saints of this and that (moved from GT)

[sunlover1]

I'm sorry, but I find your saying we have been deceived in asking others to pray for us as insensitive and insulting, sun.

Don't let the devil trick you into offense. We have completely
different beliefs, this is no new thing.

Love never lies and this is what I believe, and so IMO, it's TRUTH....
Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud.
5It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs.
6Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth.
7It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

I am sorry that you find what I believe insulting and insensitive.
Watching the devil trick loved ones is insulting to me and so I
share what I know that one might be blessed.
If my words don't bless you, then disregard them... as I have done
with some of yours ...

Maybe if you could understand that we are One body and that there is no separation spiritually. Because Christ said not even death separates us from Him - His Body is us.

I do indeed believe that the body is one.
But I do not believe that the dead are able to hear our prayers.
Humans will never be omnipresent.
God OTOH, can hear you and me and all of our friends at the same
time.. but "saints" who MAY or may not be "In Heaven"... cannot.

A lone Christian is not a Christian, according to EO teachings.

Well I'd not make a good EO.
But I do believe that a lone Christian is not a wise Christian.
I just don't believe He's not A Christian...


God bless you as you grow in Christ.

 

[Dorothea]

There's no indication in any of those Scriptures that the persons to whom Paul is requesting prayers were dead and in heaven or purgatory.

who said anything about purgatory? We don't believe in that. Anyhow, the understanding of the Church Fathers is that there is no difference in asking those in the Church in heaven or on Earth for their prayers.

To welcome the prayers of those now in heaven is entirely unrelated to the affirmation that Christians can hear the prayer requests of all believers (including those not verbalized) and that they extend those specific requests to the Father. My grandfather MAY be praying in a general sense for me (although there is NOTHING - absolutely nothing whatsoever - that confirms or suggests such). That's altogether and entirely unrelated to the dogmatic affirmation that I can ask him to pray for a new Corvette and ERGO he (and all those in heaven) will petition God to give me a new Corvette. It's entirely and wholly unrelated to whether my grandfather (or great, great uncle or St. Martin Luther) "hear" my prayers and offer my requests to God. Apples and oranges.

He says he seeks the prayers of those in heaven. Did you not see that part?

 

[sunlover1]

We see highly favored and blessed among women as also meaning holy.

I think that these are actually two different things
To be blessed is to be empowered by God.
To be Holy is to be set aside.

 

[Dorothea]

Don't let the devil trick you into offense. We have completely
different beliefs, this is no new thing.

Love never lies and this is what I believe, and so IMO, it's TRUTH....
Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud.
5It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs.
6Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth.
7It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

I am sorry that you find what I believe insulting and insensitive.
Watching the devil trick loved ones is insulting to me and so I
share what I know that one might be blessed.
If my words don't bless you, then disregard them... as I have done
with some of yours ...

People see what they want to see. I have nothing to add other than you do not understand the hearts of us with regards to our prayer life.

I do indeed believe that the body is one.
But I do not believe that the dead are able to hear our prayers.
Humans will never be omnipresent.
God OTOH, can hear you and me and all of our friends at the same
time.. but "saints" who MAY or may not be "In Heaven"... cannot.

read this what I posted above. This is why I don't agree with your opinion on the Saints in heaven:

The prayers of our brothers and sisters in Christ here on earth are only effective insofar as God answers them. It is the same with the intercessions of the saints in heaven for us. They can never answer prayers of their own accord or in their own power; they can only beseech Christ on our behalf. To imagine that prayer to the saints means that they can grant our requests apart from Christ is a totally unacceptable idea according to Orthodox theology and practice. So when we pray to the saints, the understanding is always clear that we are asking them to help us by praying to God, and not by their own power or actions apart from Him. For example, a hymn to Saint Nina (who as a young woman in the early fourth century brought the Christian Faith to Georgia, in southern Eurasia) concludes, "with the angels thou hast praised in song the Redeemer, praying constantly for us that Christ may grant us His grace and mercy".13 But as to their ability to hear our requests for their prayers, we ought not to limit the powers of spiritual perception of those who are now so intimately linked with God. If we on earth experience the help of the Holy Spirit praying in us and through us (Romans 8:26, 27), how much more must the Spirit's help be present in the saints in heaven? And we should remember that in heaven, in the spiritual realm, there are none of the limitations of time, space, or physical mortality which so restrict us as we live on earth.

Well I'd not make a good EO.
But I do believe that a lone Christian is not a wise Christian.
I just don't believe He's not A Christian...

Ok.

God bless you as you grow in Christ.

Yes, while I'm being deceived by the devil. Thanks so much.

 

[Dorothea]

I'm off for a while. I don't think my posts are being digested by many here, to at least understand why we do what we do, so there is nothing beneficial being done here.

I'm off to have some peace and prayer.

