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saints of this and that (moved from GT)

Rick Otto

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Originally Posted by Dorothea
There's no limitations of hearing, seeing, etc. in heaven. They are united with Christ, filled with the Spirit, and united in the Spirit with all His Body.
This is the most beautiful way I have seen it put. :crossrc:
...But with limitations of being heard, being seen, etc. here on earth, where we are & they aren't. I am united with my Christian family in Georgia, but we cannot hear or see each other.
It may not be as beautiful, but it is real.
 
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Tzaousios

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Yeah... I've read that. More than once.

Thing is, we both believe in Jesus Christ, yet we still disagree on matters. So posting stuff like that without even a personal commentary is rather futile unless you're trying to give off an air of "I'm spiritual so I understand Scripture flawlessly and if you don't agree with me you must not be spiritual."

Exactly. What is more, they never have an answer for the sticky situation that is "what happens when we both have the Holy Spirit and put our respective prooftexts up against each other?"
 
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daydreamergurl15

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Yeah... I've read that. More than once.

Thing is, we both believe in Jesus Christ, yet we still disagree on matters. So posting stuff like that without even a personal commentary is rather futile unless you're trying to give off an air of "I'm spiritual so I understand Scripture flawlessly and if you don't agree with me you must not be spiritual."
So, now posting scripture means that I'm trying to "give off an air of I'm spiritual so I understand Scripture flawlessly and if you don't agree with me you must not be spiritual?"

Interesting.
 
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daydreamergurl15

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Yes, but how do you know there weren't also Christians "who came after," who were also from Antioch, among those who canonized Scripture? That leaves you with the conundrum that they must be contaminated with "catholicism" compared to the apostles and first Christians.
I don't understand you and I don't understand how you come to some of your conclusions when reading my post...but yet, I still love you.
Hi. :wave:
 
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Saint Michael the Archangel,
defend us in battle;
be our protection against the wickedness and snares of the devil.
May God rebuke him, we humbly pray:
and do thou, O Prince of the heavenly host,
by the power of God,
thrust into hell Satan and all the evil spirits
who prowl about the world seeking the ruin of souls.
Amen
 
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Rick Otto

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So, now posting scripture means that I'm trying to "give off an air of I'm spiritual so I understand Scripture flawlessly and if you don't agree with me you must not be spiritual?"

Interesting.
I already picture you with a halo, so... (just lettin' ya know):cool:
 
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Rick Otto

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Saint Michael the Archangel,
defend us in battle;
be our protection against the wickedness and snares of the devil.
May God rebuke him, we humbly pray:
and do thou, O Prince of the heavenly host,
by the power of God,
thrust into hell Satan and all the evil spirits
who prowl about the world seeking the ruin of souls.
Amen
Wow, that's powerful cool stuff, brother! amen & hallelujah!
That's a Rerail post.
 
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Dorothea

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Sorry, I didn't catch the verses that you gave to me. What post message were they in, I'll go back and read them.
After some time away praying and also some time to do a jigsaw puzzle, I've rejuvinated myself and felt the need to return here. A glutton for punishment maybe? Lord, have mercy on my soul.

Anyway, I will give you the verses we believe that the CF's interpreted to mean that we are in communion with the saints on earth and in heaven and also, since I posted a couple pages back the first century Christians were doing so at the catacombs, I would ask, where did they get this idea? Where else? From the Apostles and/or their bishops who learned from the Apostles. It's doubtful they came up with that all on their own, especially in the first or second century when the teachings and the lives of the Apostles were so near to them, so to speak.

James 5:16 "Therefore, confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another so that you may be healed. The effective prayer of a righteous man can accomplish much."

Hebrews 12:22 12:22-24 "But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel."

Romans 8:38-39 "For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."

Ephesians 6:18 "Praying at all times in the Spirit, with all prayer and supplication. To that end keep alert with all perseverance, making supplication for all the saints..."

1 Timothy 2:1 "Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanks be made for all men."

In Luke the story of the rich man and Lazarus. Yes, the rich man in hades is asking Abraham to pray for his brothers.

Matthew 22:32 'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob' ? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living."

John 11:25 "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?"


And Fr. Peter Gilquist talks on the Intercession of the Saints, using the Scriptures.

