Saints; can we pray to them? Can they hear us?

[laconicstudent]

On the Veneration of the Holy Relics and Remains of the Saints

Hey Zazal read this and post here your questions Hope that would help

I used to think relics were weird, but I've since realized how exciting and thoroughly Biblical they are. I was amazed at how they are throughout the Old and New Testaments.

 

[Zeek]

I used to think relics were weird, but I've since realized how exciting and thoroughly Biblical they are. I was amazed at how they are throughout the Old and New Testaments.

I've read the site you posted...some of the things said were rather odd.

Christians are convinced and deeply believe that the "friends of God" who have come out of great tribulation and have made their robes white in the Blood of the Lamb, abide now before the throne of God and serve Him day and night in His temple (Rev. 7:14-15).

From what I understand the great tribulation has not occurred yet, and what John was seeing in this instance was a vision of the future.

Those who deny God and who reduce everything to matter are in no position to understand the miracles of the Gospel. The majority of Protestants do not believe in the Resurrection of Christ and deny His divine nature.

Do you believe this?

The article concludes with this:-

The veneration of the remains of the holy strugglers, the cultus of our spiritual forebears, the friends of God, the communion with them in prayer—all of these constitute an object of faith. In the Christian religion much is mysterious and incomprehensible to many, but Christians do not doubt, continuing to honor the Saints' remains, for the bases of this are to be found in the Sacred Scriptures. The American preacher Warren Kendler said: "He that harbors any doubts in our faith and who strives to twist it is doing the devil's work." Those of the Protestants and sectarians who have lost the remaining vestiges of their own faith and endeavor to spread their bankrupt belief among their neighbors indeed do "the devil's work." And we should recall the words of Christ the Savior which He spoke to the woman whom He had healed of an issue of blood: "Daughter, be of good comfort, thy faith hath made thee whole" (Mt. 9:22).

I don't understand what the article really has to do with the belief one can communicate with selected dead Saints....it is all to do with relics, and how the nasty unbelieving Protestants reject such things.

Regarding relics....they are not my scene....and have no bearing on my faith or the way I live my life...there seems to be rather an unhealthy focus on relics in some quarters, and this article has used the whole idea of them to knock their brethren who do not hold them in the same esteem which doesn't seem right.

 

[Philothei]

In the apostolic Church, all the remains of the "friends of God," the righteous strugglers (I Cor. 9:25), were referred to as relics—bones, heads, hair, hands, feet, and sometimes entire bodies, if they were preserved, through which the Lord God is glorified by mysterious wonders. The Protestant Lutherans and all sectarians reject the veneration of the holy remains of Christian strugglers, and, like the heretics of times past, laugh at this pious custom and scoff at Orthodox Christians who call upon the friends of God in their prayers to Him. The sectarians, without any serious proof, maintain that it is nowhere proclaimed in the Bible that we should honor the friends of God (Jn. 15:14), to reverence the remains of the holy martyrs and ascetics, and to glorify in sacred hymns those who have suffered for Christ, shedding their blood.
Of course, the question of the veneration and glorification of the holy martyrs, and the ascetics that served Christ during their life without the shedding of their blood, touches upon a number of beliefs—the impious reject them all. They do not believe in God, they do not acknowledge the immortality of the soul, they reject even man's conscience and feeling of shame and accept only material things, disregarding the spiritual realm. The communists blaspheme, making a mockery of the relics of the holy ascetics; but for believers, relics are objects of great veneration, and this is why, from the days of the apostles, Christians have reverently honored both the martyrs themselves and all the "friends of God"—the ascetics, and their bones, as well as all their remains.

On the Veneration of the Holy Relics and Remains of the Saints


With all due respect you took the above text from this site:
Relics : St Basil the Great Orthodox Church

I NEVER posted that but the Orthodox Info center had that ^ what I posted above. It makes no claims of such .... Look it over please and stop makin accusations. and missrepresenting what I post! .. Thanks

Just to make clear here we are not accusing others of being either non-Christian or of Satan...Just because you found a site that does that and happens to be EO does not make all of us EO to believe in that. That does not point to what the official Church has to say for the ones who DONOT venerate the sainst as we have a lot of breathren who deny to venerate also. IT is a PRACTICE rather than a dogma... Veneration is a practice and like fasting is viewed upon and talked over iwth one's spiritual father.

