Sacerdotalism

[LiturgyInDMinor]

I was hoping for more Chuck Norris jokes.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I was hoping for more Chuck Norris jokes.

God said "Let there be light.", Chuck Norris said "Ok."

Did you know that Chuck Norris keeps a night light on at night? Not that Chuck Norris is afraid of the dark, but rather the dark is afraid of Chuck Norris.

Jesus can walk on water, but Chuck Norris can swim on land.

God created the universe, Chuck Norris created God.

 

[LiturgyInDMinor]

Nice!

 

[SpiritualAntiseptic]

It is a man made barrier between God and man that was made by certain men to give a certain institution power over men.

I guess it is true that the apostles were men.

 

[simonthezealot]

the sacraments are acts of Christ by and through His Body of believers, so yes, other people are necessary -- we are a body, if you want to call that a barrier then so be it.

Sacraments are the means in which your churches deliver grace, right?
So God's grace is insulated by your churches, yes?
Because as you seem to be indicating you are unable to access the means of God's graces which are delivered through those sacraments without a sacerdos/priest

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

There is not barrier; the rending of the curtain in the Temple attests to that!

Praise God!

 

[Kristos]

Sacraments are the means in which your churches deliver grace, right?
So God's grace is insulated by your churches, yes?
Because as you seem to be indicating you are unable to access the means of God's graces which are delivered through those sacraments without a sacerdos/priest

Actually it's the bishop that is required. The priest acting in the place of the bishop developed as the church grew and the bishops couldn't be everywhere at once. This is not a separation from God, but rather is ordained by God as His means of giving order. The NT clearly illustrates this throughout. Christ had an inner circle of 12. He ordained those 12 with special power and authority. The Last Supper was not a free for all, with everyone invited - it was with the 12. Christ presided over the meal, a meal of love, just as the bishop now presides over the Eucharist - not a barrier but in remembrance and emulation of the Last Supper as specifically directed by Christ. Heaven is not full of chaos. As we ascend during the Divine Liturgy we cannot be in chaos either and therefor follow the example of Christ. Shall we also claim that the seraphim are a barrier to God? The angles created as ministering spirits? This is complete rubbish. Did the seraphim forgive his sin? With an attitude like this, what will be your reaction when the seraphim bring the coal to your mouth? Will you brazenly refuse it and demand an audience with the almighty so that you can explain to Him how His ministers are no longer needed??? Think about it...

Isa 6:1 In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple.
Isa 6:2 Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly.
Isa 6:3 And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.
Isa 6:4 And the posts of the door moved at the voice of him that cried, and the house was filled with smoke.
Isa 6:5 Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts.
Isa 6:6 Then flew one of the seraphims unto me, having a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with the tongs from off the altar:
Isa 6:7 And he laid it upon my mouth, and said, Lo, this hath touched thy lips; and thine iniquity is taken away, and thy sin purged.

 

[LiturgyInDMinor]

Actually it's the bishop that is required. The priest acting in the place of the bishop developed as the church grew and the bishops couldn't be everywhere at once. This is not a separation from God, but rather is ordained by God as His means of giving order. The NT clearly illustrates this throughout. Christ had an inner circle of 12. He ordained those 12 with special power and authority. The Last Supper was not a free for all, with everyone invited - it was with the 12. Christ presided over the meal, a meal of love, just as the bishop now presides over the Eucharist - not a barrier but in remembrance and emulation of the Last Supper as specifically directed by Christ. Heaven is not full of chaos. As we ascend during the Divine Liturgy we cannot be in chaos either and therefor follow the example of Christ. Shall we also claim that the seraphim are a barrier to God? The angles created as ministering spirits? This is complete rubbish. Did the seraphim forgive his sin? With an attitude like this, what will be your reaction when the seraphim bring the coal to your mouth? Will you brazenly refuse it and demand an audience with the almighty so that you can explain to Him how His ministers are no longer needed??? Think about it...

Isa 6:1 In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple.
Isa 6:2 Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly.
Isa 6:3 And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.
Isa 6:4 And the posts of the door moved at the voice of him that cried, and the house was filled with smoke.
Isa 6:5 Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts.
Isa 6:6 Then flew one of the seraphims unto me, having a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with the tongs from off the altar:
Isa 6:7 And he laid it upon my mouth, and said, Lo, this hath touched thy lips; and thine iniquity is taken away, and thy sin purged.

 

[simonthezealot]

Actually it's the bishop that is required.

Where so is it shown that a bishop is REQUIRED?


