Sacerdotalism

[Dorothea]

I echo that. Spot on, Kristos.

 

[Dorothea]

Where is it not?

The last supper, the feeding, the great commission, Paul's assertion of his apostleship, etc etc etc...

Most specifically, the grace, that is the love of God is clearly administered through the Eucharist:
Joh 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
Yes - this is the love that is manifested in the sacrement of the gathering, the culmination of which is union with God, He who is divided yet remains whole, He who is consumed yet is never consumed, He who is fully present yet never in heaven. This is the love that Christ showed the apostles at the Last Supper and commanded them to go and show this love to each other. This is the new covenant - love; the love Christ exhibited in the gather of His flock together in His name, we become the Body of Christ and we consume the Body of Christ, He is the head of the Body - the priest or bishop fulfills role of He who is Ascended into heaven, who's body is glorified, he is the tongs that delivers the coal to our lips that wipes away our transgressions. This is the scripture, this is the truth - there is no way around it.

 

[laconicstudent]

This book is His words. This is why we are to live on His word. Praying is intimate between you and God.. We are told in scripture to preach the word in season and out of season. For we feed on Gods word.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him: and without him was made nothing that was made. In him was life, and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it. --John 1:1-5


This,

Is not the Word.



This,

Is the Word.



Glad we cleared that up. The first image, by the way, is of Scripture.

 

[Thaeoles]

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him: and without him was made nothing that was made. In him was life, and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it. --John 1:1-5


This,

Is not the Word.



This,

Is the Word.



Glad we cleared that up. The first image, by the way, is of Scripture.

All Scripture is breathed out by God.

 

[laconicstudent]

All Scripture is breathed out by God.

God gave a specific formulation of incense for the Israelites to use.

 

[Thaeoles]

God gave a specific formulation of incense for the Israelites to use.

Thanks for your random thought.

 

[laconicstudent]

Thanks for your random thought.

I thank you for yours as well.

 

[Thaeoles]

I thank you for yours as well.

You're welcome.

 

[MamaZ]

but these are items you need and things you need to do in order to draw near to God -- they are your barriers.

So in order for you to have a relationship with your wife or mother or sister it is a barrier to talk to them and listen to what they have to say? Or do you have to go through your mother to speak to your wife or sister?

 

[MamaZ]

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him: and without him was made nothing that was made. In him was life, and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it. --John 1:1-5


This,

Is not the Word.



This,

Is the Word.



Glad we cleared that up. The first image, by the way, is of Scripture.

And when God said let there be light?

 

[MamaZ]

God gave a specific formulation of incense for the Israelites to use.

 

[jckstraw72]

So in order for you to have a relationship with your wife or mother or sister it is a barrier to talk to them and listen to what they have to say? Or do you have to go through your mother to speak to your wife or sister?

according to Simon's definition, yes, it is a barrier.

 

[Standing Up]

It's always those semantics Presbyter DOES NOT mean levitical-type priest, as it came to be misunderstood LATER.

In addition to scripture and the Didache's two offices of bishop and deacon, believe Clement of Rome, ironically, also only mentions the two offices.

Whated to follow up my comment and let folks know this from Chapter 42 of Clement's letter---

Chapter XLII.—The order of ministers in the Church.

The apostles have preached the Gospel to us from178178 Or, “by the command of.” the Lord Jesus Christ; Jesus Christ [has done so] from179179 Or, “by the command of.” God. Christ therefore was sent forth by God, and the apostles by Christ. Both these appointments,180180 Literally, “both things were done.” then, were made in an orderly way, according to the will of God. Having therefore received their orders, and being fully assured by the resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ, and established181181 Or, “confirmed by.” in the word of God, with full assurance of the Holy Ghost, they went forth proclaiming that the kingdom of God was at hand. And thus preaching through countries and cities, they appointed the first-fruits [of their labours], having first proved them by the Spirit,182182 Or, “having tested them in spirit.” to be bishops and deacons of those who should afterwards believe. Nor was this any new thing, since indeed many ages before it was written concerning bishops and deacons. For thus saith the Scripture in a certain place, “I will appoint their bishops183183 Or, “overseers.” in righteousness, and their deacons184184 Or, “servants.” in faith.”185
ANF01. The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus | Christian Classics Ethereal Library

The fruit from apostles was bishops and deacons. No priests are mentioned. Again, same as in the Didache. No separate class of NT priest. (And same in scripture)

 

[MamaZ]

according to Simon's definition, yes, it is a barrier.

Explain a little more of what you are stating here because I don't understand.

 

[Trento]

It's always those semantics Presbyter DOES NOT mean levitical-type priest, as it came to be misunderstood LATER.

In addition to scripture and the Didache's two offices of bishop and deacon, believe Clement of Rome, ironically, also only mentions the two offices.

The Epistle of Polycarp to the Philippians


Polycarp, and the presbyters with him, to the Church of God sojourning at Philippi: Mercy to you, and peace from God Almighty, and from the Lord Jesus Christ, our Saviour, be multiplied.

