Saints; can we pray to them? Can they hear us?

Can Saints hear our prayers and actually answer them?

  • No. Don't even pray to them, it is wrong.

  • Maybe, just maybe but I don't see it stated anywhere in the bible.

  • I have done it in the past and I felt something but now I'm not so sure.

  • Yes.


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bbbbbbb

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To interceded is actually to act on behalf of another; one can do this as prayer or also as an action. The request of the Macedonian man is a request for action on the part of Paul.

To return to my central point - the spiritual hearing is not reliant on the physical (ephemeral) ability to hear. Spiritual hearing is reliant on God - and I do not doubt God's power.

I certainly hope that none of us here doubt God's power. I certainly agree that God has given visions to His prophets and apostles and that these have taken various forms. The vision of Ezekiel of the Temple is exceptionally lengthy and detailed. Certainly the vision of the Apocalypse of St. John is amazing.

The question at hand is really not that God has the power to do extraordinary things but whether it is His will to do certain things and, if so, how His will has been manifested.

In particular, is it God's will to transform saints into Saints which possess divine attributes such as omniscience and omnipresence? That is to say, does God elevate some humans (but not all) after physical death to a position where they can be every place at the same time and hearing and knowing every prayer that is offered to them at the same time? In the illustrations of the various visions we do not have individuals who are experiencing more than one vision at one time.
 
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bbbbbbb

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Re: the post concerning what the Saints can do that God cannot -- on the first hand, the question makes no sense to me as it requires a sort of separation. But, per my comment, God indeed does ask of humans to engage in doing "His work" - on synergia. The post skips the history of God working in and with people.

So, is your comment limited to the Twelve Apostles or is it more generic as inclusive of all believers who are sent forth (which, of course, is the meaning of apostolos)?
 
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Thekla

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I certainly hope that none of us here doubt God's power. I certainly agree that God has given visions to His prophets and apostles and that these have taken various forms. The vision of Ezekiel of the Temple is exceptionally lengthy and detailed. Certainly the vision of the Apocalypse of St. John is amazing.

The question at hand is really not that God has the power to do extraordinary things but whether it is His will to do certain things and, if so, how His will has been manifested.

In particular, is it God's will to transform saints into Saints which possess divine attributes such as omniscience and omnipresence? That is to say, does God elevate some humans (but not all) after physical death to a position where they can be every place at the same time and hearing and knowing every prayer that is offered to them at the same time? In the illustrations of the various visions we do not have individuals who are experiencing more than one vision at one time.

As has been explained previously, the EO does not believe that the Saints are "omniscient and omnipresent", nor even one of these attributes.

Your objection is prudent, but is not an objection to EO understanding/belief on the matter.

As before, what is "heard" by any Christian is heard in the Holy Spirit, in God. Spiritual "hearing" is dependent on God.
 
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Thekla

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So, is your comment limited to the Twelve Apostles or is it more generic as inclusive of all believers who are sent forth (which, of course, is the meaning of apostolos)?

Not all Christians are "sent forth" in the manner of the Apostles, but all are to work with God (synergia).

So, my comment applies to all Christians, yes.
 
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bbbbbbb

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As has been explained previously, the EO does not believe that the Saints are "omniscient and omnipresent", nor even one of these attributes.

Your objection is prudent, but is not an objection to EO understanding/belief on the matter.

As before, what is "heard" by any Christian is heard in the Holy Spirit, in God. Spiritual "hearing" is dependent on God.

Then, I do not have any particular objection to the EO understanding. To follow up, if a Saint is not omnipresent, how does a Saint hear, much less respond to, multiple prayers offered simultaneously from all points of the globe?
 
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Thekla

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Then, I do not have any particular objection to the EO understanding. To follow up, if a Saint is not omnipresent, how does a Saint hear, much less respond to, multiple prayers offered simultaneously from all points of the globe?

Like any other Christian spiritually "hears" - in the Holy Spirit.

The particulars are beyond my understanding, but consider the following: in the flesh, we experience and understand in part through the creations of time and space.

God is beyond time and above time. I cannot assume those with Him experience in precisely the same way we do, as the body is how time and space are experienced.
 
