Saints; can we pray to them? Can they hear us?

[CaliforniaJosiah]

.


IF the undead in purgatory or heaven CAN audiably hear the petitions of all 2.2 billion Christians on earth (a point YET to be substantiated), why should we use our time requesting THEM to pray rather than OUR praying or requesting the living among us to pray? That, too, has never been addressed....


Some notes:


1. While Scripture repeatedly and boldly invites and encourages US to pray TO God, there is NOTHING that remotely indicates (much less invites and encourages) us to pray to the undead in purgatory or heaven OR indicates that such can "hear" anything OR that such relate our petitions to God. Nothing.


2. Scripture repeatedly and boldly invites and encourages us to seek the prayers of the living among us on earth, as well as repeatedly and boldly instructing the living among us on earth to pray to God for each other. IMO, part of the reason for this may well be because such can extend to us Christian care, counsel, support and accountability - all things the undead in purgatory or heaven cannot do.


3. Each of us on earth has a finite amount of time. Every moment spent "praying" to the undead in purgatory or heaven is ergo a moment we are NOT do as Scripture instructs, encourages and invites: praying to GOD and seeking the prayer and counsel can care of our living brothers and sisters here on earth.








.

Why do you divide the Body of Christ?

How does you asking a question a reply to anything you quoted?

You could "hear" the prayers of all Christians if your "hearing" was as divinized in Christ

Documentation, please.








.

 

[Fotina]

Let's see you divide the "undead in purgatory or heaven" from "living brothers and sisters here on earth". If they are in Christ, they all belong to the One Body of Christ, the Church.

Here's some reading for you on theosis.

The idea of Theosis will be unfamiliar to the Western mind, although it is not a new concept to Christianity. When Christ said, “Repent, for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand,” [1] this is a call to a life of Theosis.
Theosis is personal communion with God “face to face.” [2] To the Western mind, this idea may seem incomprehensible, even sacrilegious, but it derives unquestionably from Christ’s teachings. Jesus Christ was the fulfillment of the messianic dream of the Jewish race; [3] His mission to connect us with the Kingdom of God [4]—a Kingdom not of this world. [5] When Jesus said, “You are gods,” [6] “be perfect, just as your Father in Heaven is perfect,” [7] or “the righteous will shine like the sun in the Kingdom of their Father,” [8] this is to be taken literally. For those who are interested, further Biblical evidence for this can be found in Leviticus 11:44-45; 20:7-8; Deuteronomy 18:13; Psalms 82:1,6; Romans 6:22; 1 Corinthians 3:16-17; 2 Peter 1:2-4.
Theosis: The True Purpose of Human Life

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

Let's see you divide the "undead in purgatory or heaven" from "living brothers and sisters here on earth". If they are in Christ, they all belong to the One Body of Christ, the Church.

Yes. But those between birth and death, here on earth, still have ears and it's likely they can audiably hear our requests (if not, perhaps we can write it to them and they have eyes to read it.) Nothing yet has been provided that indicates that those in heaven still have their ears - much less a highly evolved auditory sense so they now they actually can detect the sound waves of all on earth issuing prayers (even silent prayers), nor has anything been presented that indicates that Jesus, the Apostles, or anyone stating anything anywhere in Scripture instructs us to request the prayers of the undead now in purgatory or heaven, or how such can counsel or comfort us - why we are better to ask the undead to pray for us (as NEVER instructed to do), hoping that maybe they have the auditory ability to hear our petition, rather than do as we are SO often instructed and invited and encouraged to do: Pray TO God and to ask the living among us to pray for us (knowing they CAN hear our request, and knowing they CAN minister to us).





.

 

[Thekla]

" ... and they that seek the Lord shall praise Him; their hearts shall live forever and ever."

It's the "ears of the heart" that hear -
the ears that hear God, the spiritual ears

The same of which is said, "faith comes by hearing ..."
(here referring to the heard or spoken word of God).

Even those on the earth gain nothing by the physical hearing, but by the spiritual hearing energized (Paul's term) in them.

Those with Christ, whose "hearts live forever and ever" hear by the Holy Spirit, who binds the body of Christ (wherever it may be).

 

[cafefan374]

I won't say "satanic" necessarily, but I do believe that ppl go about it wrong. They should ask the saints to say a prayer for them (if they must have this "security") not pray directly to them. This, however, should only be done after they have prayed to the father themselves. While saints may or may not be able to pray for you, they don't take the place of Christ. Biblically speaking, you don't need to go to saints to pray to the father, through Jesus, your access has been granted

 

[Thekla]

I won't say "satanic" necessarily, but I do believe that ppl go about it wrong. They should ask the saints to say a prayer for them (if they must have this "security") not pray directly to them. This, however, should only be done after they have prayed to the father themselves. While saints may or may not be able to pray for you, they don't take the place of Christ. Biblically speaking, you don't need to go to saints to pray to the father, through Jesus, your access has been granted

Indeed, every request to the Saints to pray for us is typically preceded by praying to God (in the EO this is comprised by several prayers including the Lord's Prayer), "locating" us with Him and thus with all who are in/with Him.

Nor can Saints "take the place of" Christ, but are united to Christ.