Fr. Peter Gillquist - Intercession Of The Saints - Orthodox Conference on Missions and Evangelism 2009 - Ancient Faith Radio
 
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Dorothea

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Originally Posted by Dorothea
There's no limitations of hearing, seeing, etc. in heaven. They are united with Christ, filled with the Spirit, and united in the Spirit with all His Body.
...But with limitations of being heard, being seen, etc. here on earth, where we are & they aren't. I am united with my Christian family in Georgia, but we cannot hear or see each other.
It may not be as beautiful, but it is real.

Well, let me try and answer this as plainly and clearly as I can for you, Rick. We on earth can't hear others prayers in private, can't see others that aren't physically in front of us (unless you have a webcam or skype ;)) because these are our limitations on earth. Those in heaven do not have those limitations. They are with and in Christ, and we are connected through the Spirit. So, their hearing our prayers isn't a stretch. We hearing anything or seeing anything from heaven is not as likely because again, we are on earth in our earthly existence.
 
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ivebeenshown

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So, now posting scripture means that I'm trying to "give off an air of I'm spiritual so I understand Scripture flawlessly and if you don't agree with me you must not be spiritual?"

Interesting.
No, it's the context and manner in which you posted that particular passage of Scripture. You said you trusted the Apostles or whatever, I asked if you currently converse with them so they can verify you have correctly understood their words, and you post some Scripture about having spiritual understanding, which in one way implied that all who disagree with your interpretation lack spiritual understanding, and overall served no real purpose.

You can say you are led by the Spirit and that you have the right doctrine because 'the Spirit tells you so' but the only way to really communicate it between us is through logic and rational thinking and communication. In fact, Paul argued out of the Scriptures. He didn't just hand people a pamphlet or give them a speech and say "if I still disagree with you, you're just not spiritual."
 
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daydreamergurl15

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@Dorothea
I wanted to say something to you as not to have another misunderstanding. When I say that Christians are dead, I speak of the physical and to help clarify when someone read my post, they know which Christian I was speaking about. I do not mean to say that Christians who have passed on are dead spiritually just that they are dead physically.

Now, for the verses you gave me, I'm the type of person that has to read the scripture with the surrounding scriptures around it...so with each verse you gave me, I read it within the context:

James 5:13-18
13 Is anyone among you suffering? Let him pray. Is anyone cheerful? Let him sing psalms. 14 Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. 15 And the prayer of faith will save the sick, and the Lord will raise him up. And if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven. 16 Confess your trespasses to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much. 17 Elijah was a man with a nature like ours, and he prayed earnestly that it would not rain; and it did not rain on the land for three years and six months. 18 And he prayed again, and the heaven gave rain, and the earth produced its fruit.


Hebrews 12:18-24
18 For you have not come to the mountain that may be touched and that burned with fire, and to blackness and darkness and tempest, 19 and the sound of a trumpet and the voice of words, so that those who heard it begged that the word should not be spoken to them anymore. 20 (For they could not endure what was commanded: “And if so much as a beast touches the mountain, it shall be stoned or shot with an arrow.” 21 And so terrifying was the sight that Moses said, “I am exceedingly afraid and trembling.”)
22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.


Romans 8:31-39
31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things? 33 Who shall bring a charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. 34 Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us. 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 36 As it is written:


“ For Your sake we are killed all day long;
We are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.”

37 Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us. 38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, 39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.


Ephesians 6:10-20
10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord and in the power of His might. 11 Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. 12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places. 13 Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
14 Stand therefore, having girded your waist with truth, having put on the breastplate of righteousness, 15 and having shod your feet with the preparation of the gospel of peace; 16 above all, taking the shield of faith with which you will be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked one. 17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God; 18 praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, being watchful to this end with all perseverance and supplication for all the saints— 19 and for me, that utterance may be given to me, that I may open my mouth boldly to make known the mystery of the gospel, 20 for which I am an ambassador in chains; that in it I may speak boldly, as I ought to speak.


1 Timothy 2:1-7
1 Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, 2 for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time, 7 for which I was appointed a preacher and an apostle—I am speaking the truth in Christand not lying—a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.



Luke 16:24-31
24 “Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’ 25 But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. 26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.’
27 “Then he said, ‘I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father’s house, 28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.’ 29 Abraham said to him, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’ 30 And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 31 But he said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.’”