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IF the undead in purgatory or heaven CAN audiably hear the petitions of all 2.2 billion Christians on earth (a point YET to be substantiated), why should we use our time requesting THEM to pray rather than OUR praying or requesting the living among us to pray? That, too, has never been addressed....


Some notes:


1. While Scripture repeatedly and boldly invites and encourages US to pray TO God, there is NOTHING that remotely indicates (much less invites and encourages) us to pray to the undead in purgatory or heaven OR indicates that such can "hear" anything OR that such relate our petitions to God. Nothing.


2. Scripture repeatedly and boldly invites and encourages us to seek the prayers of the living among us on earth, as well as repeatedly and boldly instructing the living among us on earth to pray to God for each other. IMO, part of the reason for this may well be because such can extend to us Christian care, counsel, support and accountability - all things the undead in purgatory or heaven cannot do.


3. Each of us on earth has a finite amount of time. Every moment spent "praying" to the undead in purgatory or heaven is ergo a moment we are NOT do as Scripture instructs, encourages and invites: praying to GOD and seeking the prayer and counsel can care of our living brothers and sisters here on earth.








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Rose_bud

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IF the undead in purgatory or heaven CAN audiably hear the petitions of all 2.2 billion Christians on earth (a point YET to be substantiated), why should we use our time requesting THEM to pray rather than OUR praying or requesting the living among us to pray? That, too, has never been addressed....


Some notes:


1. While Scripture repeatedly and boldly invites and encourages US to pray TO God, there is NOTHING that remotely indicates (much less invites and encourages) us to pray to the undead in purgatory or heaven OR indicates that such can "hear" anything OR that such relate our petitions to God. Nothing.


2. Scripture repeatedly and boldly invites and encourages us to seek the prayers of the living among us on earth, as well as repeatedly and boldly instructing the living among us on earth to pray to God for each other. IMO, part of the reason for this may well be because such can extend to us Christian care, counsel, support and accountability - all things the undead in purgatory or heaven cannot do.


3. Each of us on earth has a finite amount of time. Every moment spent "praying" to the undead in purgatory or heaven is ergo a moment we are NOT do as Scripture instructs, encourages and invites: praying to GOD and seeking the prayer and counsel can care of our living brothers and sisters here on earth.

.
:thumbsup:Amen
 
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Thekla

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#849
IF the undead in purgatory or heaven CAN audiably hear the petitions of all 2.2 billion Christians on earth (a point YET to be substantiated), why should we use our time requesting THEM to pray rather than OUR praying or requesting the living among us to pray? That, too, has never been addressed....


Some notes:


1. While Scripture repeatedly and boldly invites and encourages US to pray TO God, there is NOTHING that remotely indicates (much less invites and encourages) us to pray to the undead in purgatory or heaven OR indicates that such can "hear" anything OR that such relate our petitions to God. Nothing.


2. Scripture repeatedly and boldly invites and encourages us to seek the prayers of the living among us on earth, as well as repeatedly and boldly instructing the living among us on earth to pray to God for each other. IMO, part of the reason for this may well be because such can extend to us Christian care, counsel, support and accountability - all things the undead in purgatory or heaven cannot do.


3. Each of us on earth has a finite amount of time. Every moment spent "praying" to the undead in purgatory or heaven is ergo a moment we are NOT do as Scripture instructs, encourages and invites: praying to GOD and seeking the prayer and counsel can care of our living brothers and sisters here on earth.
#855
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IF the undead in purgatory or heaven CAN audiably hear the petitions of all 2.2 billion Christians on earth (a point YET to be substantiated), why should we use our time requesting THEM to pray rather than OUR praying or requesting the living among us to pray? That, too, has never been addressed....


Some notes:


1. While Scripture repeatedly and boldly invites and encourages US to pray TO God, there is NOTHING that remotely indicates (much less invites and encourages) us to pray to the undead in purgatory or heaven OR indicates that such can "hear" anything OR that such relate our petitions to God. Nothing.


2. Scripture repeatedly and boldly invites and encourages us to seek the prayers of the living among us on earth, as well as repeatedly and boldly instructing the living among us on earth to pray to God for each other. IMO, part of the reason for this may well be because such can extend to us Christian care, counsel, support and accountability - all things the undead in purgatory or heaven cannot do.