 

[MetanoiaHeart]

I'm off for a while. I don't think my posts are being digested by many here, to at least understand why we do what we do, so there is nothing beneficial being done here.

I'm off to have some peace and prayer.

I've certainly appreciated your posts and pray that they reach some people who are reading along with the thread.

 

[Dorothea]

I've certainly appreciated your posts and pray that they reach some people who are reading along with the thread.

Well, thank you, Metanoia. I don't expect everyone to agree with our praxis. I just ask that maybe some could understand what we are saying, even if they disagree and not imply that we are doing a prayer practice of the evil one.

Lord, have mercy on us all.

 

[patience7]

I have a question: If the saints are already in heaven, or anyone for that matter - What need is there of a resurrection?

Also,: In Ecclesiastes it says the dead "know not any thing, that their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing under the sun." and "for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest." - Such clear verses regarding death - How is it that there are still arguments when God is so clear on this subject? I know that there are verses that are not as clear regarding this subject and we do not disregard them by any means but we shouldn't take and base doctrine on things that are not so clear. We need further study because all scripture should be in agreement throughout the word of God. For example the scripture in Ecclesiastes regarding death should agree with all scripture regarding death - the scripture concerning the resurrection should agree with all scripture concerning the resurrection.

I don't know if I am making any sense or not! I know what I am trying to say but don't know if its coming across as that!

 

[sunlover1]

Yes, while I'm being deceived by the devil. Thanks so much.

Dorothea. We're all deceived by the devil..
Please, for your own sake, don't make this personal because it's not.
The enemy loves to cause offense in the body.. (Division)

The enemy hates it when brothers walk in mercy and love.
When we walk in love we gain strength against the REAL enemy
(which is not me btw)

Soon as we get into offense (skandalon) BAM..
It's a TRAP (See below) Don't let it bite you


Skandelon.. greek word translated to offense.
ska/ndalon [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]probably from a derivative of (2578)[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]Transliterated Word[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]Phonetic Spelling[/FONT] [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]Skandalon[/FONT] [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]skan'-dal-on[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]Parts of Speech[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]TDNT[/FONT] [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]Noun Neuter[/FONT] [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]7:339,1036[/FONT] [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]Definition[/FONT] [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva] [/FONT]

1. [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]
   [*] the movable stick or trigger of a trap, a trap stick
   
   1. a trap, snare
   2. any impediment placed in the way and causing one to stumble or fall, (a stumbling block, occasion of stumbling) i.e. a rock which is a cause of stumbling
   3. fig. applied to Jesus Christ, whose person and career were so contrary to the expectations of the Jews concerning the Messiah, that they rejected him and by their obstinacy made shipwreck of their salvation
   [/FONT]

 

[Rick Otto]

We ask the departed saints for their prayers in the same way we ask our fellow Christians on earth to intercede for us.

Except that when we ask our fellow Christians on earth we either know they are hearing us or not, & they can respond to us the same we ask of them. In other words it is not alike at all.
It is these easy equations that cater to our imaginations.

 

[Rick Otto]

Well, thank you, Metanoia. I don't expect everyone to agree with our praxis. I just ask that maybe some could understand what we are saying, even if they disagree and not imply that we are doing a prayer practice of the evil one.

Lord, have mercy on us all.

Can you show me it is a prayer practice of one apostle?

 

[Dorothea]

Dorothea. We're all deceived by the devil..
Please, for your own sake, don't make this personal because it's not.
The enemy loves to cause offense in the body.. (Division)

The enemy hates it when brothers walk in mercy and love.
When we walk in love we gain strength against the REAL enemy
(which is not me btw)

Soon as we get into offense (skandalon) BAM..
It's a TRAP (See below) Don't let it bite you


Skandelon.. greek word translated to offense.
ska/ndalon [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]probably from a derivative of (2578)[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]Transliterated Word[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]Phonetic Spelling[/FONT] [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]Skandalon[/FONT] [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]skan'-dal-on[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]Parts of Speech[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]TDNT[/FONT] [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]Noun Neuter[/FONT] [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]7:339,1036[/FONT] [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]Definition[/FONT] [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva] [/FONT]

1. [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]
   [*] the movable stick or trigger of a trap, a trap stick
   
   1. a trap, snare
   2. any impediment placed in the way and causing one to stumble or fall, (a stumbling block, occasion of stumbling) i.e. a rock which is a cause of stumbling
   3. fig. applied to Jesus Christ, whose person and career were so contrary to the expectations of the Jews concerning the Messiah, that they rejected him and by their obstinacy made shipwreck of their salvation
   [/FONT]

TBH, I did take it personally and felt you were judging my heart and my relationship with God just because I have a relationship with His Body (on earth and in heaven). Yes, I probably shouldn't have gotten defensive, and of course the devil likes division. I also agree that the devil tempts us all the time. But I don't believe asking people to pray for us is a deception, but rather is pleasing to God and shows our love for Him and our love for each other. I am fine with your disagreeing with the fact that we see the Saints undivided and you do, in "death," I just ask that you please be a bit more respectful of people's prayer life. I would not question the way you pray to God in private. That is between you and He and is special. It is the same for me and for others that share my praxis in prayer.

