Saints; can we pray to them? Can they hear us?

[laconicstudent]

Why, in the context of his previous post and your reply to it.

Ok, I still don't see it, so I'll take your word for it.

I was given no more to go on than that you think it's relevant, which should go without saying that such does not prove relevance.

You stated that I hadn't made an assertion of relevance, I agree that I haven't "proved" anything.

I beg to differ. Brushing off my entire reply is not even close to addressing the points raised within.

How did I brush it off? I acknowledged your opinion and opined that you had departed from orthodox position of the Apostolic Church.

Do you really have no way to reconcile the scripture I included with your belief?

I do, but I'm not terribly interested in writing a dissertation on the subject right now.

A conclusion is merely where one tires of thinking.

Did I state that I stopped thinking? Really, must you descend to insulting me?

 

[JediMobius]

I'll take this doctrine in a slightly different direction.

1st Corinthians 15:51-53
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in a twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

1st Thessalonians 4:14-17
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

If it can be said that the "dead in Christ" are only asleep, and still alive, to which semantics I could not reasonably object, then they are still asleep now, and not available for intercession. It should still be noted, however, that the Greek word used for sleep here is figuratively death. Look it up in Strong's if you don't believe me.

 

[Zeek]

I suspect he rested his case not in agreement with you, but in observing that your theology in regard to his points is rather incomprehensive.

To elaborate, points 1, 2, and 3 point out flaws in the position that Christians never die in any way which must be addressed, countered, and refuted for the position to continue viably.

Perceptive and a direct hit...(you've sunk my battleship)...good to meet you LT ....I wasn't waving the white flag, as you properly surmised, I just expected my friend LS would give some nebulous reply....and low and behold he did.

I think the whole concept of what goes on after death is a very grey area in many ways, and G-d has chosen not to reveal an enormous amount of detail...so to some extent we have to do some inspired guess work, and just hold lightly a number of possibilities....but the Catholic and Orthodox brethren seem to be privvy to exactly what goes on, and I find it a constant source of bafflement.

 

[laconicstudent]

I'll take this doctrine in a slightly different direction.

1st Corinthians 15:51-53
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in a twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

1st Thessalonians 4:14-17
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

If it can be said that the "dead in Christ" are only asleep, and still alive, to which semantics I could not reasonably object, then they are still asleep now, and not available for intercession. It should still be noted, however, that the Greek word used for sleep here is figuratively death. Look it up in Strong's if you don't believe me.

Revelations shows pretty clearly that they aren't asleep, what with the martyrs calling out to God for their blood to be avenged and their prayers being offered up as incense.

 

[JediMobius]

How did I brush it off? I acknowledged your opinion and opined that you had departed from orthodox position of the Apostolic Church.

Therein lies the brush-off. My points were not noted, refuted, or otherwise addressed. Labeling unorthodoxy as such and going no further is no defense for the orthodox position, and in no way leads anyone to the truth. It's not as though God's truth and spiritual reality are matters of opinion. Either a proposition is true, or its negation is. There is no middle ground, no compromise.

I do, but I'm not terribly interested in writing a dissertation on the subject right now.

You couldn't even sum it up? What's the point of replying at all if you don't have the time to make it worthwhile? Do you not care that a brother in Christ is wrong? One of us is, that's the short of it. I suppose if it's me, no big deal, but if it's the orthodox doctrine that's wrong, that could be idolatry. Beside all that, it's just plain decent to actually commit to the discussion you're involved.

Did I state that I stopped thinking? Really, must you descend to insulting me?

Must you take it as an insult? I made an observation on the nature of conclusions. If you are insulted, it must be that you have indeed ceased to consider that what you have previously regarded as true (conclusion) may not be.

 

[laconicstudent]

Therein lies the brush-off. My points were not noted, refuted, or otherwise addressed. Labeling unorthodoxy as such and going no further is no defense for the orthodox position, and in no way leads anyone to the truth. It's not as though God's truth and spiritual reality are matters of opinion. Either a proposition is true, or its negation is. There is no middle ground, no compromise.

Ok, Life After Death by St. John Maximovitch, a description of the first 40 days after death

You couldn't even sum it up?

No.

What's the point of replying at all if you don't have the time to make it worthwhile?

Its worthwhile for me. My reasons for posting on this forum are quite selfish.

Do you not care that a brother in Christ is wrong? One of us is, that's the short of it.

Ok.

I suppose if it's me, no big deal, but if it's the orthodox doctrine that's wrong, that could be idolatry. Beside all that, it's just plain decent to actually commit to the discussion you're involved.