Also, where does scripture show the teaching that grace is administered through the one so ordained?

 

[simonthezealot]

Why were they ordained in the first place?

Why would Christ's Apostles set up a structured Church with Bishops, Presbyters, and Deacons?

I'm asking some very specific questions that require understanding the difference between a sacerdos and a presbyter if you fail to understand the difference i would appreciate not sidetracking the questions i posed to kristos.
Thanks in advance.

Edited to add:
The NT prevented the name sacerdos (priest or cleric) from being given even to an apostle or to various other offices in relation to church leadership, the Bible teaches the universal priesthood of all believers.

Sacredos comes from 2 meanings ~make sacred and give~,

 

[Standing Up]

Why were they ordained in the first place?

Why would Christ's Apostles set up a structured Church with Bishops, Presbyters, and Deacons?

To me this is the biggest problem with Evangelical Churchs, it's out of control.

1. Pick up Bible
2. Create your own interpretation,
3. Call yourself "Pastor"
4. Create some Capital
5. Create a new Denomination.

It's like the wild west .

Sure it is, except you aren't aware that's what happened about 1800 years ago as the church departed from what was handed down. Jesus didn't establish the concept of 3 separate offices of bishop, priest, deacon, but rather elder and deacon. The tri-fold designation began with Ignatius so-called.

As well, the idea of separate and redefined bishop and priest classes arose as the concept of eucharist as sacrifice entered the church.

 

[Kristos]

Where so is it shown that a bishop is REQUIRED?


Also, where does scripture show the teaching that grace is administered through the one so ordained?

Where is it not?

The last supper, the feeding, the great commission, Paul's assertion of his apostleship, etc etc etc...

Most specifically, the grace, that is the love of God is clearly administered through the Eucharist:
Joh 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
Yes - this is the love that is manifested in the sacrement of the gathering, the culmination of which is union with God, He who is divided yet remains whole, He who is consumed yet is never consumed, He who is fully present yet never in heaven. This is the love that Christ showed the apostles at the Last Supper and commanded them to go and show this love to each other. This is the new covenant - love; the love Christ exhibited in the gather of His flock together in His name, we become the Body of Christ and we consume the Body of Christ, He is the head of the Body - the priest or bishop fulfills role of He who is Ascended into heaven, who's body is glorified, he is the tongs that delivers the coal to our lips that wipes away our transgressions. This is the scripture, this is the truth - there is no way around it.

 

[Trento]

Sure it is, except you aren't aware that's what happened about 1800 years ago as the church departed from what was handed down. Jesus didn't establish the concept of 3 separate offices of bishop, priest, deacon, but rather elder and deacon. The tri-fold designation began with Ignatius so-called.

As well, the idea of separate and redefined bishop and priest classes arose as the concept of eucharist as sacrifice entered the church.

This is false.
St .Ignatius born in Syria, around the year 50; died at Rome 110 Ad. received his episcopal consecration at the hands of the Apostles themselves constitutes one of the most important links between the Apostles and the Fathers of the early Church. Receiving from the Apostles themselves, whose auditor he was, not only the substance of revelation, but also their own inspired interpretation of it; dwelling, as it were, at the very fountain-head of Gospel truth.

"See that ye all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as ye would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is[administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful without the bishop either to baptize or to celebrate a love-feast; but whatsoever he shall approve of, that is also pleasing to God, so that everything that is done may be secure and valid."
Ignatius of Antioch,Epistle to the Smyraens,8 (c.A.D. 110),in ANF,I:89-90.


Protestant early Church historian J. N. D. Kelly writes that in the early Church "the Eucharist was regarded as the distinctively Christian sacrifice. . . . Malachi’s prediction (1:10–11) that the Lord would reject Jewish sacrifices and instead would have "a pure offering" made to him by the Gentiles in every place was seized upon by Christians as a prophecy of the Eucharist. The Didache 70 AD indeed actually applies the term thusia, or sacrifice, to the Eucharist. . . .


The Didache Teaching of the Apostles


"Assemble on the Lord’s day, and break bread and offer the Eucharist; but first make confession of your faults, so that your sacrifice may be a pure one. Anyone who has a difference with his fellow is not to take part with you until he has been reconciled, so as to avoid any profanation of your sacrifice [Matt. 5:23–24]. For this is the offering of which the Lord has said, ‘Everywhere and always bring me a sacrifice that is undefiled, for I am a great king, says the Lord, and my name is the wonder of nations’ [Mal. 1:11, 14]" (Didache 14 [A.D. 70]

 

[MamaZ]

Where is it not?