 

[Dorothea]

Can you show me it is a prayer practice of one apostle?

We believe when the Apostles said to pray for each other and talking that we can never be separated from Christ, even in death, and that we are One Body on earth and in Heaven, undivided - no separation from Him - tells us that through Him, we are united and pray for each other wherever we are. This is the interpretations given to us by the disciples of the Apostles and those who learned from the disciples of the Apostles.

It's always been the practice of the Ancient Church... Here's some interesting info on this:

After a Protestant enters an Orthodox church, he will see immediately in front of him, people lighting candles and kissing icons, which are paintings of Jesus, the saints, and of holy events. This may be the first real shock for him. Protestants have been trained to abhor any use of religious images and any connections with them, except for crosses, stained-glass windows, and a few other icon-like depictions. Watching Orthodox people kissing icons is to a Protestant no different than worshipping statues or pagan deities. But the practice of kissing icons goes back to apostolic times, in the catacombs of Rome, where the bodies of dead Christians were entombed with paintings of their faces or of events of their lives depicted on the corpses or walls near them. The first Christians would kiss these paintings and pray for them and ask them to pray for the Christians on earth. Paintings and inscriptions of these practices can still be seen on catacomb walls today. Furthermore, kissing was a normal function of everyday life, as a sign of friendship, much like shaking hands in modern times. But to an early Christian it was also a sign of union with other Christians in the Body of Christ. But most importantly, the early Christians did not believe in a division between Heaven and earth. They believed that the dead saints were still alive, as Jesus teaches in the Gospels, that God is the God of the living, not of the dead. The first Christians considered heavenly beings to be members of the same Body of Christ, that the Church consisted of living and dead Christians, not as though death was a separation, but that both the saints on earth and the saints in Heaven were not divided; they were all alive in Christ. Therefore, kissing icons was treated as a symbolic act of preserving a literal communion between Heaven and earth in the Body of Christ. It was a way to impress on the minds and souls of all true Christians that in Jesus Christ, there is no death and no separation between the saints in Heaven and Christians on earth. This is why there was never a problem with praying to the saints and asking them to pray to God for Christians on earth. Just as Christians on earth pray for each other, so was it accepted without question to ask the saints in Heaven to pray to God for the saints on earth. Indeed, since apostolic times it was never an issue to kiss icons and commune with the saints in Heaven. It only became an issue after the Muslims in the 7th century conquered major regions of Christianity. Islam abhors any use of images in worship, and because Islam demands the persecution of non-Muslims under their domination, many Christians felt pressured to compromise the Faith a little bit by rejecting the use of icons in order to appease the Muslims or because of actual belief in this new doctrine. But the apostolic practice of icons prevailed.


First Introduction to Eastern Orthodoxy

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

We believe when the Apostles said to pray for each other and talking that we can never be separated from Christ, even in death, and that we are One Body on earth and in Heaven, undivided - no separation from Him - tells us that through Him, we are united and pray for each other wherever we are. This is the interpretations given to us by the disciples of the Apostles and those who learned from the disciples of the Apostles.

.... a lot of attempts to connect dots there. But you have entirely evaded the issue. While it MAY (M.A.Y.) be that those in heaven pray for us (we have zero evidence that such is the case), that's entirely, wholly, completely unrelated to whether they specifically hear OUR requests and ERGO pass THEM on to the Father. Or that such means there are specific saints for specific persons and vocations.



The rest of your post doesn't seem to have anything to do with the issue.




.

 

[Dorothea]

.... a lot of attempts to connect dots there. But you have entirely evaded the issue. While it MAY (M.A.Y.) be that those in heaven pray for us (we have zero evidence that such is the case), that's entirely, wholly, completely unrelated to whether they specifically hear OUR requests and ERGO pass THEM on to the Father. Or that such means there are specific saints for specific persons and vocations.



The rest of your post doesn't seem to have anything to do with the issue.




.

Those attempts as you put it were done by those who were disciples of the Apostles.

We were discussing asking the Saints in heaven to pray for us, and history shows this goes back to Apostolic times.

 

[Lion King]

Those attempts as you put it were done by those who were disciples of the Apostles. But why do I waste my time. You believe what you believe, and I will believe what I believe. There is no reason for me to talk to someone who's got walls up. Good day.

Had any apostle done this, nobody would have believed them (and rightfully so), even Jesus Christ Himself used Scriptures to explain the hidden mysteries of God.

Word of advice: you want people to listen to the word of God, use the word of the LORD itself.