What you mean is, "its just plain decent to actually commit to the discussion you're involved to the degree I decide that you shall be", yes?

Must you take it as an insult? I made an observation on the nature of conclusions. If you are insulted, it must be that you have indeed ceased to consider that what you have previously regarded as true (conclusion) may not be.

No, I'm annoyed at your insinuation that people disagree with you because they don't think.

In common parlance, "conclusion" refers to an answer reached at a point in time, it doesn't mean that said question will never again be addressed.

 

[JediMobius]

Revelations shows pretty clearly that they aren't asleep, what with the martyrs calling out to God for their blood to be avenged and their prayers being offered up as incense.

As I noted earlier, Revelation is highly symbolic.

Think of it this way. Abel's blood cried out to God from the soil, and God immediately exercised at least a portion of his wrath on Cain. Since Christ's ministry, however, that wrath has been held back. So, to illustrate how it has been stored up and is about to be released in the day of the Lord, we are given a visual of martyrs underneath the throne - literally underneath, like dust under feet, or under a bed, that's a strange place for saints to live - and prayers as incense, which is definitely not actually incense, it's just acting as incense. How you (by extension, orthodoxy) can make the leaps you have off of this one passage that isn't about the martyrs at all, but about the Day of the Lord, is beyond me.

 

[laconicstudent]

As I noted earlier, Revelation is highly symbolic.

And I think you are wrong. Yay.

Think of it this way. Abel's blood cried out to God from the soil, and God immediately exercised at least a portion of his wrath on Cain. Since Christ's ministry, however, that wrath has been held back. So, to illustrate how it has been stored up and is about to be released in the day of the Lord, we are given a visual of martyrs underneath the throne - literally underneath, like dust under feet, or under a bed, that's a strange place for saints to live - and prayers as incense, which is definitely not actually incense, it's just acting as incense. How you (by extension, orthodoxy) can make the leaps you have off of this one passage that isn't about the martyrs at all, but about the Day of the Lord.

Is that a question?

 

[Philothei]

Christians most definitely die. We will no longer walk on this world, we will only be alive in Christ. There is no strong scriptural evidence that Christians go immediately in heaven. In fact, it is the dead in Christ who will rise first (1 Thessalonians 4:16) and if they are risen, it must be from the grave. The only passage I can think that even suggests souls in heaven before the second coming and the raising of the dead is in Revelation, and that's all highly symbolic.

Yes, we will have eternal life. Yes, that eternal existence begins at conversion, but life must follow the order of the creator. The physical must die, and the spiritual will rise again. Even Jesus Christ was in the grave three days, how could we expect any Christian to escape it? We take up the cross, not skip past it.

What do you call it then the thrief on the cross? Christ says he will be with him... in paradise...Was Christ lying ?

 

[JediMobius]

Ok, Life After Death by St. John Maximovitch, a description of the first 40 days after death

I'm reading a lot in this link that says we need good works and other human efforts to get to heaven, even with the work of the cross. Here I thought the Grace of Christ was enough. This teaching is wrong. What I understand from these texts is that the blood of Christ is insufficient to secure a believer to heaven, but we will need alms-giving, prayers, and a little more effort as souls to make our way to heaven. What a lie satan has worked into the words of these saints. I'm sorry, but the good shepherd wouldn't leave a departed soul to suffer demons and dark spirits which could trap it and drag it to the grave.

Then, having successfully passed through the toll-houses and bowed down before God, the soul for the course of 37 more days visits the heavenly habitations and the abysses of hell, not knowing yet where it will remain, and only on the fortieth day is its place appointed until the resurrection of the dead. [5] Some souls find themselves (after the forty days) in a condition of foretasting eternal joy and blessedness, and others in fear of the eternal torments which will come in full after the Last Judgment. Until then changes are possible in the condition of souls, especially through offering for them the Bloodless Sacrifice (commemoration at the Liturgy), and likewise by other prayers.​

Who's the agent of salvation here? The church?

Its worthwhile for me. My reasons for posting on this forum are quite selfish.

I would hope that is not a serious reply.

What you mean is, "its just plain decent to actually commit to the discussion you're involved to the degree I decide that you shall be", yes?

Actually, no, that's not at all what I mean.

No, I'm annoyed at your insinuation that people disagree with you because they don't think.

