saints of this and that (moved from GT)

[LOCO]

I'm off for a while. I don't think my posts are being digested by many here, to at least understand why we do what we do, so there is nothing beneficial being done here.

I'm off to have some peace and prayer.

Dorothea,


Don't take it to heart. Remember Christ said we must suffer for our faith. Although most Christians intepret that to mean non-Christian vs Christian, I think Jesus was also thinking about Christian on Christian persecution.

United we stand, divided we fall.

The outright judgement I see on this thread from some is unchristian. The ironic thing is some call you evil, condemn you to hell and then say God Bless You at the end. From the same tongue comes blessings and curses.

Even if I thought someone else's practice of their faith is unscriptural, I would not dare to call them evil or condemn them to hell. Only God can judge that.

If anyone considers himself religious and yet does not keep a tight rein on his tongue, he deceives himself and his religion is worthless. James1:26

Watch, pray and be faithful. Be not hasty in judging one another, put kind constructions where you can, and where you cannot, be silent. Saint Mary Mackillop




Blessings

 

[MetanoiaHeart]

You mean that I shouldn't trust the writings of the ones who had walked with God, saw His back and lead His people out of Egypt, prophecies to the nations to turn from their wicked ways, for those who were taught by Christ were eyewitnesses to the things that were happening and for those called to be Apostles of Christ? You mean, I should trust those who came after them more than I should trust those who were given the Holy Spirit to specifically write down what God wanted to say.

Is that what you were trying to tell me? We're you also trying to tell me that I should give more credit to those men who "canonized the bible" because they had to labor over material that was already written? Even if those men who canonized scripture had to stifle through a lot of material...they had only 300 years of history to go through, they knew what was being taught and what was not. It's not like when they saw the "Book of Judas" they labored hard over whether or not it should be considered Scripture. There were false teachings and writing that Paul speaks of and then gave them a way to identify the writings that were from him.

I think you completely missed my point.

I'm typing from my phone, so I can't try to explain myself better now. Maybe tomorrow.

 

[daydreamergurl15]

I think you completely missed my point.

I'm typing from my phone, so I can't try to explain myself better now. Maybe tomorrow.

No, I got your point. I was making one of my own. I'll trust those who walked with God, those inspired man through the Holy Spirit to write the word, over anyone who came after.

 

[LOCO]

.... a lot of attempts to connect dots there. But you have entirely evaded the issue. While it MAY (M.A.Y.) be that those in heaven pray for us (we have zero evidence that such is the case), that's entirely, wholly, completely unrelated to whether they specifically hear OUR requests and ERGO pass THEM on to the Father. Or that such means there are specific saints for specific persons and vocations.

The rest of your post doesn't seem to have anything to do with the issue.








As Scripture indicates, those in heaven are aware of the prayers of those on earth. This can be seen, for example, in Revelation 5:8, where John depicts the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of "golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints." But if the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers. They are aware of our petitions and present them to God by interceding for us.

Some might try to argue that in this passage the prayers being offered were not addressed to the saints in heaven, but directly to God. Yet this argument would only strengthen the fact that those in heaven can hear our prayers, for then the saints would be aware of our prayers even when they are not directed to them!

In any event, it is clear from Revelation 5:8 that the saints in heaven do actively intercede for us. We are explicitly told by John that the incense they offer to God are the prayers of the saints. Prayers are not physical things and cannot be physically offered to God. Thus the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God mentally. In other words, they are interceding.

Not only do those in heaven pray with us, they also pray for us. In the book of Revelation, we read: "[An] angel came and stood at the altar [in heaven] with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God" (Rev. 8:3-4).

And those in heaven who offer to God our prayers aren’t just angels, but humans as well. John sees that "the twenty-four elders [the leaders of the people of God in heaven] fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints" (Rev. 5:8). The simple fact is, as this passage shows: The saints in heaven offer to God the prayers of the saints on earth.



Just a sidebar, a POV that has not been discussed.


For many Christians praying/singing is their highest form of worship.

For Catholics the Mass is their highest form of worship.



For Catholics prayer is mainly a tool of communication between heaven and earth. Saints are those that are physically dead but still spiritually alive in Christ. Catholics do not view themselves as being separated from those in Heaven. There is a constant flow of communication via prayer, visions, miracles and visits e.g. Jesus visiting Sister Faustina

Many non-Catholics become outraged with the notion that we are praying to someone other than God because for them that is their highest form of worship.

