Saints; can we pray to them? Can they hear us?

[Thekla]

So, does being absent from the body and present with the Lord mean that such a person becomes omnipresent and omniscient in the process in order to be everywhere at the same time so that they can hear all the prayers addressed to them and able to respond to them immediately?

What is heard of God is heard through the Holy Spirit, who binds all Christians in/to the body of Christ.

How else did Paul hear the prayer of the Macedonian man, but through God ?

(And was it to the Corinthians that he said that though he was absent from them, he knew conditions there 'in the Spirit' ?)

 

[Incariol]

So, does being absent from the body and present with the Lord mean that such a person becomes omnipresent and omniscient in the process in order to be everywhere at the same time so that they can hear all the prayers addressed to them and able to respond to them immediately?

 

[bbbbbbb]

 

[bbbbbbb]

What is heard of God is heard through the Holy Spirit, who binds all Christians in/to the body of Christ.

How else did Paul hear the prayer of the Macedonian man, but through God ?

(And was it to the Corinthians that he said that though he was absent from them, he knew conditions there 'in the Spirit' ?)

If this is the case, what is the point of addressing any prayers to saints rather than to God who hears our prayers through the Holy Spirit?

 

[Thekla]

If this is the case, what is the point of addressing any prayers to saints rather than to God who hears our prayers through the Holy Spirit?

Paul heard the prayer of the Macedonian man through the Holy Spirit (the term used is one of the Greek terms meaning "pray", and was addressed to Paul).

 

[Incariol]

Feast of All Saints Day - Thrice Happy are ye, all ye Saints and elect of God (Beati Estis) - YouTube

 

[Aibrean]

Paul heard the prayer of the Macedonian man through the Holy Spirit (the term used is one of the Greek terms meaning "pray", and was addressed to Paul).

Paul was also quite alive.

 

[Thekla]

Paul was also quite alive.

Alive, and far removed by distance.

Our 'hearing' is not only physical but there is also the spiritual hearing. Paul "heard" the prayer of the Macedonian man, and "heard/knew" the conditions in Corinth in the Holy Spirit.

I do not doubt the "ability" of the God.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Alive, and far removed by distance.

Our 'hearing' is not only physical but there is also the spiritual hearing. Paul "heard" the prayer of the Macedonian man, and "heard/knew" the conditions in Corinth in the Holy Spirit.

I do not doubt the "ability" of the God.

The question is whether or not the Macedonian chap was an actual living person transported mystically to St. Paul or merely a vision of a Macedonian man given by God to St. Paul on the order of the vision given to Peter with the huge sheet full of all manner of forbidden things to eat. Acts 16:9 states explicitly that it was a vision and not an actual person.

 

[Thekla]

The question is whether or not the Macedonian chap was an actual living person transported mystically to St. Paul or merely a vision of a Macedonian man given by God to St. Paul on the order of the vision given to Peter with the huge sheet full of all manner of forbidden things to eat. Acts 16:9 states explicitly that it was a vision and not an actual person.

I don't think that there is any indication that the Macedonian man was "transported". Instead - as with Paul knowing 'in the spirit/Spirit' (Corinthians) and being caught up into the Heavens - there is an understanding that the physical ears and eyes are not the center of spiritual hearing and seeing.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

You know .. i'll meet your praying to saints with having dead people confessing sins through me .

 

[bbbbbbb]

I don't think that there is any indication that the Macedonian man was "transported". Instead - as with Paul knowing 'in the spirit/Spirit' (Corinthians) and being caught up into the Heavens - there is an understanding that the physical ears and eyes are not the center of spiritual hearing and seeing.

Do you believe that the vision that Peter had was intrinsically different than this vision of Paul's? If so, what makes them different?

 

[Thekla]

Do you believe that the vision that Peter had was intrinsically different than this vision of Paul's? If so, what makes them different?

Peter addresses the voice he hears as "Lord" - and I tend to think Peter heard Christ speak (as did Paul on the road to Damascus). What Peter saw was an explication of what he heard; this made what was said quite clear.

Cornelius (also Acts 10) was spoken to by an angel - again, he "heard" in what is described as a vision.

In these three instances the speaker is identified, and there is no reason to question the identification as particular, not "ideas" speaking. Likewise the vision of Steven, at his death.