3. Each of us on earth has a finite amount of time. Every moment spent "praying" to the undead in purgatory or heaven is ergo a moment we are NOT do as Scripture instructs, encourages and invites: praying to GOD and seeking the prayer and counsel can care of our living brothers and sisters here on earth.

Hmm ... do you have anything else to add ?
(IIRC, I have responded to these questions or a version of them.)
 
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Fotina

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IF the undead in purgatory or heaven CAN audiably hear the petitions of all 2.2 billion Christians on earth (a point YET to be substantiated), why should we use our time requesting THEM to pray rather than OUR praying or requesting the living among us to pray? That, too, has never been addressed....


Some notes:


1. While Scripture repeatedly and boldly invites and encourages US to pray TO God, there is NOTHING that remotely indicates (much less invites and encourages) us to pray to the undead in purgatory or heaven OR indicates that such can "hear" anything OR that such relate our petitions to God. Nothing.


2. Scripture repeatedly and boldly invites and encourages us to seek the prayers of the living among us on earth, as well as repeatedly and boldly instructing the living among us on earth to pray to God for each other. IMO, part of the reason for this may well be because such can extend to us Christian care, counsel, support and accountability - all things the undead in purgatory or heaven cannot do.


3. Each of us on earth has a finite amount of time. Every moment spent "praying" to the undead in purgatory or heaven is ergo a moment we are NOT do as Scripture instructs, encourages and invites: praying to GOD and seeking the prayer and counsel can care of our living brothers and sisters here on earth.








.

Christ is not divided and neither is His Body, whether departed this earthly life or not. Why do you divide the Body of Christ? It is the same Christ that hears the intercessions of the Saints and grants their petitions. You could "hear" the prayers of all Christians if your "hearing" was as divinized in Christ as the Saints and your Love as great.

Do you believe and confess the ancient Nicene Creed and the part of "the communion of the saints"? Christianity is not a "you and Jesus", individualistic faith. It's Christ and His Body, the Church.
 
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Thekla

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IF the undead in purgatory or heaven CAN audiably hear the petitions of all 2.2 billion Christians on earth (a point YET to be substantiated), why should we use our time requesting THEM to pray rather than OUR praying or requesting the living among us to pray? That, too, has never been addressed....
I have, but will try again ...
The body of Christ is not divided, nor do I believe that those in Christ cease to be in Christ when leaving their "tent" (as Peter calls it). If the Scriptures are true, and to die in Christ is to be with Christ, and if to be in the flesh and a Christian is to have Christ in one, then one cannot state that those who are Christians are absent from Christ.


Some notes:


1. While Scripture repeatedly and boldly invites and encourages US to pray TO God, there is NOTHING that remotely indicates (much less invites and encourages) us to pray to the undead in purgatory or heaven OR indicates that such can "hear" anything OR that such relate our petitions to God. Nothing.
Quite the contrary; the prayers of the saints are described in Revelation 8. "Saint" is a term used to describe Christians. Does the term refer to only some Christians ? I am of the opinion that the term refers to all in Christ, not just those we see.
The Scriptures also describe "spiritual hearing", which is not the same as physical hearing. Just as Paul could know "in the Spirit" what he did not witness by proximity (Corinthians), physical proximity is not the source of spiritual hearing. Further, some of those "in heaven" do know of events on earth (see Revelation), though they are absent from the flesh.

2. Scripture repeatedly and boldly invites and encourages us to seek the prayers of the living among us on earth, as well as repeatedly and boldly instructing the living among us on earth to pray to God for each other. IMO, part of the reason for this may well be because such can extend to us Christian care, counsel, support and accountability - all things the undead in purgatory or heaven cannot do.
I'm not certain what Scripture you use to claim that only Christians in the flesh are Christians. Do we cease to be in Christ upon death ?



3. Each of us on earth has a finite amount of time. Every moment spent "praying" to the undead in purgatory or heaven is ergo a moment we are NOT do as Scripture instructs, encourages and invites: praying to GOD and seeking the prayer and counsel can care of our living brothers and sisters here on earth.
So in this sense, do you mean that every moment in the flesh on earth must be in physical proximity to other Christians in the flesh ?
Or is it possible that Christians are sometimes not in close proximity with other Christians in the flesh ?