We all pray to God but we believe the more people you have praying for you, the better. And so we ask the Saints who have completed the journey to pray for us.

 

[GreekOrthodox]

Im not sure if anyone has actually posted a typical prayer for a saint to see what exactly we're being accused of...

These are the two hymns for St. John Chrysostom, one of the greatest liturgists and preachers in the Byzantine Empire, and my own patron when I converted from Lutheranism.

Grace shining forth from thy mouth like a beacon hath illumined the universe, and disclosed to the world treasures of uncovetousness, and shown us the heights of humility; but while instructing us by thy words, O Father John Chrysostom, intercede with the Word, Christ our God, to save our souls.

You received divine grace from Heaven, and by your own lips taught all to worship the One God in Trinity. All-blessed, venerable John Chrysostom, deservedly, we praise you for you are a teacher clearly revealing things divine.

So in both of these hymns we praise him for what he did as a preacher and liturgist, and we ask for him to pray for our salvation. So how is asking the living saints, to pray for our salvation is wrong in your eyes?

So if "...neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord." what separates us from praying for each other, both on this side and the other side of life?

 

[LOCO]

Im not sure if anyone has actually posted a typical prayer for a saint to see what exactly we're being accused of...

These are the two hymns for St. John Chrysostom, one of the greatest liturgists and preachers in the Byzantine Empire, and my own patron when I converted from Lutheranism.

Grace shining forth from thy mouth like a beacon hath illumined the universe, and disclosed to the world treasures of uncovetousness, and shown us the heights of humility; but while instructing us by thy words, O Father John Chrysostom, intercede with the Word, Christ our God, to save our souls.

You received divine grace from Heaven, and by your own lips taught all to worship the One God in Trinity. All-blessed, venerable John Chrysostom, deservedly, we praise you for you are a teacher clearly revealing things divine.

So in both of these hymns we praise him for what he did as a preacher and liturgist, and we ask for him to pray for our salvation. So how is asking the living saints, to pray for our salvation is wrong in your eyes?

So if "...neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord." what separates us from praying for each other, both on this side and the other side of life?

A good point you raise here Greek Orthodox.

The Saints belong to all Christians not just Catholics, EO etc...

I think there is misunderstanding also of the term 'pray' when it is used towards Saints.

To Pray:

1. means 'a form of worship';giving thanks to God

2. can also mean 'to beg' 'to ask for' something as in Old English someone may say to a nobleman 'My Lord, I pray thee for assistance etc...' they are not worshipping the person, they are asking/begging for something.



When Catholics/EO's pray to Saints, they are asking for them to pray for us in second sense.



Prayer of St Jude - Patron Saint of Lost Causes

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]St. Jude, glorious Apostle, faithful servant and cousin of Jesus, the name of the traitor has caused you to be forgotten by many, but the true Church invokes you universally as the Patron of things despaired of; pray for me, that finally I may receive the consolations and the succor of Heaven in all my necessities, tribulations, and sufferings, particularly (here make your request), and that I may bless God with the Elect throughout Eternity. Amen. [/FONT]

 

[MetanoiaHeart]

No, I got your point. I was making one of my own. I'll trust those who walked with God, those inspired man through the Holy Spirit to write the word, over anyone who came after.

Then your point was to accuse me of saying things I did not say? Because if you understood my point, you would not have responded that way unless you were deliberately twisting my words to mean something they most certainly did not mean.

 

[daydreamergurl15]

@MetanoiaHeart What you said was this:

Do you realize that what you've just done here is express a tradition? Your tradition is that only the Apostles and disciples, only the men who wrote the Bible or were alive when Christ walked the earth, were inspired by the Holy Spirit and that the men who came after them in the Church, who were responsible for preserving the writings and forming what we now know of as the Bible, were not. Your tradition is that it doesn't matter what interpretation of the Bible the men who came after the Apostles held when they decided which books were Holy Scripture and which writings were not. This is a new tradition, an innovation.

Why is your tradition to be believed over one that is 1000+ years older?

Why would the men who decided what the Bible is comprised of get right which books are Holy Scripture when they apparently did not interpret those Scriptures correctly, according to you?

What i find interesting is that you were the one who said something I did not say. I did not say that those men did not have the Holy Spirit, you added that all by yourself, in fact, you added a lot of those things when describing "my tradition", of which I didn't know I had. I said, when replying to Chrsostoma, that I didn't care about their interpretation of scripture because I don't know their interpretation, my beliefs were molded by what I read in scripture.

