and through us (Romans 8:26, 27), how much more must the Spirit's help be present in the saints in heaven? And we should remember that in heaven, in the spiritual realm, there are none of the limitations of time, space, or physical mortality which so restrict us as we live on earth.

Saints Michael and Gabriel Orthodox Church
 
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