Sacerdotalism

[Eucharisted]

Is it a human barrier between God and man?
Or is it a necessity as it was in the OT.

Our Lord Jesus Christ, the Eternal High Priest and only Mediator between God and man, is not a barrier between God and man. Priests do not act in their own persons but act in the Divine Person of Jesus Christ, who offers Himself to the Eternal Father in the One Holy Sacrifice on the Holy Cross.

 

[Christos Anesti]

So the priest stands as a barrier or insulation between you and the body and blood of Christ as per Orthodox teaching.

I'm not a priest but I'm not a prophet either. If I received a word from God through a prophet would that person also be improperly standing between me and God*? I don't have the gift of healing either. If a person laid hands on me and God healed me through them would they be improperly standing between me and God? My answer would be "no" to all of the above.

* For that matter what if I received a message from God through the Biblical Prophets in the Scripture (form the book of Ezekiel for example) ? Would those people be improperly standing in between me and God?

I don't believe God wants us to be self sufficient. That leads to pride. Thats one of the reasons I believe He gives different gifts to different people.

 

[simonthezealot]

Priests do not act in their own persons but act in the Divine Person of Jesus Christ

What do you mean by act in the divine person of?

 

[simonthezealot]

why do you use the word barrier when inquiring what they believe? that is a conclusion you have made upon yourself that you ATTEMPT to interject into their definition or beliefs.

I was not interjecting it into their teaching i could have worded it better i was clarifying their view of what the eucharist was when i said this...
the body and blood of Christ as per Orthodox teaching

 

[Christos Anesti]

It is worthy of notice that a number of the most eminent church teachers of this period, Hermas, Justin Martyr, Athenagoras, Clement of Alexandria, Origen, Tertullian, Arnobius, and Lactantius, were either laymen, or at most only presbyters.

Many of the greatest saints have not held a priestly office. In fact all of the women saints (some of whom are held to be "equal to the Apostles") did not have a priestly office. I'm not sure how that would be an argument against the importance of the priesthood though?

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

Edit.

 

[simonthezealot]

Must the divine blessing of the Eucharist come from a priest? the answer is yes according to both your churches teachings,right?
So how can you guys not see this as a barrier or insulation between yourselves and God.

Where do you see this in the New Testament?

 

[MrPolo]

Why are we following men anyway? Get rid of Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, and Isaiah, Jeremiah, etc!!!! Let's just go straight to God! No more middle men insulating us from God!!!!!!!!

 

[simonthezealot]

.

 

[simonthezealot]

Why are we following men anyway? Get rid of Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, and Isaiah, Jeremiah, etc!!!! Let's just go straight to God! No more middle men insulating us from God!!!!!!!!

rabbit trailing?
I always expect more from you Mr. Polo

 

[Christos Anesti]

Must the divine blessing of the Eucharist come from a priest?

God acting through a priest (or bishop) and the congregation. A priest can not celebrate the Eucharist by himself. Without the "amen" of the congregation there is no Eucharist. Without a priest or bishop there can not be a Eucharist either though of course.

So how can you guys not see this as a barrier or insulation between yourselves and God.

The Bible notes that not everyone has the same gifts. I'm happy with this and don't consider it an unfair barrier between me and God.

Again I would point to the office of prophet. Can there be a prophecy without a prophet? If you do not have the gift of prophecy is that a barrier or insulation between you and God that you have to rely instead on a prophet to obtain prophecies?

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

Edit.

 

[Standing Up]

God acting through a priest (or bishop) and the congregation. A priest can not celebrate the Eucharist by himself. Without the "amen" of the congregation there is no Eucharist. Without a priest or bishop there can not be a Eucharist either though of course.



The Bible notes that not everyone has the same gifts. I'm happy with this and don't consider it an unfair barrier between me and God.

Again I would point to the office of prophet. Can there be a prophecy without a prophet? If you do not have the gift of prophecy is that a barrier or insulation between you and God that you have to rely instead on a prophet to obtain prophecies?