 

[zeke37]

Yes. But those between birth and death, here on earth, still have ears and it's likely they can audiably hear our requests (if not, perhaps we can write it to them and they have eyes to read it.) Nothing yet has been provided that indicates that those in heaven still have their ears - much less a highly evolved auditory sense so they now they actually can detect the sound waves of all on earth issuing prayers (even silent prayers), nor has anything been presented that indicates that Jesus, the Apostles, or anyone stating anything anywhere in Scripture instructs us to request the prayers of the undead now in purgatory or heaven, or how such can counsel or comfort us - why we are better to ask the undead to pray for us (as NEVER instructed to do), hoping that maybe they have the auditory ability to hear our petition, rather than do as we are SO often instructed and invited and encouraged to do: Pray TO God and to ask the living among us to pray for us (knowing they CAN hear our request, and knowing they CAN minister to us).

 

[Thekla]

So flesh, which will pass away, determines our spiritual hearing ?

Then how do the angels hear ?

 

[bbbbbbb]

So flesh, which will pass away, determines our spiritual hearing ?

Then how do the angels hear ?

Who and what do angels hear?

 

[Thekla]

Who and what do angels hear?

They hear God and they hear humans (both demonstrated in Scripture, btw - how else could, for example, Zachariah and Mary converse with an angel).

 

[narnia59]

They hear God and they hear humans (both demonstrated in Scripture, btw - how else could, for example, Zachariah and Mary converse with an angel).

Scripture also says they rejoice over the conversion of every sinner. Imagine that -- being able to be aware of the whole world and know when a sinner repents -- they must be omniscient! Not.

I guess I am more curious -- it seems that with such a focus on physical ears as being necessary for communication -- does that mean those in heaven now have no way to 'hear' each other? Basically deaf mutes until the resurrection of the body?

 

[Thekla]

Scripture also says they rejoice over the conversion of every sinner. Imagine that -- being able to be aware of the whole world and know when a sinner repents -- they must be omniscient! Not.

I guess I am more curious -- it seems that with such a focus on physical ears as being necessary for communication -- does that mean those in heaven now have no way to 'hear' each other? Basically deaf mutes until the resurrection of the body?

Aren't we not to prioritize the flesh ?

Yet persistently, many in this thread claim that the hearing is only by the flesh.

 

[Dorothea]

They hear God and they hear humans (both demonstrated in Scripture, btw - how else could, for example, Zachariah and Mary converse with an angel).

or Tobit.

 

[bbbbbbb]

They hear God and they hear humans (both demonstrated in Scripture, btw - how else could, for example, Zachariah and Mary converse with an angel).

Thanks. Do they also hear all prayers addressed to them simultaneously?

 

[Thekla]

Thanks. Do they also hear all prayers addressed to them simultaneously?

If God wills them to, why not ?

I would think that the experience of the "time" of eternity is not quite the same as the experience of the time of earth; do you ?

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

If God wills them to, why not ?

If God wills me to audibly hear all the prayers of all people (including silent ones) then I do; why not? Can't God do it? Is your apologetic one you yourself accept?




.

 

[Thekla]

If God wills me to audibly hear all the prayers of all people (including silent ones) then I do; why not? Can't God do it? Is your apologetic one you yourself accept?

Is what is true only true if you experience it ?

 

[Eternally Optimistic]

I'm not sure. I know a little bit about Catholicism but I don't know the reasoning behind why Catholics pray to saints. I'd definitely like to know, if you don't mind explaining.

It comes from the Catholic understanding of the nature of the Church. We see the Church as a living organic Body in which as members are a part of one another by virtue of being a part of the Body, which shares one Divine Head, Spirit, and Heart. Thus we believe those members of the Body who have gone before us, who as Scripture says, "know as they are known" and see clearly as they see Him as He is" in addition to being examples for our lives, can and do continue to pray for those who ask for their intercession, for again as Scripture says, "the continual prayer of a just man availeth much."

Thus there is One Mediator, many intercessors to Him.

 

[JediMobius]

Scripture also says they rejoice over the conversion of every sinner. Imagine that -- being able to be aware of the whole world and know when a sinner repents -- they must be omniscient! Not.

I guess I am more curious -- it seems that with such a focus on physical ears as being necessary for communication -- does that mean those in heaven now have no way to 'hear' each other? Basically deaf mutes until the resurrection of the body?

This scripture?

Luke 15:7 NKJV - "I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance."

Luk 15:10 NKJV - "Likewise, I say to you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents."​

However, it simply states that there is joy in heaven, nothing is said about who is doing the rejoicing, but then in verse 10 it says "in the presence of the angels of God." It would be a stretch to assume that anyone or anything other than joy is in their presence, as the only explicitly scriptural thing in their presence is joy.

 

[JediMobius]

If God wills them to, why not ?

I would think that the experience of the "time" of eternity is not quite the same as the experience of the time of earth; do you ?

I think eternity (which can more or less be called heaven) exists entirely outside of time and the entire physical universe. But this creates a problem for hagiography. If the saints can hear our prayers, they hear them outside of time, in eternity. But then, the congregation of the saints in heaven/eternity would have to include all the saints, not only those who have died, but those who are alive now, and those who have yet to live. That would be chaos, I think. God is a God of order, not chaos, that much we should be able to agree. Further, if my name is truly written in the book of life, as is the hope of my faith, then according to the implications of hagiography, I would be able to hear my own prayer in heaven at the moment I make it here on earth. That seems oddly self-serving.