 

[Dorothea]

Had any apostle done this, nobody would have believed them (and rightfully so), even Jesus Christ Himself used Scriptures to explain the hidden mysteries of God.

Word of advice: you want people to listen to the word of God, use the word of the LORD itself.

I already used Scripture, and it was ignored or was said what they believed it to be saying, so it's been basically a waste of time.

I'm done. Have a good day, Lion.

 

[daydreamergurl15]

True, but since I used Scripture verses to no avail, I figured I'd talk to you heart to heart and through experience(s) and see if you understood what I was saying then. It appears you do not. Again, what it comes down to is the interpretations of the Church Fathers you disagree with because your interpretation doesn't line up with them. I realize that. Do you?

Sorry, I didn't catch the verses that you gave to me. What post message were they in, I'll go back and read them.

 

[daydreamergurl15]

Do you realize that what you've just done here is express a tradition? Your tradition is that only the Apostles and disciples, only the men who wrote the Bible or were alive when Christ walked the earth, were inspired by the Holy Spirit and that the men who came after them in the Church, who were responsible for preserving the writings and forming what we now know of as the Bible, were not. Your tradition is that it doesn't matter what interpretation of the Bible the men who came after the Apostles held when they decided which books were Holy Scripture and which writings were not. This is a new tradition, an innovation.

Why is your tradition to be believed over one that is 1000+ years older?

Why would the men who decided what the Bible is comprised of get right which books are Holy Scripture when they apparently did not interpret those Scriptures correctly, according to you?

You mean that I shouldn't trust the writings of the ones who had walked with God, saw His back and lead His people out of Egypt, prophecies to the nations to turn from their wicked ways, for those who were taught by Christ were eyewitnesses to the things that were happening and for those called to be Apostles of Christ? You mean, I should trust those who came after them more than I should trust those who were given the Holy Spirit to specifically write down what God wanted to say.

Is that what you were trying to tell me? We're you also trying to tell me that I should give more credit to those men who "canonized the bible" because they had to labor over material that was already written? Even if those men who canonized scripture had to stifle through a lot of material...they had only 300 years of history to go through, they knew what was being taught and what was not. It's not like when they saw the "Book of Judas" they labored hard over whether or not it should be considered Scripture. There were false teachings and writing that Paul speaks of and then gave them a way to identify the writings that were from him.

 

[daydreamergurl15]

Ok, but do you understand that the books that we Christians call the New Testament canon were not bundled together in the first century and put into storage until Athanasius stumbled upon them and sent out a letter to all the churches to inform them of a new set of inspired Scripture to be added to the already-accepted canon of Old Testament scriptures? There were quite a few other versions of the Gospel which were circulating among the local churches of the near east; the early fathers of the Church had a lot of material to sift through. I know that until recently I took for granted that I can read the inspired words of the New Testament without considering the men who labored together to ensure that what I receive as Scripture really is Scripture. Let me close with a link to an excellent essay on the subject of the history of the assembly of the New Testament canon. It's written by a Jew who, in his own words was "surprised by Christ.". Which Came First: The Church or the New Testament?

Sent from my iPhone using CF

Take a look at the New Testament and you'll notice something about it's history, the letters that were begin written and preached were being circulated. Why do you think that there were over thousands of manuscripts? Because people wrote them down and it was being circulated. Paul warns the church in Galatia that if someone preached any other gospel then the ones that they taught, let them be accursed (Gal 1:8), we also know that they were false teachings going on, and this was all happening in the 1st century church. My thing is, the truth has been around and circulating. I don't know the story of how the bible got together, but I do know that when I read the New Testament, it tells you what was going on in the first century. The Spirit was poured out on these people and they had the gifts of the Holy Spirit as they were teaching, prophesying, speaking in tongues, interpreting, etc...all that was needed to continue the teachings of God.

Now, you might think it's weird that I'm speaking about the Scripture instead of the canonization of the Scripture, but that's why I speak of it. You cannot canonize what was not written. Those scriptures were already there. People were still being taught even in 314AD, God just allowed men to place them together into one book. But don't think that those men who labored over the manuscripts to canonized deserve a greater voice then those who wrote what they canonized (for the one who wrote it was the Holy Spirit, through inspired men).

I appreciate what those men did when they canonized the Scripture, but my faith is not molded by what those men believed about what is written in scripture, my faith is molded by the Scripture of which they canonized. And I'm not saying that what they believed were not scripture, I don't know what they believe, because I don't know who the men were who canonized the scripture, but I know that I have faith in God's word and that what God wanted me to know, He would have provided in His book. And I don't doubt that those men had the Holy Spirit working in them to place the Scripture in one book (and please realize, that they placed the Scripture in one book they didn't write Scripture, they just placed it in one book). But the Scripture, of which those men canonized, is silent about Christians that has passed away, and have the ability to hear us and pray for us.