Adding in the experience of Paul, I understand all of these to be instances of spiritual "hearing/seeing", in the Holy Spirit, not reliant on the physical sense organs. So I understand the Macedonian man to be also not an idea, but particular, making entreaty where the entreaty is conveyed in the Holy Spirit.

To add: While Peter was still thinking about the vision, the Spirit said to him, “Simon, three men are looking for you. So get up and go downstairs. Do not hesitate to go with them, for I have sent them.”(also Acts 10) Again a particular (the Holy Spirit), not an idea, is identified as speaking.

 

[Matariki]

I've said it before and I'll say it again:

What can the saints do that God can't do?

 

[Thekla]

If God did not mean to involve us, there would be no need for any of the apostles.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Peter addresses the voice he hears as "Lord" - and I tend to think Peter heard Christ speak (as did Paul on the road to Damascus). What Peter saw was an explication of what he heard; this made what was said quite clear.

Cornelius (also Acts 10) was spoken to by an angel - again, he "heard" in what is described as a vision.

In these three instances the speaker is identified, and there is no reason to question the identification as particular, not "ideas" speaking. Likewise the vision of Steven, at his death.

Adding in the experience of Paul, I understand all of these to be instances of spiritual "hearing/seeing", in the Holy Spirit, not reliant on the physical sense organs. So I understand the Macedonian man to be also not an idea, but particular, making entreaty where the entreaty is conveyed in the Holy Spirit.

To add: While Peter was still thinking about the vision, the Spirit said to him, “Simon, three men are looking for you. So get up and go downstairs. Do not hesitate to go with them, for I have sent them.”(also Acts 10) Again a particular (the Holy Spirit), not an idea, is identified as speaking.

Thank you for your excellent reply. I understand there are (at least) four visions in the book of Acts which involve divine beings - Steven's vision at this martyrdom, Paul's conversion, Peter's experience on the rooftop, and Cornelius' vision of the angel. In these visions we see the human participants addressing (praying to) the divine beings.

The vision of Paul of the Macedonian man is similar, but different in certain aspects. There is no reason not to think that the Macedonian man is visionary (i.e. spiritual and non-corporeal in nature). That is to say, he appeared in a vision and did not simply walk up to Paul and address him as an ordinary person. The man addresses (prays to) Paul who is very much alive at that point. Paul does not address the man in any way. The man did not request the intercession of Paul, but requested him to come and help them.

If there is any connection with the intercession of Saints in heaven and the Macedonian vision it is rather far-fetched IMO.

 

[bbbbbbb]

If God did not mean to involve us, there would be no need for any of the apostles.

Could you please elaborate on this?

 

[Philothei]

I've said it before and I'll say it again:

What can the saints do that God can't do?

Why Paul was asked to pray over people? Why do we pray for each other?

 

[Thekla]

Thank you for your excellent reply. I understand there are (at least) four visions in the book of Acts which involve divine beings - Steven's vision at this martyrdom, Paul's conversion, Peter's experience on the rooftop, and Cornelius' vision of the angel. In these visions we see the human participants addressing (praying to) the divine beings.

The vision of Paul of the Macedonian man is similar, but different in certain aspects. There is no reason not to think that the Macedonian man is visionary (i.e. spiritual and non-corporeal in nature). That is to say, he appeared in a vision and did not simply walk up to Paul and address him as an ordinary person. The man addresses (prays to) Paul who is very much alive at that point. Paul does not address the man in any way. The man did not request the intercession of Paul, but requested him to come and help them.

If there is any connection with the intercession of Saints in heaven and the Macedonian vision it is rather far-fetched IMO.

To interceded is actually to act on behalf of another; one can do this as prayer or also as an action. The request of the Macedonian man is a request for action on the part of Paul.

To return to my central point - the spiritual hearing is not reliant on the physical (ephemeral) ability to hear. Spiritual hearing is reliant on God - and I do not doubt God's power.

 

[Thekla]

Could you please elaborate on this?

Re: the post concerning what the Saints can do that God cannot -- on the first hand, the question makes no sense to me as it requires a sort of separation. But, per my comment, God indeed does ask of humans to engage in doing "His work" - on synergia. The post skips the history of God working in and with people.