I do apologize if my tendency to be blunt in serious discussion comes off harshly. I don't make insinuations, and that's neither my disposition nor meaning. That statement was about the nature of conclusions and nothing else. I inferred that you had already reached your conclusion on the matter, but I imply nothing. "A conclusion is where we tire of thinking" Analyze it, compare it to your method and experience, dismiss it, do what you will, but don't take it as an insult.

In common parlance, "conclusion" refers to an answer reached at a point in time, it doesn't mean that said question will never again be addressed.

Well, no, but it does generally mean that, once addressed, the conclusion will take precedence and will not be subject to change.

 

[laconicstudent]

I'm reading a lot in this link that says we need good works and other human efforts to get to heaven, even with the work of the cross. Here I thought the Grace of Christ was enough. This teaching is wrong. What I understand from these texts is that the blood of Christ is insufficient to secure a believer to heaven, but we will need alms-giving, prayers, and a little more effort as souls to make our way to heaven. What a lie satan has worked into the words of these saints. I'm sorry, but the good shepherd wouldn't leave a departed soul to suffer demons and dark spirits which could trap it and drag it to the grave.

Then, having successfully passed through the toll-houses and bowed down before God, the soul for the course of 37 more days visits the heavenly habitations and the abysses of hell, not knowing yet where it will remain, and only on the fortieth day is its place appointed until the resurrection of the dead. [5] Some souls find themselves (after the forty days) in a condition of foretasting eternal joy and blessedness, and others in fear of the eternal torments which will come in full after the Last Judgment. Until then changes are possible in the condition of souls, especially through offering for them the Bloodless Sacrifice (commemoration at the Liturgy), and likewise by other prayers.​

Who's the agent of salvation here? The church?

And now you see why I didn't bother wasting my time before, since you just dismiss it out of hand anyways, but I wasn't referring to the Toll Houses anyways, they just happen to be addressed in the article. Heck, I don't even pay attention to them. Ask in TAW if you don't believe me, the response you will get is a shrug and something along the lines of "Toll Houses? Those things are delicious with milk". I posted it to show how the soul does not fall asleep after death, according to the Church Fathers.

I would hope that is not a serious reply.

It is. I'm not one of those posters who is going to pretend to be precious and holy. I'm not posting here out of any consideration for anyone here, but rather for my own satisfaction.

Actually, no, that's not at all what I mean.

In that case, I expect you will not reprove me in the future for answering only so far as I deign to.

I do apologize if my tendency to be blunt in serious discussion comes off harshly. I don't make insinuations, and that's neither my disposition nor meaning. That statement was about the nature of conclusions and nothing else. I inferred that you had already reached your conclusion on the matter, but I imply nothing. "A conclusion is where we tire of thinking" Analyze it, compare it to your method and experience, dismiss it, do what you will, but don't take it as an insult.

Very well, it is just that that sort of subtle knifing is quite common is all.

Well, no, but it does generally mean that, once addressed, the conclusion will take precedence and will not be subject to change.

Odd, I've never really encountered that perspective before.

 

[JediMobius]

What do you call it then the thrief on the cross? Christ says he will be with him... in paradise...Was Christ lying ?

Paradise is not heaven, but a place otherwise called Abraham's Bosom, the sunny side of the grave apparently...

Jesus in Hell
Sign of Jonah 3 days three nights Belly of the Whale

Also, if Jesus was risen from the dead on the third day, chilled on earth for a while, and then went to heaven, what evidence is there Christ went up to heaven, came back down, and went up again? Wouldn't that make his next arrival the third coming of Christ?

 

[JediMobius]

And now you see why I didn't bother wasting my time before, since you just dismiss it out of hand anyways, but I wasn't referring to the Toll Houses anyways, they just happen to be addressed in the article. Heck, I don't even pay attention to them. Ask in TAW if you don't believe me, the response you will get is a shrug and something along the lines of "Toll Houses? Those things are delicious with milk". I posted it to show how the soul does not fall asleep after death, according to the Church Fathers.

It's not dismissing out of hand if I actually provide reason for my disagreement, which I did. Neither was I focusing on the Toll Houses as much as on the supposed struggle souls go through after death. Tell me, if part of it is untrustworthy and doesn't measure up to scripture, why should I put stock in any of the rest of it?

It is. I'm not one of those posters who is going to pretend to be precious and holy. I'm not posting here out of any consideration for anyone here, but rather for my own satisfaction.

Not very Christ-like. Just sayin.

In that case, I expect you will not reprove me in the future for answering only so far as I deign to.

Also not what I mean.

Very well, it is just that that sort of subtle knifing is quite common is all.