Matthew 22:23-33
23 The same day the Sadducees, who say there is no resurrection, came to Him and asked Him, 24 saying: “Teacher, Moses said that if a man dies, having no children, his brother shall marry his wife and raise up offspring for his brother. 25 Now there were with us seven brothers. The first died after he had married, and having no offspring, left his wife to his brother. 26 Likewise the second also, and the third, even to the seventh. 27 Last of all the woman died also. 28 Therefore, in the resurrection, whose wife of the seven will she be? For they all had her.”
29 Jesus answered and said to them, “You are mistaken, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God. 30 For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels of God in heaven. 31 But concerning the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God, saying, 32 ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.” 33 And when the multitudes heard this, they were astonished at His teaching.


17 So when Jesus came, He found that he had already been in the tomb four days. 18 Now Bethany was near Jerusalem, about two miles away. 19 And many of the Jews had joined the women around Martha and Mary, to comfort them concerning their brother.
20 Now Martha, as soon as she heard that Jesus was coming, went and met Him, but Mary was sitting in the house. 21 Now Martha said to Jesus, “Lord, if You had been here, my brother would not have died. 22 But even now I know that whatever You ask of God, God will give You.”
23 Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.”
24 Martha said to Him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”
25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. 26 And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”
27 She said to Him, “Yes, Lord, I believe that You are the Christ, the Son of God, who is to come into the world.”
My question to you is this: What is the connection in these verses that tells us that Christians who have pasted on, hears and intercede for us, with the verses you have given? I don't see the connections, can you explain them to me in the verses that you gave?
 
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LOCO

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Revelations 5:8-14
8 Now when He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. 9 And they sang a new song, saying:

Remind me again, in these verses, where does it tell us that the saints were in heaven and in the presence of God and that they interceded for us?
Question: In the passage of scripture in Revelations 5:8, who have the harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints?


We have different levels of Christians? Little s and big S?





Read Revelation 5vs8

Revelation 5:8 "And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints."


This verse says elders i.e. humans in heaven. Who are these elders? Who are they 'elders of'? They are elders of Christians already in Heaven. They are Saints e.g. Moses, Abraham, Jude, Mark, Luke, Peter, Thomas etc.


Yes we do have levels of Christians. Just like we have levels of athletes, some athletes are professional athletes, they do it for a living, they train right, they eat right, they do everything to keep their bodies in optimal shape. Other athletes are in training, just starting out. Others are weekend sportsmen.

Christians need to go about their faith like athletes do. They need to build it up. Athletes build up their bodies through exercising it, Christians build up their faith by exercising their faith through prayer, fasting, reading Scripture or receiving Sacraments etc.

Some Christians are pros, they speak it, they behave it, they breath it, they practice it zealously. Because their faith was so strong they performed miracles, they raised the dead, instantly cured the sick and/or were Martyred for refusing to give up their faith. They led outstanding holy lives. They are devout. These Christians in the Catholic sense of the word are Saints. Capital S.

Some Christians have hauled that cross halfway to Golgotha. They are well into the marathon.

Some Christians have just strapped the cross on, just starting the journey.

Some Christians are weekend christians, christian by name only, their cross is lying in the garage, dragged out on Sundays.

I would not classify myself in the same league as St Jude, St Matthew, St Paul, St Peter, St Mark, St Augustine, St Mary Magdalene, St Joseph, St Francis of Assisi, St Patrick etc.

These guys are Saints, I am a saint. They are pros, I am an amateur.

Heaven is not a democracy. It is a Kingdom. We have an hierarchy, God, Jesus, the Holy Spirit, Archangels, Angels, Jesus earthly parents, Mary and Joseph, the Apostles, etc.



:prayer: Blessings
 
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ivebeenshown

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All I did was post a scripture that spoke about the Holy Spirit interpreting the mysterious things of God to us.
Yeah, well as I said, there was no personal commentary, so it was pretty vague and could have been taken in many different ways.

The problem is that I firmly believe the Holy Spirit guides the Catholic Church's office of teaching on matters of faith and morals, and the Church's teachings contradict your beliefs. Yet you say the Holy Spirit guides you in your doctrines... hm.
 
