Sacerdotalism

[LittleLambofJesus]

According to the Church your Church broke away from, neither is yours

[URL="http://www.christianforums.com/t7381842/#post52251942"]http://www.christianforums.com/t7381842/#post52251942[/URL]

Or was it the other way round

 

[simonthezealot]

The liturgical offering is offered by ALL and for ALL.

Then why the need for a priest again?>

 

[Standing Up]

Then why the need for a priest again?>

Maybe this time we'll get an anwer.

Where's the smiley holding its breath?

 

[Standing Up]

Why the need for a Pastor then?

are your churches led by random laymen, that switches out week to week? Are there any requirements to being a Pastor in your Church or can anybody be one on the fly?

You must not be Roman Catholic or Eastern Orthodox, yet neither a Protestant. What is your denomination again?

I'm not aware of any RC or EO or P who identifies a Pastor as a Priest or vice-versa. None would any even remotely confuse them.

So, what's your question again libbo?

 

[simonthezealot]

You must not be Roman Catholic or Eastern Orthodox, yet neither a Protestant. What is your denomination again?

I'm not aware of any RC or EO or P who identifies a Pastor as a Priest or vice-versa. None would any even remotely confuse them.

So, what's your question again libbo?

Libbo is a methodist and catholic.
A Metholic if you will.

 

[Standing Up]

Libbo is a methodist and catholic.
A Metholic if you will.

I've heard of Bapticostals, but not Metholics (just doesn't sound good).

 

[simonthezealot]

I've heard of Bapticostals, but not Metholics (just doesn't sound good).

It does sound better than a Cathodist..

 

[Dorothea]

Then why the need for a priest again?>

Because Christ taught this through His Apostles. The Apostles were the ones who baptized people, administered communion, etc. They passed this on to the bishops they appointed to the various churches they found. So, it's simply following one of Christ's teachings.

 

[simonthezealot]

Because Christ taught this through His Apostles. The Apostles were the ones who baptized people, administered communion, etc. They passed this on to the bishops they appointed to the various churches they found. So, it's simply following one of Christ's teachings.

So can the sacred transmission of grace that sacramentalist believe happens in the host happen without a priest or not?

 

[Secundulus]

So can the sacred transmission of grace that sacramentalist believe happens in the host happen without a priest or not?

It depends on which sacrament you are talking about. Baptism and marriage do not require a priest. Additionally, God can give grace to whoever he wants whenever he wants with or without a priest. Grace is not limited only to sacraments that a priest conducts.

Specifically referring to the Eucharist, without a Priest there is no sacrament.

 

[Standing Up]

It depends on which sacrament you are talking about. Baptism and marriage do not require a priest. Additionally, God can give grace to whoever he wants whenever he wants with or without a priest. Grace is not limited only to sacraments that a priest conducts.

Specifically referring to the Eucharist, without a Priest there is no sacrament.

Don't forget that it must be placed on the tongue, not the hand. Right?

 

[Secundulus]

Don't forget that it must be placed on the tongue, not the hand. Right?

That is adiphora, although I do take it kneeling on the tongue out of respect for what it is.

 

[Rick Otto]

Sublingual is clinicaly proven to be more effective at delivery into the bloodstream.

I'm fundamentaly undenominational.
You might say I'm an UndeFundy

 

[Standing Up]

not confusing the two, you ask along with simon the need for a Priest and I ask since you are obviously not part of an Apostolic Church so I'm pretty postive you HAVE to call your leader a Pastor.

And you have never heard of a Catholic refer to their Priest as Pastor? I have.

If you wonder why EO's and RCC's have the need for a Priest, I'm simply asking why do you have a Pastor? Or are you part of a Church that doesn't not have one? Maybe you have a different laymean each week that comes up and preaches?

pretty simple question

So the laity in RC and EO may conduct the DL/Mass?

Maybe this will help show the difference---

The ordained priesthood and common priesthood (or priesthood of the all the baptized) are different in function and essence.[2]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priesthood_(Catholic_Church)

So, may the "common priesthood" "do" Mass? If not, why not?

 

[Standing Up]

And this might help---

As regards theperson offering, it is not permitted that any and every individual should offer sacrifice on his own account. In the revealedreligion, as in nearly all heathenreligions, only a qualified person (usually calledpriest, sacerdos, lereus), who has been given the power by commission or vocation, may offer up sacrifice in the name of the community.
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Sacrifice of the Mass

 

[Standing Up]

And this helps explain things---

It is true that every Christian receives sanctifying grace which confers on him a priesthood. Even as Israel under the Old dispensation was to God "a priestly kingdom" (Exodus 19:4-6), thus under the New, all Christians are "a kingly priesthood" (1 Peter 2:9); but now as then the special and sacramental priesthood strengthens and perfects the universal priesthood (cf. 2 Corinthians 3:3, 6; Romans 15:16).
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Holy Orders

Here's the rest of the story---

Exodus 19:5-6 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth [is] mine: And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These [are] the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

And what happened?