I would appreciate your comments on Archbishop's Lazar video

 

[Zeek]

On the Veneration of the Holy Relics and Remains of the Saints


With all due respect you took the above text from this site:
Relics : St Basil the Great Orthodox Church

I NEVER posted that but the Orthodox Info center had that ^ what I posted above. It makes no claims of such .... Look it over please and stop makin accusations. and missrepresenting what I post! .. Thanks

Excuse me....I was responding to the site that Laconic Student had put up, and asked me to read and come back with questions...so I have no idea why you are getting hot under the collar...I haven't made any accusations or misrepresentations to my knowledge...please clarify.

Just to make clear here we are not accusing others of being either non-Christian or of Satan...Just because you found a site that does that and happens to be EO does not make all of us EO to believe in that.

Again I merely visited the site that LS put up....and I asked the question because I did not believe that it was official doctrine, and wondered why LS gave me such a crummy link, as though it had some good stuff to discuss.

That does not point to what the official Church has to say for the ones who DONOT venerate the sainst as we have a lot of breathren who deny to venerate also. IT is a PRACTICE rather than a dogma... Veneration is a practice and like fasting is viewed upon and talked over iwth one's spiritual father.

I can dig that.

I would appreciate your comments on Archbishop's Lazar video

You know something, I keep getting people to ask me to read this or watch that, and it is really time consuming as I have spread myself a wee bit thin this last week....but I fully intend to do so and will comment on Archbishop Lazars vid soon....I also have a lot to consider regarding the Eucharist. (you still never answered my question that I asked 5 times....but don't worry about it any more)

 

[Philothei]

Zazal,

The videos are including the verses you were looking for. You just have to watch them ok?

 

[Zeek]

For our purposes on Earth, the Saints are dead people...we know by faith their spirits are with the L-rd, and that they will eventually be reclothed in transformed bodies...but they do not have interaction with G-ds people on earth now despite teaching that says they do...it just isn't true.

How can you be so sure though.... In the west they believe in ghosts... I do not but the spiritual world is "just as alive" as the physical world... There are miracles that testify to this... Saints's shoes been changed for they have worn their soles... even so their class cases are sealed...Are these mysteries? How can a saint do this? How do we have miracles,healings, apparitions etc? All of it is a lie that we all keep going for the sake of keeping our faith in the saints? For 2,000 years now if all this was fake then we would have somehow found out...about it. You can go ahead and believe that it is not hapenning you do not have to believe...But please do not accuse others for believing in them

I'm not trying to accuse the brethren....but I am trying to point out that all the so-called proof in the world means nothing if it goes against what has been taught in Scripture....that is the final arbiter. Stories of Saints shoes being worn etc etc do not impress me...I don't need to hear miraculous stories to know that G-d performs healings and miracles...and yes, maybe some of the things that have happened through relics are possible...but Saints thenselves have no personal interaction with G-ds people on earth....the Bible does not teach it, or intimate at it, and therefore I choose not to follow that tradition or custom, I don't think it is right.



Death & the Future Life

Nope. EO does not believe in "sianz"(spelling?)... Like I said the spritual world is not a "channel" for ghost hanting... Nothing to do with this sort of pagan practices that are left to the secular world. Actually the official church anathematizes the ones who practice these practices. Relatives are NOT considered saints and never approached like that... The "sainthood" is granted to the ones (who are with the Lord) and they have exhibited saintly living life that has to do with miracles that took place while living that continued after their death. The last "lay saint" i remember (living in Athens) was a doctor who was characterized for his charity and spiritual demeanor. After now 40 years I think the synod has decided to call him "osios" (not exactly saint but close to it) Our most recent canonized Saint in Greece is St. Nectarios of Aegina. He is associated for his humility of his character and his miracles while he was alive that have continued after his physical death.