I'd say the difference is qualitatively different between a prophet and a priest; just look at the OT for examples. The people could not go into the holy place, let alone the holy of holies. The priest was a necessary "barrier". No one could approach God without sacrifice.

The question is whether that same "activity" is necessary today (given that we believe in the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ). IOW, if someone (a born-again believer) never partakes of the so-called sacrificial-Eucharist, how would one enter into God's presence? Or more pointedly, can one still do so? You mentioned Cor--if you fail to "recognize" the bread-as-body-as-sacrifice, you've consumed damnation. If one can, then what is the point of a NT "priest"?

 

[simonthezealot]

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[Christos Anesti]

today. IOW, if someone never partakes of the so-called sacrificial-Eucharist, how would one enter into God's presence?

The thief on the cross was never able to participate in the Liturgy while on earth but he made it to paradise. The Liturgy and the Eucharist are great graces from God but I don't think anyone could conclusively say "if you never been to it you are going to hell". We can enter the presence of God through prayer and through love toward God and our fellow man. The Eucharist is certainly of supreme importance but it isn't the only manner of approaching Christ. Thankfully the Eucharist is celebrated throughout most of the world and I have no problems finding a Church that has it. Christ Himself instituted so why wouldn't I partcipate in it?

 

[simonthezealot]

What do you mean by act in the divine person of?

?

 

[Standing Up]

The thief on the cross was never able to participate in the Liturgy while on earth but he made it to paradise. The Liturgy and the Eucharist are great graces from God but I don't think anyone could conclusively say "if you never been to it you are going to hell". We can enter the presence of God through prayer and through love toward God and our fellow man. The Eucharist is certainly of supreme importance but it isn't the only manner of approaching Christ. Thankfully the Eucharist is celebrated throughout most of the world and I have no problems finding a Church that has it. Christ Himself instituted so why wouldn't I partcipate in it?

But does it require a priest? IOW, you and I may do exactly the same thing, give thanks, remembering what Christ has done.

 

[Standing Up]

Also from the earlier citation---

The idea and institution of a special priesthood, distinct from the body of the people, with the accompanying notion of sacrifice and altar, passed imperceptibly from Jewish and heathen reminiscences and analogies into the Christian church. The majority of Jewish converts adhered tenaciously to the Mosaic institutions and rites, and a considerable part never fully attained to the height of spiritual freedom proclaimed by Paul, or soon fell away from it. He opposed legalistic and ceremonial tendencies in Galatia and Corinth; and although sacerdotalism does not appear among the errors of his Judaizing opponents, the Levitical priesthood, with its three ranks of high-priest, priest, and Levite, naturally furnished an analogy for the threefold ministry of bishop, priest, and deacon, and came to be regarded as typical of it. Still less could the Gentile Christians, as a body, at once emancipate themselves from their traditional notions of priesthood, altar, and sacrifice, on which their former religion was based. Whether we regard the change as an apostasy from a higher position attained, or as a reaction of old ideas never fully abandoned, the change is undeniable, and can be traced to the second century. The church could not long occupy the ideal height of the apostolic age, and as the Pentecostal illumination passed away with the death of the apostles, the old reminiscences began to reassert themselves.

 

[Kristos]

The Father ~ Christ~Man
5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

Sacerdotalism necessitates a priest
The Father ~ Christ~Priest~Man
But, the veil has been torn.

19 Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus, 20 by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, his body

We the elect are the priests.
5 you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.

4 Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.

And Jesus the High Priest
24 but because Jesus lives forever, he has a permanent priesthood. 25 Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them.

Sacerdotalism in my view insulates people from God, where the New Testament places none.

Like tongs insulate us from a burning coal?

 

[Standing Up]

Like tongs insulate us from a burning coal?

Rom. 12:20
"BUT IF YOUR ENEMY IS HUNGRY, FEED HIM, AND IF HE IS THIRSTY, GIVE HIM A DRINK; FOR IN SO DOING YOU WILL HEAP BURNING COALS ON HIS HEAD."