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Rick Otto

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@Dorothea
I wanted to say something to you as not to have another misunderstanding. When I say that Christians are dead, I speak of the physical and to help clarify when someone read my post, they know which Christian I was speaking about. I do not mean to say that Christians who have passed on are dead spiritually just that they are dead physically.

Now, for the verses you gave me, I'm the type of person that has to read the scripture with the surrounding scriptures around it...so with each verse you gave me, I read it within the context:
James 5:13-18
13 Is anyone among you suffering? Let him pray. Is anyone cheerful? Let him sing psalms. 14 Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. 15 And the prayer of faith will save the sick, and the Lord will raise him up. And if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven. 16 Confess your trespasses to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much. 17 Elijah was a man with a nature like ours, and he prayed earnestly that it would not rain; and it did not rain on the land for three years and six months. 18 And he prayed again, and the heaven gave rain, and the earth produced its fruit.


Hebrews 12:18-24
18 For you have not come to the mountain that may be touched and that burned with fire, and to blackness and darkness and tempest, 19 and the sound of a trumpet and the voice of words, so that those who heard it begged that the word should not be spoken to them anymore. 20 (For they could not endure what was commanded: “And if so much as a beast touches the mountain, it shall be stoned or shot with an arrow.” 21 And so terrifying was the sight that Moses said, “I am exceedingly afraid and trembling.”)
22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.


Romans 8:31-39
31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things? 33 Who shall bring a charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. 34 Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us. 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 36 As it is written:


“ For Your sake we are killed all day long;
We are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.”

37 Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us. 38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, 39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.


Ephesians 6:10-20
10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord and in the power of His might. 11 Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. 12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places. 13 Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
14 Stand therefore, having girded your waist with truth, having put on the breastplate of righteousness, 15 and having shod your feet with the preparation of the gospel of peace; 16 above all, taking the shield of faith with which you will be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked one. 17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God; 18 praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, being watchful to this end with all perseverance and supplication for all the saints— 19 and for me, that utterance may be given to me, that I may open my mouth boldly to make known the mystery of the gospel, 20 for which I am an ambassador in chains; that in it I may speak boldly, as I ought to speak.


1 Timothy 2:1-7
1 Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, 2 for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time, 7 for which I was appointed a preacher and an apostle—I am speaking the truth in Christand not lying—a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.



Luke 16:24-31
24 “Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’ 25 But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. 26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.’
27 “Then he said, ‘I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father’s house, 28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.’ 29 Abraham said to him, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’ 30 And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 31 But he said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.’”


Matthew 22:23-33
23 The same day the Sadducees, who say there is no resurrection, came to Him and asked Him, 24 saying: “Teacher, Moses said that if a man dies, having no children, his brother shall marry his wife and raise up offspring for his brother. 25 Now there were with us seven brothers. The first died after he had married, and having no offspring, left his wife to his brother. 26 Likewise the second also, and the third, even to the seventh. 27 Last of all the woman died also. 28 Therefore, in the resurrection, whose wife of the seven will she be? For they all had her.”
29 Jesus answered and said to them, “You are mistaken, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God. 30 For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels of God in heaven. 31 But concerning the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God, saying, 32 ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.” 33 And when the multitudes heard this, they were astonished at His teaching.


17 So when Jesus came, He found that he had already been in the tomb four days. 18 Now Bethany was near Jerusalem, about two miles away. 19 And many of the Jews had joined the women around Martha and Mary, to comfort them concerning their brother.
20 Now Martha, as soon as she heard that Jesus was coming, went and met Him, but Mary was sitting in the house. 21 Now Martha said to Jesus, “Lord, if You had been here, my brother would not have died. 22 But even now I know that whatever You ask of God, God will give You.”
23 Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.”
24 Martha said to Him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”
25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. 26 And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”
27 She said to Him, “Yes, Lord, I believe that You are the Christ, the Son of God, who is to come into the world.”
My question to you is this: What is the connection in these verses that tells us that Christians who have pasted on, hears and intercede for us, with the verses you have given? I don't see the connections, can you explain them to me in the verses that you gave?
Yeah, I didn't see an apostle praying to a deceased saint, either.
I respectfully think the connection is with suggestive assumptions that lead to self-soothing conclusions, if I may say so.
 