ANF01. The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus | Christian Classics Ethereal Library

 

[Standing Up]

The Epistle of Polycarp to the Philippians


Polycarp, and the presbyters with him, to the Church of God sojourning at Philippi: Mercy to you, and peace from God Almighty, and from the Lord Jesus Christ, our Saviour, be multiplied.

ANF01. The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus | Christian Classics Ethereal Library

Sure, of course, Scripture, Polycarp of Smyrna c155, Didache c125?, Clement of Rome c95?, a diverse group. Presbyter means elder, the body of elders. No contradictions, confusions, or schisms on this issue in the Church.

1 Tim. 4:14 Neglect not the gift that is in thee , which was given thee by prophecy , with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery

Vines Expository Dictionary of NT Words
Elder, Eldest:
"an assembly of aged men," denotes
(a) the Council or Senate among the Jews, Luk 22:66; Act 22:5;
(b) the "elders" or bishops in a local church, 1Ti 4:14, "the presbytery." For their functions see A, No. 1, (3).

Strong's
a body of elders

NONE OF THEM MEAN PRIEST as it came to be defined LATER.

 

[Trento]

Sure, of course, Scripture, Polycarp of Smyrna c155, Didache c125?, Clement of Rome c95?, a diverse group. Presbyter means elder, the body of elders. No contradictions, confusions, or schisms on this issue in the Church.

1 Tim. 4:14 Neglect not the gift that is in thee , which was given thee by prophecy , with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery

Vines Expository Dictionary of NT Words
Elder, Eldest:
"an assembly of aged men," denotes
(a) the Council or Senate among the Jews, Luk 22:66; Act 22:5;
(b) the "elders" or bishops in a local church, 1Ti 4:14, "the presbytery." For their functions see A, No. 1, (3).

Strong's
a body of elders

NONE OF THEM MEAN PRIEST as it came to be defined LATER.

The very etymology of the word "priest" in english comes from the greek word "presbyter" which means "elder." The notion of the ordained Christian ministry being a priestly ministry is supported by St. Paul himself when he contrasts the Eucharist to the "altar of demons" in 1Cor 10:21-

"You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons. You cannot partake of the table of the Lord and the table of demons."
​

St Paul doesn't say that we Christians have NO sacrifice, but instead that we cannot partake of both the sacrifices to idols and the Eucharist. The implication is that the Eucharist is also a sacrifice. St Paul himself describes his own ministry as a priesthood:

Romans 15: 15 But on some points I have written to you very boldly by way of reminder, because of the grace given me by God 16 to be a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles in the priestly service of the gospel of God, so that the offering of the Gentiles may be acceptable, sanctified by the Holy Spirit. 17 In Christ Jesus, then, I have reason to boast of my work for God.
The term "minister" by which St Paul refers to himself in the above quote is "leiturgos" in greek which is itself another word for priest.
​

If St Paul considers himself to be a priest, anyone who DENIES that "Christian" ministry is a priestly ministry has rebuked St. Paul.

Protestan Historical Scholar Philip Schaff -- HISTORY of the CHRISTIAN CHURCH
CHAPTER IV:

The ministerial office was instituted by the Lord before his ascension, and solemnly inaugurated on the first Christian Pentecost by the outpouring of the Holy Ghost, to be the regular organ of the kingly power of Christ on earth in founding, maintaining, and extending the church. It appears in the New Testament under different names, descriptive of its various functions:—the "ministry of the word," "of the Spirit," "of righteousness," "of reconciliation." It includes the preaching of the gospel, the administration of the sacraments, and church discipline or the power of the keys, the power to open and shut the gates of the kingdom of heaven, in other words, to declare to the penitent the forgiveness of sins, and to the unworthy excommunication in the name and by the Authority of Christ.
The idea and institution of a special priesthood, distinct from the body of the people, with the accompanying notion of sacrifice and altar, passed imperceptibly from Jewish reminiscences and analogies into the Christian church.
In the external organization of the church, several important changes appear in the period before us. The distinction of clergy and laity, and the sacerdotal view of the ministry becomes prominent and fixed; subordinate church offices are multiplied; the episcopate arises; the beginnings of the Roman primacy appear; and the exclusive unity of the Catholic church develops itself in opposition to heretics and schismatics. The apostolical organization of the first century now gives place to the old Catholic episcopal system.

 

[Standing Up]

The very etymology of the word "priest" in english comes from the greek word "presbyter" which means "elder."

I know. So do you. The difference between us is that you accept how it came to be meant. I start and stop at its original meaning.

The faith once delivered, not developed. The gospel I preach to salvation, not the one later formed.

Presbyter means elder. Stop. Drop. Stay.