Pentecost on Mt. Sinai. Sunday morning God spoke/wrote the 10 commandments.

And the people's reaction?

Ex. 20:18 And all the people saw the thunderings, and the lightnings, and the noise of the trumpet, and the mountain smoking: and when the people saw [it], they removed, and stood afar off.
v19 And they said unto Moses, Speak thou with us, and we will hear: but let not God speak with us, lest we die.

They couldn't bear it. So, they said to Moses, be our mediator. Then what happened?

Ex. 28:1 And take thou unto thee Aaron thy brother, and his sons with him, from among the children of Israel, that he may minister unto me in the priest's office, [even] Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, Eleazar and Ithamar, Aaron's sons.

God makes one tribe the priests who act for them. From a nation of priests to a tribe of priests.

Today, however, if we hear His voice, we have come to Mt. Zion.

Heb. 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Because Christ taught this through His Apostles. The Apostles were the ones who baptized people, administered communion, etc. They passed this on to the bishops they appointed to the various churches they found. So, it's simply following one of Christ's teachings.

With regard to the Eucharist; the Church has always held that it should be only administered by one who is properly "Divinely called" and ordained so that it can be properly administered and orderly maintained within the Church. However, from Scripture, we can only conclude what our Lutheran Confessions state: "Word and Sacrament remain efficacious even when administered by evil men". Hence where there is bread, wine, and the Verba; there is a valid Eucharist. Should it be done by a lay person? No!

Liturgical Churches hold the doctrine of "in persona Christi", so when a Pastor administers the Sacraments, it is Christ who is administering the Sacraments through the Pastor who does it by Christ's command, in His stead, by and through His grace. Christ gave these sacraments to the Church. They are administered by Christ; through the Church; which appoints and ordains Clergy to act on Christ's behalf.

Likewise with private confession and absolution. Clergy take a vow to maintain the "seal" of the confessional. They are held to a higher standard than lay people. The forgivness we recieve is not from the Pastor; but from Christ Himself.

Also with baptism, ordained clergy should do it, however in cases of emergency any one can baptize (yes even a non Christian) providing they use water and baptize in the Name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. Emergency baptisms done it this way are recognized by Lutherans, Roman Catholics, Anglicans, and the Eastern Orthodox Churches.

BTW, in our Mass, we all kneel, most receive the Host on the tongue (however those who wish may receive it in the hand), and the precious blood from the common cup. Again, from Christ's hand to our mouth.

 

[simonthezealot]

So, may the "common priesthood" "do" Mass? If not, why not?

We keep showing that they in fact have a "sacred" <barrier> between themselves and the Lord yet they keep denying it, though they can't get past this point.

 

[simonthezealot]

UndeFundy

Shhh... a name like that might catch on...

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

So the laity in RC and EO may conduct the DL/Mass?

No not in the Lutheran Church either.


So, may the "common priesthood" "do" Mass? If not, why not?

Yet again, no! See below, and see the addendum...

With regard to the Eucharist; the Church has always held that it should be only administered by one who is properly "Divinely called" and ordained so that it can be properly administered and orderly maintained within the Church. However, from Scripture, we can only conclude what our Lutheran Confessions state: "Word and Sacrament remain efficacious even when administered by evil men". Hence where there is bread, wine, and the Verba; there is a valid Eucharist. Should it be done by a lay person? No!

Liturgical Churches hold the doctrine of "in persona Christi", so when a Pastor administers the Sacraments, it is Christ who is administering the Sacraments through the Pastor who does it by Christ's command, in His stead, by and through His grace. Christ gave these sacraments to the Church. They are administered by Christ; through the Church; which appoints and ordains Clergy to act on Christ's behalf.

Likewise with private confession and absolution. Clergy take a vow to maintain the "seal" of the confessional. They are held to a higher standard than lay people. The forgivness we recieve is not from the Pastor; but from Christ Himself.

Also with baptism, ordained clergy should do it, however in cases of emergency any one can baptize (yes even a non Christian) providing they use water and baptize in the Name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. Emergency baptisms done it this way are recognized by Lutherans, Roman Catholics, Anglicans, and the Eastern Orthodox Churches.

BTW, in our Mass, we all kneel, most receive the Host on the tongue (however those who wish may receive it in the hand), and the precious blood from the common cup. Again, from Christ's hand to our mouth.

Addendum: Christ gave His Divine power to "loose and bind" to His Church. The Church exercises this power not only in regard to sin, but also in establishing it's structure and governance. Since the Church, through this divine, Christ given ordinance, ordains men to administer both word and sacrament within His Church, then only those men should do it! While the sacrament may indeed be valid if administered by a layman; the Church has said no; so the answer is no. What is "bound" on earth, is "bound in Heaven".