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daydreamergurl15

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Read Revelation 5vs8

Revelation 5:8 "And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints."


This verse says elders i.e. humans in heaven. Who are these elders? Who are they 'elders of'? They are elders of Christians already in Heaven. They are Saints e.g. Moses, Abraham, Jude, Mark, Luke, Peter, Thomas etc.
Who told you that the elders are the Saints (as you put it)? Who told you that the elders are humans (they could very well be, I'm just curious where you got the understanding from)?
Revelation 7:9-17
9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 10 and crying out with a loud voice, saying, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!” 11 All the angels stood around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying:


“ Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom,
Thanksgiving and honor and power and might,
Be to our God forever and ever.
Amen.”

13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?”
14 And I said to him, “Sir, you know.”
So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple. And He who sits on the throne will dwell among them. 16 They shall neither hunger anymore nor thirst anymore; the sun shall not strike them, nor any heat; 17 for the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will shepherd them and lead them to living fountains of waters. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.”​

Oh, and just to let you know that this is future tense read Chapters 6 and 7, these are the seals that John got to see a vision of.
Yes we do have levels of Christians. Just like we have levels of athletes, some athletes are professional athletes, they do it for a living, they train right, they eat right, they do everything to keep their bodies in optimal shape. Other athletes are in training, just starting out. Others are weekend sportsmen.

Christians need to go about their faith like athletes do. They need to build it up. Athletes build up their bodies through exercising it, Christians build up their faith by exercising their faith through prayer, fasting, reading Scripture or receiving Sacraments etc.

Some Christians are pros, they speak it, they behave it, they breath it, they practice it zealously. Because their faith was so strong they performed miracles, they raised the dead, instantly cured the sick and/or were Martyred for refusing to give up their faith. They led outstanding holy lives. They are devout. These Christians in the Catholic sense of the word are Saints. Capital S.

Some Christians have hauled that cross halfway to Golgotha. They are well into the marathon.

Some Christians have just strapped the cross on, just starting the journey.

Some Christians are weekend christians, christian by name only, their cross is lying in the garage, dragged out on Sundays.

I would not classify myself in the same league as St Jude, St Matthew, St Paul, St Peter, St Mark, St Augustine, St Mary, St Joseph, St Francis of Assisi, St Patrick etc.

These guys are Saints, I am a saint. They are pros, I am an amateur.

Heaven is not a democracy. It is a Kingdom. We have an hierarchy, God, Jesus, the Holy Spirit, Archangels, Angels, Jesus earthly parents, Mary and Joseph, the Apostles, etc.



:prayer: Blessings
Who made these distinctions?
 
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daydreamergurl15

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Yeah, well as I said, there was no personal commentary, so it was pretty vague and could have been taken in many different ways.

The problem is that I firmly believe the Holy Spirit guides the Catholic Church's office of teaching on matters of faith and morals, and the Church's teachings contradict your beliefs. Yet you say the Holy Spirit guides you in your doctrines... hm.
You guys have not shown that the Scriptures teaches ones to pray/ask/intercede/(whatever the proper name for it) to Christians who are dead physically. I'm only going by what I see in scripture.
 
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Rick Otto

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Well, let me try and answer this as plainly and clearly as I can for you, Rick. We on earth can't hear others prayers in private, can't see others that aren't physically in front of us (unless you have a webcam or skype ;)) because these are our limitations on earth. Those in heaven do not have those limitations. They are with and in Christ, and we are connected through the Spirit. So, their hearing our prayers isn't a stretch. We hearing anything or seeing anything from heaven is not as likely because again, we are on earth in our earthly existence.
Thank you, I do appreciate the effort.
Their hearing our prayers, even if it isn't a stretch, still remains an exercise of the imagination, and prayer to deceased saints not being iterated by an apostle renders it untraditional in the apostolic sense regardless if what we imagine is in fact true, wouldn't you agree?
 
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LOCO

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Who told you that the elders are the Saints (as you put it)? Who told you that the elders are humans?





eldersplural of eld·er (Noun)

1. A person of greater age than someone specified.
2. A person of advanced age.


What else could the term elders mean? Of course they are human. They are not angels or other heavenly creatures.

 
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