The notion of the ordained Christian ministry being a priestly ministry is supported by St. Paul himself when he contrasts the Eucharist to the "altar of demons" in 1Cor 10:21-

"You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons. You cannot partake of the table of the Lord and the table of demons."
​

St Paul doesn't say that we Christians have NO sacrifice, but instead that we cannot partake of both the sacrifices to idols and the Eucharist.

The word for table refers to the table of shewbread, not the brazen altar for sacrifice. The meaning is eat of the LORD (learn of Him), not devils. As well, that appears to be leavened bread.

The implication is that the Eucharist is also a sacrifice.

Since the premise is faulty, the conclusion doesn't follow.

St Paul himself describes his own ministry as a priesthood:

Romans 15: 15 But on some points I have written to you very boldly by way of reminder, because of the grace given me by God 16 to be a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles in the priestly service of the gospel of God, so that the offering of the Gentiles may be acceptable, sanctified by the Holy Spirit. 17 In Christ Jesus, then, I have reason to boast of my work for God.
The term "minister" by which St Paul refers to himself in the above quote is "leiturgos" in greek which is itself another word for priest.
​

If St Paul considers himself to be a priest, anyone who DENIES that "Christian" ministry is a priestly ministry has rebuked St. Paul.

Dude---
If you are a Christian, you have to quit doing these things.

Quit stringing together quotes as if they all came from one spot. And quit "quoting" while deleting the author's words.

It is misleading and dishonest.

Protestan Historical Scholar Philip Schaff -- HISTORY of the CHRISTIAN CHURCH

CHAPTER IV:

The ministerial office was instituted by the Lord before his ascension, and solemnly inaugurated on the first Christian Pentecost by the outpouring of the Holy Ghost, to be the regular organ of the kingly power of Christ on earth in founding, maintaining, and extending the church. It appears in the New Testament under different names, descriptive of its various functions:—the "ministry of the word," "of the Spirit," "of righteousness," "of reconciliation." It includes the preaching of the gospel, the administration of the sacraments, and church discipline or the power of the keys, the power to open and shut the gates of the kingdom of heaven, in other words, to declare to the penitent the forgiveness of sins, and to the unworthy excommunication in the name and by the Authority of Christ.

Here's from where this quote came
History of the Christian Church, Volume I: Apostolic Christianity. A.D. 1-100. | Christian Classics Ethereal Library

Here's the second quote from Trento strung together---

AS TRENTO QUOTED---The idea and institution of a special priesthood, distinct from the body of the people, with the accompanying notion of sacrifice and altar, passed imperceptibly from Jewish reminiscences

and analogies into the Christian church.

AS THE AUTHOR WROTE---
The idea and institution of a special priesthood, distinct from the body of the people, with the accompanying notion of sacrifice and altar, passed imperceptibly from Jewish and heathen reminiscences and analogies into the Christian church.

The author is telling you Trento that you follow Jewish and Pagan practices.

Here's a third spot dishonestly strung together.
History of the Christian Church, Volume II: Ante-Nicene Christianity. A.D. 100-325. | Christian Classics Ethereal Library

In the external organization of the church, several important changes appear in the period before us.

The distinction of clergy and laity, and the sacerdotal view of the ministry becomes prominent and fixed; subordinate church offices are multiplied; the episcopate arises; the beginnings of the Roman primacy appear; and the exclusive unity of the Catholic church develops itself in opposition to heretics and schismatics. The apostolical organization of the first century now gives place to the old Catholic episcopal system.

Here's from where the second quote came (this is out of order before I realized Trento's ways.
History of the Christian Church, Volume II: Ante-Nicene Christianity. A.D. 100-325. | Christian Classics Ethereal Library

Trento, he is slapping your face and you haven't a clue. He is telling you from where your concepts of priest and sacrifice arose, from OT Jewish tradition and Pagan practices (see Clement of Rome's letter about the phoenix and reference to pagan sun worship), not NT. Golden calf all over again (we'll do it our way, with our own hands).

You need, brother Trento, to repent of your dishonest way of quoting sources and subtracting their words. Else don't bother responding here again.

 

[simonthezealot]

Dude---
If you are a Christian, you have to quit doing these things.

Quit stringing together quotes as if they all came from one spot. And quit "quoting" while deleting the author's words.

It is misleading and dishonest.

You need, brother Trento, to repent of your dishonest way of quoting sources and subtracting their words. Else don't bother responding here again.

He has been admonished numerous times regarding this very issue, yet he carries on. It so frustrated me that no-one would do anything about it. I think it's time to bring this to member services.

 

[Kristos]

Presbyter i would agree, but a priest/sacerdos is different, and is no longer applicable under the new covenant.

Then I honestly don't understand what you are arguing against. The liturgical offering is offered by ALL and for ALL. This is explicitly stated in the service. Through the sacrement of the gather, the gathered fulfill their vocation by becoming the Body of Christ, the head of which is Christ. This is also presented through the action of the Great Entrance, the gifts are processed around the gathered, physically show through action that although it is not being physically handled by each person individually, it is being offered by all because the gathered have unified into one body, that of Christ.