Oh, I've noticed how you assume your experience with me will be no different than your experience with others. How am I supposed to get past that barrier and actually have a conversation? Likewise, I'm used to my meaning being entirely misconstrued regardless how carefully I express it. But that's no legitimate reason to expect or assume that will be the case each time.

I mean, I do understand that people on here can be twisty and stealthily nasty... jerks.

Odd, I've never really encountered that perspective before.

Truly? People tend to believe what they believe regardless of evidence to the contrary (once they've made up their mind what to believe) and conform reality to that belief. That's a fairly common assertion I've seen on these forums, in one form or another, and elsewhere...

 

[Zeek]

I'm glad that you finally agree with me that Christians don't die, and that asking the saints for help is not communicating with the dead.

Let me say just for the record LS, I am sure I can agree with you on many things, and I thank G-d for the unity we have through His blood.

On these threads though we have a difference of opinions/understanding that inevitably get thrashed out in our many discussions/arguments...it is the nature of the beast.

I believe we are with the L-rd when we die, but I don't believe we still actively participate in what goes on down on planet Earth...certainly not in the sense that we can communicate with those still in the flesh.

You seem to place great emphasis on us still being alive in the L-rd, and then using this as proof that people can communicate with 'dead in the flesh' Saints....that is a mighty leap of faith that I don't possess and cannot see....and it's not from lack of looking!

Do you think only those that love Jesus are still alive after death...or do you also think that those who have hated Him are also alive?

If the answer is Yes...then who is dead? (help me out it is confusing )

 

[Thekla]

Those who have reposed in Christ are with Christ. The question re the Saints actually becomes: where is Christ ?

 

[Zeek]

Those who have reposed in Christ are with Christ. The question re the Saints actually becomes: where is Christ ?

First ....could you please tell me where the dead without Messiah are at this moment and how they differ in their state from the dead in Messiah?

 

[Thekla]

First ....could you please tell me where the dead without Messiah are at this moment and how they differ in their state from the dead in Messiah?

I don't know.

But,

"But I am hard pressed from both, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for it is much better;
Phillipians 1:23-25

 

[Zeek]

I don't know.

But,

"But I am hard pressed from both, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for it is much better;
Phillipians 1:23-25

I don't have any argument that those that have died are in the presence of the L-rd in some capacity...but I was trying to make the point that by your reckoning there is actually no such thing as death....just a transformation....therefore the unbelievers are alive somewhere, kept for judgment, and the redeemed are with the L-rd.

For our purposes on Earth, the Saints are dead people...we know by faith their spirits are with the L-rd, and that they will eventually be reclothed in transformed bodies...but they do not have interaction with G-ds people on earth now despite teaching that says they do...it just isn't true.

Thekla...let me ask you something. If one was to believe that it was acceptable to communicate with Saints who have left both their earthly abode, and their fleshly bodies...wouldn't this encourage people to try and communicate with friends and relatives that loved G-d and have since died, and open them up to the same sort of dangers prevalent in spiritism, where evil spirits masquerade as the dead through the help of a medium?

 

[Philothei]

On the Veneration of the Holy Relics and Remains of the Saints

Hey Zazal read this and post here your questions Hope that would help

 

[Philothei]

I don't have any argument that those that have died are in the presence of the L-rd in some capacity...but I was trying to make the point that by your reckoning there is actually no such thing as death....just a transformation....therefore the unbelievers are alive somewhere, kept for judgment, and the redeemed are with the L-rd.

No.. The first judgment takes place at death. The ones who are not accepted they do go to a place isolated from God.... All souls will be resurrected to be judged by Christ.


This might help also :

Excerpts from the Prologue From Ochrid: On Death and the Future Life

A vision of St. Andrew the Fool for Christ: St. Paul was not the only one to be caught up into Paradise and hear 'unspeakable words' (II Cor. 12:4). Over eight hundred and fifty years after St. Paul, this happened to St. Andrew. One winter night, holy Andrew was lying among the dogs on a dunghill, to warm his frozen body. An angel appeared to him and caught him up to Paradise (whether in the body or out of the body, Andrew himself was unable to explain) and kept him for two weeks in the heavenly world, bearing him to the third heaven. 'I saw myself clad in shining garments like lightning, with a wreath of flowers on my head and girt with a kingly girdle, and I rejoiced greatly at this beauty, and marveled in mind and heart at the unspeakable loveliness of God's Paradise, and I walked around it with great gladness.'
After that, Andrew writes of how he saw Christ the Lord: 'And when a flaming hand drew aside the curtain, I saw my Lord as the Prophet Isaiah saw Him aforetime, sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up and surrounded by seraphim. He was clad in a red garment, His face shone and His eyes rested on me with great kindness. Seeing Him, I fell down before Him, worshipping before the awesome throne of His glory. I have no words for the joy that gripped me at the sight of His face; and now, remembering this vision, I am filled with unspeakable joy. And I heard my most merciful Creator speak three words to me with His most sweet and pure lips, which so sweetened my heart and inflamed it with love for Him that I melted as wax at such spiritual warmth.' When St. Andrew asked also after this if it would be possible to see the most holy Mother of God, it was said to him that she was for the moment not in heaven, but had gone down to earth to be of help to the poor and needy.