To ask someone to pray in intercession is a moment, yes. But Christians never are the only Christian praying; at every moment there are numberless prayers and praise (a form of prayer) offered to God.

And if those in Christ are present from Christ, how is Christ absent from those in Him :confused:

Do you mean that Heaven will be only Christ and one Christian, or is Heaven a Kingdom ?
 
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Fotina

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"So Great A Cloud of Witnesses
By fatherstephen

…who through faith subdued kingdoms, worked righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, became valiant in battle, turned to flight the armies of the aliens. Women received their dead raised to life again. And others were tortured, not accepting deliverance, that they might obtain a better resurrection. Still others had trial of mockings and scourgings, yes, and of chains and imprisonment. They were stoned, they were sawn in two, were tempted, were slain with the sword. They wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins, being destitute, afflicted, tormented– of whom the world was not worthy. They wandered in deserts and mountains, in dens and caves of the earth. And all these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise, God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us. Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. (Heb 11:33-12:2)

+++

Among my most beloved chapters of Scripture is the "roll-call of faith" found in Hebrews 11. There, St. Paul recalls the bold acts of faith and martyrdom endured by the saints of God. Beginning with the account of Righteous Abel who was slain by his brother Cain, and continuing through the Patriarchs and Prophets, the Apostle describes these lives of faith "of whom the world was not worthy." Its summary and conclusion are found in the passage quoted above.

There are at least three ways to read the passage: the first is to take it simply as a literary device in which we are being exhorted to remember these great historic figures of faith. Of course such a reading does not make sense of their "imperfection." In what sense are literary examples imperfect or incomplete?

A second reading would be that of the typical "two-storey" universe. In this reading the saints have died and taken their place with Christ far away in heaven. From this place, far-removed, they watch us and cheer us on. This second reading reminds me of the popular 90′s song "From a Distance" (it won a Grammy for the best song of year in 1991). It's pop theology told us:

…From a distance you look like my friend,
even though we are at war.
From a distance I just cannot comprehend
what all this fighting is for.

From a distance there is harmony,
and it echoes through the land.
And it's the hope of hopes, it's the love of loves,
it's the heart of every man.

It's the hope of hopes, it's the love of loves.
This is the song of every man.
And God is watching us, God is watching us,
God is watching us from a distance.
Oh, God is watching us, God is watching.
God is watching us from a distance.

My first reaction to this song was to think: "from a distance Mars looks inhabited." Primarily it seemed clear to me that God does not see us "from a distance." God is "everywhere present and filling all things" as described in the hymnography of the Orthodox Church. We may have images of thrones and golden streets, but if such images mean that God dwells at a distance then they are deeply misleading.

This third interpretation not only understands that the great cloud of witnesses who surround us are not at all far away. The same point is emphasized with the assertion that "they shall not be made perfect apart from us." Their perfection or "completion" is intimately joined to our own perfection. This is the classic doctrine of the communion of saints. Their lives, even their perfection and completion in Christ, is not something that can be considered on an individual basis. Our completion in Christ is, finally, the completion of our life in the Church, His body.

There is a commonplace expression in Western theology of the Church Triumphant and the Church Militant – making a two-storey distinction between our lives here and the saints' lives elsewhere. However, the teaching of the Church as found in her Creeds, clearly states that the Church is "One." "Christ is not divided," St. Paul taught. Thus the "cloud of witnesses" that surround us, not only cheer for us, but participate in our struggle. They are not made perfect or complete apart from us, but we are not made perfect apart from them. The perfection we have in Christ is one perfection – Christ Himself, the "author and finisher" of our faith.

Death is generally received as a deep wound. The loss we encounter is not without its accompanying grief. But our death is also the death of Christ, because His life becomes our life. It is not the life or perfection of those we love that establishes the foundation of our faith.

For none of us lives to himself, and no man dies to himself. For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's (Romans 14:7-8).

The foundation of our life – and the foundation of the lives of the one family of faith is the same foundation: the life and perfection of Christ – both author and finisher of our faith.

I rejoice that in Christ, nothing is lost. My grief itself, like death, will be trampled down by the death of Christ, and in Him I will share in the One life of His saints. Glory to God!"

So Great A Cloud of Witnesses « Glory to God for All Things
 
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