Ok, thanks for clearing that up


http://www.fatheralexander.org/booklets/english/saint_nektarios_egina_e.htm

Saint Nektarios

Actually I know his nephew in real life and I reassure you that they do not feel that they can communicate with him exclusevely that would be a blasphemy to God indeed. My father personally had a miracle taking place (was a stubborn agnostic until his late 60's ) and came to believe because of seeing the Virgin Mary in his sleep. To make a long story short Theotokos told him that his surgery will be ok. And she told him her name (in greece we have local names for Theotokos according to the name of the places she has appeared to people) and that in all honesty my dad never heard before...He was not a strong believer more a doubter... Well we found out there exists such place and such icon that dipicts the Theotokos. But the further proof that he saw her was that upon visitation of the actual icon my dad said... "no this is not her icon this is NOT who I saw" and when he asked they told him that the actual icon was removed from the monastery for it was taken to another village for veneration.... :o That was indeed the point...that he saw her the way she was dipicted in the icon...The next day when he saw the 'real icon' he started to cry...as that was the image of Theotokos he saw in his sleep.

http://www.fatheralexander.org/booklets/english/saint_nektarios_egina_e.htm

I can't really argue against what happened to your father...all I say is that dreams and visions have to line up with G-ds truth.

The saints are with the Lord...we either beleive it or not ....I think the fact that Adam and Eve are pulled up ... from their graves...shows where they are ...At least shows the intent of Christ....

Never doubted every departed Believer is with the L-rd..I believe it.

Archbishop Lazar ^ I thought it is truly worth listening to^ Since he says that the Holy Spirit is the communicant of the Glorified saints and the ones who live on earth(us) There it goes the question you had about how we communicate... Not the same as "ghost" like communication...
1Cor. 5.4 it proves that Paul beleives we communicate to him in the Spirit

I just finished listening to all three Youtube vids.

I liked most of what the Archbishop said, but I have never said that Orthodox pray to Saints instead of Jesus, as he was saying these Baptists wrongly accused them of doing. I believe it is a dilution of our faith to incorporate prayer to Saints and Mary.



He said the souls of Saints draw divine eregies from G-d and thus can be used by G-d to aid those of us on Earth....sound interesting, but really has no biblical basis whatsoever.

He also said prayerful communication with Saints brings us closer to Jesus...again I do not see it demonstrated, taught or even touched on in the Bible...nor in the Old Testament, so I will not go down that road...our closeness to G-d develops out of relationship, through holiness, and by the communication of the Holy Spirit showing us the Fathers ways, and revealing the Father heart of G-d.

1 Cor 5:4 is hardly a proof text for communicating with departed Saints

3 For I, on my part, though absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged him who has so committed this, as though I were present. 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus, when you are assembled, and I with you in spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus, 5 I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

It just shows Paul prayed about the situation, and made a decision as if he was there amongst them.

I think in this day and age, we have to be especially careful in what we believe, and the only real safe-guard is to see what Scripture says, and to always seek the guidence of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Philothei]

For our purposes on Earth, the Saints are dead people...we know by faith their spirits are with the L-rd, and that they will eventually be reclothed in transformed bodies...but they do not have interaction with G-ds people on earth now despite teaching that says they do...it just isn't true.




I'm not trying to accuse the brethren....but I am trying to point out that all the so-called proof in the world means nothing if it goes against what has been taught in Scripture....that is the final arbiter. Stories of Saints shoes being worn etc etc do not impress me...I don't need to hear miraculous stories to know that G-d performs healings and miracles...and yes, maybe some of the things that have happened through relics are possible...but Saints thenselves have no personal interaction with G-ds people on earth....the Bible does not teach it, or intimate at it, and therefore I choose not to follow that tradition or custom, I don't think it is right.



Death & the Future Life




Ok, thanks for clearing that up




I can't really argue against what happened to your father...all I say is that dreams and visions have to line up with G-ds truth.




Never doubted every departed Believer is with the L-rd..I believe it.




I just finished listening to all three Youtube vids.

I liked most of what the Archbishop said, but I have never said that Orthodox pray to Saints instead of Jesus, as he was saying these Baptists wrongly accused them of doing. I believe it is a dilution of our faith to incorporate prayer to Saints and Mary.



He said the souls of Saints draw divine eregies from G-d and thus can be used by G-d to aid those of us on Earth....sound interesting, but really has no biblical basis whatsoever.