For our purposes on Earth, the Saints are dead people...we know by faith their spirits are with the L-rd, and that they will eventually be reclothed in transformed bodies...but they do not have interaction with G-ds people on earth now despite teaching that says they do...it just isn't true.

How can you be so sure though.... In the west they believe in ghosts... I do not but the spiritual world is "just as alive" as the physical world... There are miracles that testify to this... Saints's shoes been changed for they have worn their soles... even so their class cases are sealed...Are these mysteries? How can a saint do this? How do we have miracles,healings, apparitions etc? All of it is a lie that we all keep going for the sake of keeping our faith in the saints? For 2,000 years now if all this was fake then we would have somehow found out...about it. You can go ahead and believe that it is not hapenning you do not have to believe...But please do not accuse others for believing in them
Death & the Future Life

Thekla...let me ask you something. If one was to believe that it was acceptable to communicate with Saints who have left both their earthly abode, and their fleshly bodies...wouldn't this encourage people to try and communicate with friends and relatives that loved G-d and have since died, and open them up to the same sort of dangers prevalent in spiritism, where evil spirits masquerade as the dead through the help of a medium?

Nope. EO does not believe in "sianz"(spelling?)... Like I said the spritual world is not a "channel" for ghost hanting... Nothing to do with this sort of pagan practices that are left to the secular world. Actually the official church anathematizes the ones who practice these practices. Relatives are NOT considered saints and never approached like that... The "sainthood" is granted to the ones (who are with the Lord) and they have exhibited saintly living life that has to do with miracles that took place while living that continued after their death. The last "lay saint" i remember (living in Athens) was a doctor who was characterized for his charity and spiritual demeanor. After now 40 years I think the synod has decided to call him "osios" (not exactly saint but close to it) Our most recent canonized Saint in Greece is St. Nectarios of Aegina. He is associated for his humility of his character and his miracles while he was alive that have continued after his physical death.
Saint Nektarios

Actually I know his nephew in real life and I reassure you that they do not feel that they can communicate with him exclusevely that would be a blasphemy to God indeed. My father personally had a miracle taking place (was a stubborn agnostic until his late 60's ) and came to believe because of seeing the Virgin Mary in his sleep. To make a long story short Theotokos told him that his surgery will be ok. And she told him her name (in greece we have local names for Theotokos according to the name of the places she has appeared to people) and that in all honesty my dad never heard before...He was not a strong believer more a doubter... Well we found out there exists such place and such icon that dipicts the Theotokos. But the further proof that he saw her was that upon visitation of the actual icon my dad said... "no this is not her icon this is NOT who I saw" and when he asked they told him that the actual icon was removed from the monastery for it was taken to another village for veneration.... :o That was indeed the point...that he saw her the way she was dipicted in the icon...The next day when he saw the 'real icon' he started to cry...as that was the image of Theotokos he saw in his sleep.

Guideposts and terstimonies that are soooo close to us cannot be "manufactured" ... Christ indeed is "wondreous in His saints"

YouTube - Orthodox Christianity: GOD IS GLORIOUS IN HIS SAINTS: PART I

The saints are with the Lord...we either beleive it or not ....I think the fact that Adam and Eve are pulled up ... from their graves...shows where they are ...At least shows the intent of Christ....

YouTube - Orthodox Christianity: GOD IS GLORIOUS IN HIS SAINTS: PART TWO


YouTube - Orthodox Christianity: GOD IS GLORIOUS IN HIS SAINTS: PART THREE


Archbishop Lazar ^ I thought it is truly worth listening to^ Since he says that the Holy Spirit is the communicant of the Glorified saints and the ones who live on earth(us) There it goes the question you had about how we communicate... Not the same as "ghost" like communication...
1Cor. 5.4 it proves that Paul beleives we communicate to him in the Spirit