I responded to you in a sarcastic tone. I understood your point and still reponded the way I did to say that I will most emphatically side with scripture--because those men had first hand account of what was happening, over anyone who came after them. Those men who canonized scripture did just that. They didn't have a commentary that was included in Scripture, I don't know what they believed. I would assume it would be what they have in scripture. I'm assuming that's what they were being taught.

But let's not get side-tracked, we're speaking about praying to saint this or that...Funny, those scriptures that those men canonized, doesn't mention to us that we should pray/ask/intercede/(whatever the proper saying is) to Christians that have physically died. In fact, a "saint" in the Scripture that those men canonized teaches us that a saint is God's people...nothing more or less than that, anyone who is a Christian is a saint by definition. When people in Scripture, that those men canonized, prayed, it's only to God. We don't have Scripture telling us, teaching us, explaing to us that they prayed/ask/intercede/(whatever the proper saying is) to those who have pasted on.

Please, don't get mad and think that I twisted your sayings when your very first reply to me was you doing the exact same thing that you have accused me of doing.

 

[LOCO]

@MetanoiaHeart What you said was this:


What i find interesting is that you were the one who said something I did not say. I did not say that those men did not have the Holy Spirit, you added that all by yourself, in fact, you added a lot of those things when describing "my tradition", of which I didn't know I had. I said, when replying to Chrsostoma, that I didn't care about their interpretation of scripture because I don't know their interpretation, my beliefs were molded by what I read in scripture.

I responded to you in a sarcastic tone. I understood your point and still reponded the way I did to say that I will most emphatically side with scripture--because those men had first hand account of what was happening, over anyone who came after them. Those men who canonized scripture did just that. They didn't have a commentary that was included in Scripture, I don't know what they believed. I would assume it would be what they have in scripture. I'm assuming that's what they were being taught.

But let's not get side-tracked, we're speaking about praying to saint this or that...Funny, those scriptures that those men canonized, doesn't mention to us that we should pray/ask/intercede/(whatever the proper saying is) to Christians that have physically died. In fact, a "saint" in the Scripture that those men canonized teaches us that a saint is God's people...nothing more or less than that, anyone who is a Christian is a saint by definition. When people in Scripture, that those men canonized, prayed, it's only to God. We don't have Scripture telling us, teaching us, explaing to us that they prayed/ask/intercede/(whatever the proper saying is) to those who have pasted on.

Please, don't get mad and think that I twisted your sayings when your very first reply to me was you doing the exact same thing that you have accused me of doing.

As Scripture indicates, those in heaven are aware of the prayers of those on earth. This can be seen, for example, in Revelation 5:8, where John depicts the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of "golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints." But if the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers. They are aware of our petitions and present them to God by interceding for us.

Some might try to argue that in this passage the prayers being offered were not addressed to the saints in heaven, but directly to God. Yet this argument would only strengthen the fact that those in heaven can hear our prayers, for then the saints would be aware of our prayers even when they are not directed to them!

In any event, it is clear from Revelation 5:8 that the saints in heaven do actively intercede for us. We are explicitly told by John that the incense they offer to God are the prayers of the saints. Prayers are not physical things and cannot be physically offered to God. Thus the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God mentally. In other words, they are interceding.

Not only do those in heaven pray with us, they also pray for us. In the book of Revelation, we read: "[An] angel came and stood at the altar [in heaven] with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God" (Rev. 8:3-4).

And those in heaven who offer to God our prayers aren’t just angels, but humans as well. John sees that "the twenty-four elders [the leaders of the people of God in heaven] fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints" (Rev. 5:8). The simple fact is, as this passage shows: The saints in heaven offer to God the prayers of the saints on earth.


Noone is arguing that not all christians are saints (small s)
Not all dead Christians are Saints (capital S) - only those Christians who led an exceptional holy life are called Saints.

Just like not all tennis players are Roger Federer, Pete Sampras, or Rafael Nadal or Rod Laver. They are the benchmarks. Throughout history other tennis players have wanted play like them, so they train like them, they mimic their moves etc.

Christians also need role models. Yes, Jesus is the perfect role-model, but he is perfect, we would go literally insane trying to be exactly like him. We have to make do with lesser human role models throughout history, like the Saints.

 

[daydreamergurl15]

As Scripture indicates, those in heaven are aware of the prayers of those on earth. This can be seen, for example, in Revelation 5:8, where John depicts the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of "golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints." But if the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers. They are aware of our petitions and present them to God by interceding for us.