He also said prayerful communication with Saints brings us closer to Jesus...again I do not see it demonstrated, taught or even touched on in the Bible...nor in the Old Testament, so I will not go down that road...our closeness to G-d develops out of relationship, through holiness, and by the communication of the Holy Spirit showing us the Fathers ways, and revealing the Father heart of G-d.

1 Cor 5:4 is hardly a proof text for communicating with departed Saints

3 For I, on my part, though absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged him who has so committed this, as though I were present. 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus, when you are assembled, and I with you in spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus, 5 I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

It just shows Paul prayed about the situation, and made a decision as if he was there amongst them.

I think in this day and age, we have to be especially careful in what we believe, and the only real safe-guard is to see what Scripture says, and to always seek the guidence of the Holy Spirit.

Zazal it is like this. This practice to pray through saints has been hapening over 2,000 years. If that was not the rightful way to pray God would not have us destroyed or divide us to the point that "no good fruit would come out of it" . Do not forget that the Lord was asked for the ones who were taking out Demons from people ... *by other men* and the Lord said that as long as they attributted the healing to God then it was not against God.

So I woud not be hasty to cut down a tradition so much inbeded since the first Christian Church

 

[Philothei]

11 God did extraordinary miracles through Paul, 12 so that even handkerchiefs and aprons that had touched him were taken to the sick, and their illnesses were cured and the evil spirits left them.
13 Some Jews who went around driving out evil spirits tried to invoke the name of the Lord Jesus over those who were demon-possessed. They would say, “In the name of the Jesus whom Paul preaches, I command you to come out.” 14 Seven sons of Sceva, a Jewish chief priest, were doing this. 15 One day the evil spirit answered them, “Jesus I know, and Paul I know about, but who are you?” 16 Then the man who had the evil spirit jumped on them and overpowered them all. He gave them such a beating that they ran out of the house naked and bleeding.

17 When this became known to the Jews and Greeks living in Ephesus, they were all seized with fear, and the name of the Lord Jesus was held in high honor. 18 Many of those who believed now came and openly confessed what they had done. 19 A number who had practiced sorcery brought their scrolls together and burned them publicly. When they calculated the value of the scrolls, the total came to fifty thousand drachmas.[c] 20 In this way the word of the Lord spread widely and grew in power.

This is acts 19. As you can see the handerkeif of Paul has indeed been graced by God to do miracles in HIS name.

And if you follow along these verses you can see how the Jews were indeed "punished" for trying to usurp the authority of Christ and Paul...For they were praying to BOTH..And the unclean spirit said I KNOW THEM BOTH...but do not know YOU... So I think that it is ok to be praying to Christ and Paul (he was still alive but regardless he is with us in spirit ; Paul said that ) . So if you are NOT a true believer in Christ healing will indeed back fire and the source of all healing has to do with the person's disposition. the saints or Christ is not magic... But a true believer is granted grace and mercy through ultimately his faith. As Christ says "your faith has saved you" .

 

[Zeek]

This is acts 19. As you can see the handerkeif of Paul has indeed been graced by God to do miracles in HIS name.

And if you follow along these verses you can see how the Jews were indeed "punished" for trying to usurp the authority of Christ and Paul...For they were praying to BOTH..And the unclean spirit said I KNOW THEM BOTH...but do not know YOU... So I think that it is ok to be praying to Christ and Paul (he was still alive but regardless he is with us in spirit ; Paul said that ) . So if you are NOT a true believer in Christ healing will indeed back fire and the source of all healing has to do with the person's disposition. the saints or Christ is not magic... But a true believer is granted grace and mercy through ultimately his faith. As Christ says "your faith has saved you" .

I have no problem with any of these things...I have seen my friends daughter get healed from a fever when an anointed handkerchief was laid on her...but the focus was not on the person who prayed for the grace of G-d to minister through the handkerchief (it was passed around) but on G-d for performing the healings. Likewise with Peter or Paul, the miracles that G-d wrought through them, were more of a confirmation of His power and authority working through them by the Holy Spirit...they would have stopped anyone from assuming they had any power themselves, or praying to them.