The last supper, the feeding, the great commission, Paul's assertion of his apostleship, etc etc etc...

Most specifically, the grace, that is the love of God is clearly administered through the Eucharist:
Joh 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
Yes - this is the love that is manifested in the sacrement of the gathering, the culmination of which is union with God, He who is divided yet remains whole, He who is consumed yet is never consumed, He who is fully present yet never in heaven. This is the love that Christ showed the apostles at the Last Supper and commanded them to go and show this love to each other. This is the new covenant - love; the love Christ exhibited in the gather of His flock together in His name, we become the Body of Christ and we consume the Body of Christ, He is the head of the Body - the priest or bishop fulfills role of He who is Ascended into heaven, who's body is glorified, he is the tongs that delivers the coal to our lips that wipes away our transgressions. This is the scripture, this is the truth - there is no way around it.

Jesus Role is still active in Him and not in a man. It is His blood shed that wiped away our sins. This is why He ever lives to intercede for us..

 

[Standing Up]

This is false.
-snip-
The Didache Teaching of the Apostles


"Assemble on the Lord’s day, and break bread and offer the Eucharist; but first make confession of your faults, so that your sacrifice may be a pure one. Anyone who has a difference with his fellow is not to take part with you until he has been reconciled, so as to avoid any profanation of your sacrifice [Matt. 5:23–24]. For this is the offering of which the Lord has said, ‘Everywhere and always bring me a sacrifice that is undefiled, for I am a great king, says the Lord, and my name is the wonder of nations’ [Mal. 1:11, 14]" (Didache 14 [A.D. 70]

What version is that?

But every Lord's day gather yourselves together, and break bread, and give thanksgiving (offer the eucharist because eucharist is thanksgiving) after having confessed your transgressions, that your sacrifice may be pure. But let no one who is at odds with his fellow come together with you, until they be reconciled, that your sacrifice may not be profaned. For this is that which was spoken by the Lord: "In every place and time offer to me a pure sacrifice; for I am a great King, says the Lord, and my name is wonderful among the nations."

What sacrifice? Your thanksgiving, your eucharist that you present. Not the priest's, but yours. Heb. 13:15 By him (Jesus) therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of [our] lips giving thanks to his name.

In addition, in the next paragraph, the didache, following scripture, recognizes only elders (bishops) and deacons. Nothing about a priest. So it's impossible to be referencing the later idea of a priest and resacrifice.

 

[Standing Up]

This is false.
St .Ignatius born in Syria, around the year 50; died at Rome 110 Ad. received his episcopal consecration at the hands of the Apostles themselves constitutes one of the most important links between the Apostles and the Fathers of the early Church. Receiving from the Apostles themselves, whose auditor he was, not only the substance of revelation, but also their own inspired interpretation of it; dwelling, as it were, at the very fountain-head of Gospel truth.

"See that ye all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as ye would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is[administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful without the bishop either to baptize or to celebrate a love-feast; but whatsoever he shall approve of, that is also pleasing to God, so that everything that is done may be secure and valid."
Ignatius of Antioch,Epistle to the Smyraens,8 (c.A.D. 110),in ANF,I:89-90.

Yes and the didache that you quote recognizes only bishop and deacon. Two offices versus three. Which one is false in your opinion?

Many believe that the letters of Ignatius are spurious interpolations written later and attached to his name. They cannot be used to establish doctrine.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Yes and the didache that you quote recognizes only bishop and deacon. Two offices versus three. Which one is false in your opinion?

Many believe that the letters of Ignatius are spurious interpolations written later and attached to his name. They cannot be used to establish doctrine.

What is the third one?

 

[simonthezealot]

In addition, in the next paragraph, the didache, following scripture, recognizes only elders (bishops) and deacons. Nothing about a priest. So it's impossible to be referencing the later idea of a priest and resacrifice.

Yes here it is and we can see no special sacred giving "in the person of Jesus" mentioned in the job descript...
Chapter 15. Bishops and Deacons; Christian Reproof. Appoint, therefore, for yourselves, bishops and deacons worthy of the Lord, men meek, and not lovers of money, and truthful and proved; for they also render to you the service of prophets and teachers. Therefore do not despise them, for they are your honored ones, together with the prophets and teachers. And reprove one another, not in anger, but in peace, as you have it in the Gospel. But to anyone that acts amiss against another, let no one speak, nor let him hear anything from you until he repents. But your prayers and alms and all your deeds so do, as you have it in the Gospel of our Lord.