Some might try to argue that in this passage the prayers being offered were not addressed to the saints in heaven, but directly to God. Yet this argument would only strengthen the fact that those in heaven can hear our prayers, for then the saints would be aware of our prayers even when they are not directed to them!

In any event, it is clear from Revelation 5:8 that the saints in heaven do actively intercede for us. We are explicitly told by John that the incense they offer to God are the prayers of the saints. Prayers are not physical things and cannot be physically offered to God. Thus the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God mentally. In other words, they are interceding.

Not only do those in heaven pray with us, they also pray for us. In the book of Revelation, we read: "[An] angel came and stood at the altar [in heaven] with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God" (Rev. 8:3-4).

And those in heaven who offer to God our prayers aren’t just angels, but humans as well. John sees that "the twenty-four elders [the leaders of the people of God in heaven] fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints" (Rev. 5:8). The simple fact is, as this passage shows: The saints in heaven offer to God the prayers of the saints on earth.

Revelations 5:8-14
8 Now when He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. 9 And they sang a new song, saying:


“ You are worthy to take the scroll,
And to open its seals;
For You were slain,
And have redeemed us to God by Your blood
Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,
10 And have made us kings and priests to our God;
And we shall reign on the earth.”

11 Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne, the living creatures, and the elders; and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands, 12 saying with a loud voice:


“ Worthy is the Lamb who was slain
To receive power and riches and wisdom,
And strength and honor and glory and blessing!”

13 And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying:


“ Blessing and honor and glory and power
Be to Him who sits on the throne,
And to the Lamb, forever and ever!”

14 Then the four living creatures said, “Amen!” And the twenty-four elders fell down and worshiped Him who lives forever and ever.​

Remind me again, in these verses, where does it tell us that the saints were in heaven and in the presence of God and that they interceded for us?
Question: In the passage of scripture in Revelations 5:8, who have the harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints?

Noone is arguing that not all christians are saints (small s)
Not all dead Christians are Saints (capital S) - only those Christians who led an exceptional holy life are called Saints.

Just like not all tennis players are Roger Federer, Pete Sampras, or Rafael Nadal or Rod Laver. They are the benchmarks. Throughout history other tennis players have wanted play like them, so they train like them, they mimic their moves etc.

Christians also need role models. Yes, Jesus is the perfect role-model, but he is perfect, we would go literally insane trying to be exactly like him. We have to make do with lesser human role models throughout history, like the Saints.

We have different levels of Christians? Little s and big S?

 

[Dorothea]

LOCO, thank you for your kind words. In defense of my friend, sunlover, I do think she was just speaking from her beliefs and what she feels on this. I do think the language was a bit harsh, but I could turn the same thing around and say the devil can deceive people by putting up obstacles for them to not want to communion with the Saints in heaven because it is both a comfort and very powerful to have so many praying for you who are in God's presence. The devil doesn't want the extra back up for us here on earth, so why not throw a wrench in there and put an idea in people's minds - some type of fear or whatnot that asking those in heaven to pray for us is a no-no. It's not right. It's unscriptural, it's the temptation of the enemy himself. yada, yada, yada.

But no matter what anybody says, I've had an experience - a blessed one - in which the Saints took a large burden off of my shoulders in praying for my son, and I will NEVER forget it, nor stop thanking them for their constant and continuous prayers for him. The reason why I know it's not demonic or evil - it bore good fruit. It brought peace, it brought joy, it brought me closer to God. And other things I will not get into. The point is, you can never have too many people praying for you, especially those in heaven.

Im not sure if anyone has actually posted a typical prayer for a saint to see what exactly we're being accused of...

These are the two hymns for St. John Chrysostom, one of the greatest liturgists and preachers in the Byzantine Empire, and my own patron when I converted from Lutheranism.

Grace shining forth from thy mouth like a beacon hath illumined the universe, and disclosed to the world treasures of uncovetousness, and shown us the heights of humility; but while instructing us by thy words, O Father John Chrysostom, intercede with the Word, Christ our God, to save our souls.

You received divine grace from Heaven, and by your own lips taught all to worship the One God in Trinity. All-blessed, venerable John Chrysostom, deservedly, we praise you for you are a teacher clearly revealing things divine.

So in both of these hymns we praise him for what he did as a preacher and liturgist, and we ask for him to pray for our salvation. So how is asking the living saints, to pray for our salvation is wrong in your eyes?