You must be careful no to build too much around the expression 'with us in spirit' and try to see a fuller picture. Say you asked me to pray for you, I would quiet myself before G-d, think about you and allow the Holy Spirit to guide me in how I prayed for you...So the same Spirit in me is in you, and in that sense I am with you in spirit. (that is not exactly how it is, but hopefully it explains what I think the sense of that phrase is a little clearer)....it is easy to take Scripture to fit doctrine/dogma, rather than draw our understanding from the context of Scripture.

 

[Philothei]

I have no problem with any of these things...I have seen my friends daughter get healed from a fever when an anointed handkerchief was laid on her...but the focus was not on the person who prayed for the grace of G-d to minister through the handkerchief (it was passed around) but on G-d for performing the healings. Likewise with Peter or Paul, the miracles that G-d wrought through them, were more of a confirmation of His power and authority working through them by the Holy Spirit...they would have stopped anyone from assuming they had any power themselves, or praying to them.

You must be careful no to build too much around the expression 'with us in spirit' and try to see a fuller picture. Say you asked me to pray for you, I would quiet myself before G-d, think about you and allow the Holy Spirit to guide me in how I prayed for you...So the same Spirit in me is in you, and in that sense I am with you in spirit. (that is not exactly how it is, but hopefully it explains what I think the sense of that phrase is a little clearer)....it is easy to take Scripture to fit doctrine/dogma, rather than draw our understanding from the context of Scripture.

If a material such as a handkerchief can become a 'vessel of grace' then think how much more when a human body that has been blessed byy the grace of God can work though that grace. It is a matter of "focus" not ONLY the vessel that the saints give glory to HIM and HIM alone. It would be different story if that so called saint was giving glory to another god *small g" or to himself...

 

[Zeek]

Zazal it is like this. This practice to pray through saints has been hapening over 2,000 years. If that was not the rightful way to pray God would not have us destroyed or divide us to the point that "no good fruit would come out of it" . Do not forget that the Lord was asked for the ones who were taking out Demons from people ... *by other men* and the Lord said that as long as they attributted the healing to God then it was not against God.

So I woud not be hasty to cut down a tradition so much inbeded since the first Christian Church

You are right that I am a bit hasty at times when I comment...forgive me.

I am really trying to understand some of the Orthodox and Catholic traditions/dogma/doctrine etc...and in some cases I react mostly out of spontaneous concern, but I am gradually becoming more reflective.

I suppose with anything like this when one comes against things you have never heard or entertained....you feel that by hearing them you are compromising what you have always believed to be true, and that they necessitate correction from Scripture. I really do try and get to the heart of the matter though, but time is limited.

The Church Universal is very diverse in her traditions, and it is quite possible that parts of it have been wrong for hundreds of years...length of time is no substitute for the truth (in fact it makes it harder to strip away what is wrong)...you have only to look at the history of Israel to see how easily they corrupted the purity of what G-d gave them through Moses, and how they incorporated their own man made religions into the worship of G-d...some were completely given over to false gods...others had a mixture etc etc.

 

[Philothei]

Now as far as the communication we have the Abraham versus the Rich man parable that testifies to the communication between the spiritual and physical world. The reason we do not see the spiritual world is because we do not have enough faith or that Christ choses for us not to be visual to us. Like our Spiritual Fathers (elders monastics) Christ is shy he won't manifest himself to us because He repsects us and our free will. He wants us to come to Him... Example is my father who indeed had to mature in his quest for Him so Christ though his Mother blessed him with the miracle. Again since a lot of "defamation" has occured for 500 years ago I think that people have lost their faith in the grace that God has poured to the world through His saints. The funny thing is that Muslims in Greece esp. during the occupation (400 years) have witnessed to the outpouring of the grace from the Mother of Christ who they believe fervently. Some have been so much blessed by her presence that indeed converted "secretly" to Orthodoxy. Orthodox people are not strangers to many miracles that occure daily in our lands. That outpouring would not have happened if all glory was not given and attibuted to God alone.