SIDENOTE: Also, i like how it is the lay who appoint the bishop,yet the Council of Trent condemns those who say that church leaders can be appointed by laymen:

"Furthermore, the sacred and holy Synod teaches, that, in the ordination of bishops, priests, and of the other orders, neither the consent, nor vocation, nor authority, whether of the people, or of any civil power or magistrate whatsoever, is required in such wise as that, without this, the ordination is invalid: yea rather doth It decree, that all those who, being only called and instituted by the people, or by the civil power and magistrate, ascend to the exercise of these ministrations, and those who of their own rashness assume them to themselves, are not ministers of the church, but are to be looked upon as thieves and robbers, who have not entered by the door."

(session 23, chapter 4, "On the Ecclesiastical Hierarchy, and on Ordination")

 

[Standing Up]

What is the third one?

The NT defines only the elder and deacon. The elder is interchangeable with bishop.

Vines-on elder,
(3) in the Christian churches, those who, being raised up and qualified by the work of the Holy Spirit, were appointed to have the spiritual care of, and to exercise oversight over, the churches. To these the term "bishops," episkopoi, or "overseers," is applied (see Acts 20, ver. 17 with ver. 28, and Tts 1:5, 7), the latter term indicating the nature of their work, presbuteroi their maturity of spirtual experience. The Divine arrangement seen throughout the NT was for a plurality of these to be appointed in each church, Act 14:23; 20:17; Phl 1:1; 1Ti 5:17; Tts 1:5. The duty of "elders" is described by the verb episkopeo. They were appointed according as they had given evidence of fulfilling the Divine qualifications, Tts 1:6-9; cp. 1Ti 3:1-7; 1Pe 5:2;

Nowhere is the concept of a priest found in the NT, except the notion that all believers are of the Melchizedek priesthood. No clergy/laity division. To be clear, however, there is elder, weaned, baby concept (1 John and elsewhere). But we are all to grow into Christ, to be One.

The earliest example of the Didache mentions only bishop and deacon (chapter 15).

Later, however, Ignatious so-called differentiates bishop and presbyter, the latter which then gets translated as priest. And so, it becomes bishop, priest, and deacon.

This division from 2 to 3 arises along with the changing notion of eucharist is thanksgiving to eucharist is thanksgiving and sacrifice. Sacrifice requires a priest. But there is no NT separate priest like in pagan and OT religions. So, they had to "invent" the idea, redefine the words, and make it palatable.

 

[Standing Up]

Yes here it is and we can see no special sacred giving "in the person of Jesus" mentioned in the job descript...
Chapter 15. Bishops and Deacons; Christian Reproof. Appoint, therefore, for yourselves, bishops and deacons worthy of the Lord, men meek, and not lovers of money, and truthful and proved; for they also render to you the service of prophets and teachers. Therefore do not despise them, for they are your honored ones, together with the prophets and teachers. And reprove one another, not in anger, but in peace, as you have it in the Gospel. But to anyone that acts amiss against another, let no one speak, nor let him hear anything from you until he repents. But your prayers and alms and all your deeds so do, as you have it in the Gospel of our Lord.

Yes, and here is the Didache itself telling us exactly what we are saying---

9:1 But concerning the Eucharist, after this fashion give ye thanks.
9:2 First, concerning the cup. We thank thee, our Father, for the holy vine, David thy Son, which thou hast made known unto us through Jesus Christ thy Son; to thee be the glory for ever.
9:3 And concerning the broken bread. We thank thee, our Father, for the life and knowledge which thou hast made known unto us through Jesus thy Son; to thee be the glory for ever.
9:4 As this broken bread was once scattered on the mountains, and after it had been brought together became one, so may thy Church be gathered together from the ends of the earth unto thy kingdom; for thine is the glory, and the power, through Jesus Christ, for ever.
9:5 And let none eat or drink of your Eucharist but such as have been baptized into the name of the Lord, for of a truth the Lord hath said concerning this, Give not that which is holy unto dogs.

And so,

14:1 But on the Lord's day, after that ye have assembled together, break bread and give thanks, having in addition confessed your sins, that your sacrifice may be pure.

1 Jn. 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

14:2 But let not any one who hath a quarrel with his companion join with you, until they be reconciled, that your sacrifice may not be polluted,
14:3 for it is that which is spoken of by the Lord. In every place and time offer unto me a pure sacrifice, for I am a great King, saith the Lord, and my name is wonderful among the Gentiles.

The broken bread is scattered on the mountains, but regather that we become one.