So if "...neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord." what separates us from praying for each other, both on this side and the other side of life?

Because they think saints in heaven can't hear us. I still want to know why people apply earthly existence to how it would be in heaven, when it's nothing even close to here. His Kingdom is not on this Earth. There's no limitations of hearing, seeing, etc. in heaven. They are united with Christ, filled with the Spirit, and united in the Spirit with all His Body. There are no obstacles or boundaries, other than ours here on earth, which is why we cannot hear nor see as they can.

Thanks for sharing that beautiful hymn. St. John, please pray for us!

 

[ivebeenshown]

There's no limitations of hearing, seeing, etc. in heaven. They are united with Christ, filled with the Spirit, and united in the Spirit with all His Body.

This is the most beautiful way I have seen it put.

 

[Tzaousios]

No, I got your point. I was making one of my own. I'll trust those who walked with God, those inspired man through the Holy Spirit to write the word, over anyone who came after.

Perhaps because these men "who came after" were contaminated by their Catholicism or Orthodoxy? Please don't tell me you think the twelve apostles were Pentacostal or Church of God...

 

[ivebeenshown]

I'll trust those who walked with God, those inspired man through the Holy Spirit to write the word, over anyone who came after.

So what, you're saying you can talk to the Apostles to verify that you are correctly understanding their teachings?

 

[daydreamergurl15]

Perhaps because these men "who came after" were contaminated by their Catholicism or Orthodoxy? Please don't tell me you think the twelve apostles were Pentacostal or Church of God...

Acts 11:26
And when he had found him, he brought him to Antioch. So it was that for a whole year they assembled with the church and taught a great many people. And the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch

1 Peter 4:16
Yet if anyone suffers as a Christian, let him not be ashamed, but let him glorify God in this matter.​

I assume the disciples and apostles were followers of Christ.

 

[LinuxUser]

I prayed to St. Lucy to intercede for my vision when it went south, and it has returned to were it was. Even though my patron Saint is St. Christopher I consider St. Lucy my second patron saint

Just because some say you can't ask Christians in Heaven to pray for us doesn't mean it's true. Those Christians deprive themselves of a richer Christian experience

 

[bbbbbbb]

Perhaps because these men "who came after" were contaminated by their Catholicism or Orthodoxy? Please don't tell me you think the twelve apostles were Pentacostal or Church of God...

Maybe you could say they belonged to the Church of Christ. Oops. That can't be because the Church of Christ is another denomination. Chuck that one.

How about if you say they belonged to the Christian Church? Oh no! Not again. Yet another denomination.

Okay, let's just say that they belonged to the Catholic Church. Dear me, I've stumbled into another denomination that excludes other parts of Christ's Church.

Very well, one final stab, here. How about saying they belonged to the First Orthodox Church of Jerusalem?

 

[daydreamergurl15]

So what, you're saying you can talk to the Apostles to verify that you are correctly understanding their teachings?

1 Corinthians 2:4-16
4 And my speech and my preaching were not with persuasive words of human wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, 5 that your faith should not be in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.

6 However, we speak wisdom among those who are mature, yet not the wisdom of this age, nor of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. 7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the ages for our glory, 8 which none of the rulers of this age knew; for had they known, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
9 But as it is written:
“ Eye has not seen, nor ear heard,
Nor have entered into the heart of man
The things which God has prepared for those who love Him.”

10 But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.

13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one. 16 For “who has known the mind of the LORD that he may instruct Him?” But we have the mind of Christ.
​

 

[ivebeenshown]

Yeah... I've read that. More than once.

Thing is, we both believe in Jesus Christ, yet we still disagree on matters. So posting stuff like that without even a personal commentary is rather futile unless you're trying to give off an air of "I'm spiritual so I understand Scripture flawlessly and if you don't agree with me you must not be spiritual."

 

[Tzaousios]

Acts 11:26
And when he had found him, he brought him to Antioch. So it was that for a whole year they assembled with the church and taught a great many people. And the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch

1 Peter 4:16
Yet if anyone suffers as a Christian, let him not be ashamed, but let him glorify God in this matter.
​

I assume the disciples and apostles were followers of Christ.

Yes, but how do you know there weren't also Christians "who came after," who were also from Antioch, among those who canonized Scripture? That leaves you with the conundrum that they must be contaminated with "catholicism" compared to the apostles and first Christians.