 

[Philothei]

The Church Universal is very diverse in her traditions, and it is quite possible that parts of it have been wrong for hundreds of years...length of time is no substitute for the truth (in fact it makes it harder to strip away what is wrong)...you have only to look at the history of Israel to see how easily they corrupted the purity of what G-d gave them through Moses, and how they incorporated their own man made religions into the worship of G-d...some were completely given over to false gods...others had a mixture etc etc.

And I understand but do not be too hasty to toss out all tradition for the sake of "political correctness" The jews were worshiping "other gods" the EO and RCC are NOT. Like I said before it is a matter of "focus" and where we give glory. The example of Christ saying that "as long as these "healers" give glory to God" is an obvious measure of how we are supposed to judge a situation. The Jews had a lot right that we give them credit for. They were piious people and were doing God's will. There wee troublemakers and the ones who were "law breakers" God would come and again set them straingt. The most serious sin they would commit was "pride" and love of money to the point of forgeting who they were most of the time... Christ condemned the Farasees... not all Jews. Some Christians forget that. Not all Jews in the time of Jesus were corrupt. If that was true Christ would not have any disciples or followers and He did. Martha, Lazarus and His family side were pious Jews.

 

[Philothei]

I also apologize for my abrassiveness at times I am sorry I come out kind of overwhelming...urgh. I understand that you have lots of digest and it must be hard coming from such a different tradition.

Forgive me....

 

[Zeek]

And I understand but do not be too hasty to toss out all tradition for the sake of "political correctness" The jews were worshiping "other gods" the EO and RCC are NOT. Like I said before it is a matter of "focus" and where we give glory. The example of Christ saying that "as long as these "healers" give glory to God" is an obvious measure of how we are supposed to judge a situation. The Jews had a lot right that we give them credit for. They were piious people and were doing God's will. There wee troublemakers and the ones who were "law breakers" God would come and again set them straingt. The most serious sin they would commit was "pride" and love of money to the point of forgeting who they were most of the time... Christ condemned the Farasees... not all Jews. Some Christians forget that. Not all Jews in the time of Jesus were corrupt. If that was true Christ would not have any disciples or followers and He did. Martha, Lazarus and His family side were pious Jews.

I have nothing at all against tradition...even if it isn't expressly biblical...my only objection comes when something traditional runs against the teaching of Scripture.

I loathe political correctness.

I support the Jewish nation and the Jewish people 100%...Jesus loved the Pharisees...spoke harsely to them because it was necessary, but many from their ranks were reputed to have been saved, including Nicodemas.

 

[Zeek]

I also apologize for my abrassiveness at times I am sorry I come out kind of overwhelming...urgh. I understand that you have lots of digest and it must be hard coming from such a different tradition.

Forgive me....

Of course I do gladly Philothei...you can't look into a persons eyes on a Forum, or hear the way they speak...so when we get heated in what we say, it can come across worse than it is.

I am always wary of compromising what I believe is true, for the sake of friendship or an easy life...but sometimes things have to be said, and hopefully amongst us as Believers, we can know that ultimately we all love the L-rd, and actually care for one another through the bond of love in the Holy Ghost...despite strong differences.

 

[FMX500]

...this thread is still alive?

 

[FMX500]

...this thread is still alive?

Oh no, it ended in March. XD

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

.


There is NOTHING that indicates that when we die, an enormous evolutionary leap happens to our sense of hearing that enables us to sense the sound waves of all those on the planet earth - including non existent ones of prayers not verbalized.

The whole concept is absurd. It's biologically BASELESS. There's NOTHING to suggest that those in heaven hear all 7 billion people on earth - even when they aren't saying anything. Truly absurd. And of course, biblically baseless.

Of course, GOD can "sense" this. And we are told to direct our prayers to Him.





.

 

[Rhamiel]

.


There is NOTHING that indicates that when we die, an enormous evolutionary leap happens to our sense of hearing that enables us to sense the sound waves of all those on the planet earth - including non existent ones of prayers not verbalized.

The whole concept is absurd. It's biologically BASELESS. There's NOTHING to suggest that those in heaven hear all 7 billion people on earth - even when they aren't saying anything. Truly absurd. And of course, biblically baseless.

Of course, GOD can "sense" this. And we are told to direct our prayers to Him.





.

you think that people on this are arguing that dead saints hear the soundwaves made by people?