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Sabbath should not be discussed in SDA specific forums

Major1

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Talking about the Sabbath in a general forums creates nothing but stumbling blocks. It is as denominational as any other sect of Christianity represented on this forum, and should have its "security" in its own space.

Christians are not united; forcing unification and agreement on doctrine that is well-established to be disagreeable within the sphere of the namesake belief is as counter-productive as opening up post-tribulation eschatology to a general forum.

It is also a beacon for distraction, and derailing from persons who would otherwise care nothing about the topic.

When the Sabbath is determined to be Truth in the Christian community, then maybe it should be open to everyone. But, why create a stumbling block when we *know* most Christians do not believe the Sabbath is the seventh day, or that it is a commandment for all of mankind.

You will just get Christian vs. Christian, which is a hackneyed common occurrence on these forums.

The bottom line is that keeping the Sabbath for you is keeping the Law.

It is just that simple.

In other words, the work that Jesus did on the cross was not
enough so you believe that you must help him by doing something.
 
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tatteredsoul

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The bottom line is that keeping the Sabbath for you is keeping the Law.

It is just that simple.

In other words, the work that Jesus did on the cross was not
enough so you believe that you must help him by doing something.

Is that what you truly believe?

For one, I don't know if I am a genetic Hebrew or not; I do NOT assume I am not.

With that said, I actually like following His laws - everything He has said He commands. I enjoy it even if I can't follow it all.

My [in]ability to follow ALL of His law is a limit of my carnality, not my spirituality .

Concerning the Sabbaths - including the Weekly Sabbath - I follow them because they are holy days, and the only Holy Days God Himself actually stated. When I was learning about them, and their purpose, I found them a bit drab. But, then when I learned their meaning and purpose they became as fun and anticipated as Christmas is to many people.

I am not doing that because I think Christ needs help - that is laughably ascinine.

I am doing it because I actually see the REST and DELIGHT in them.



When I was in university as a pure science student, the stress and workload was overwhelming. I was taking 15-18 credits of graduate hours a semester when only 9 was required. Guess what helped me? The Sabbath.

No matter how many labs, research, problem sets or data I had to analyze I had that one day designated to DO NOTHING, relax, read my bible, cook a great meal, drink a glass of wine, and go to sleep. When I started the Sabbath like that - a real rest day with God - I ironically rose my GPA by 0.3 points in one semester.

The sabbath was made for me.

The Sabbath was made for God and me.



Now, even when I am too bogged down with life to remember the actual sabbath day (according to the celestial time keeping described in the bible,) I find that my spirit rests me, and meditates on God automatically on the Sabbath

If you think the Sabbath is about a feeling of being forced to keep the Law (I am assuming with the idea that keeping the law gains salvation,) then I truly feel upset for you. You are truly missing out.

But, the idea that God''s Law is ever up for obedience negotiation is a very dangerous idea. Christ never said this, He never said His Father''s Law is null in any way, or that only Hebrews are to follow His laws. A major clause in the NEW AGREEMENT/Covenant of new has always been:

The law will be written on the heart of every single person, and will be founded in them so much so that they will not have to ask their neighbor, "Do you know God?" They will all know Him.

If you want to be part of that agreement, you must follow the conditions. There is not ONE condition that states that you can ignore and throw out God's laws of old and new in exchange for a condensed two-rule systematic law of love. Even the Pharisees didn't try to argue this, and instead argued to discredit Christ from a strict legalistic point of view. Even the pharisees knew it was ascinine to suggest God would allow us to ignore His laws previously set up.


Even if I don't follow all of God''s laws perfectly, they liberate me when I do. They do not make me feel bounded. In fact, they give me truth. When I disobey Him, I can clearly see the impact and error (especially after a cosmic spanking.) I choose to follow all of His law to the best of my ability - without the expectation of salvation for my obedience.

In other words, I [try to] follow all of His law out of love, respect, and ease for my life I have learned comes with that obedience. If I fail, I know that because of Christ''s sacrifice, God has patience with me, and grace on me and this carnal body trying desperately to be like Him.

My salvation isn't based on my obedience - sabbath keeping included.
 
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Major1

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Is that what you truly believe?

For one, I don't know if I am a genetic Hebrew or not; I do NOT assume I am not.

With that said, I actually like following His laws - everything He has said He commands. I enjoy it even if I can't follow it all.

My [in]ability to follow ALL of His law is a limit of my carnality, not my spirituality .

Concerning the Sabbaths - including the Weekly Sabbath - I follow them because they are holy days, and the only Holy Days God Himself actually stated. When I was learning about them, and their purpose, I found them a bit drab. But, then when I learned their meaning and purpose they became as fun and anticipated as Christmas is to many people.

I am not doing that because I think Christ needs help - that is laughably ascinine.

I am doing it because I actually see the REST and DELIGHT in them.



When I was in university as a pure science student, the stress and workload was overwhelming. I was taking 15-18 credits of graduate hours a semester when only 9 was required. Guess what helped me? The Sabbath.

No matter how many labs, research, problem sets or data I had to analyze I had that one day designated to DO NOTHING, relax, read my bible, cook a great meal, drink a glass of wine, and go to sleep. When I started the Sabbath like that - a real rest day with God - I ironically rose my GPA by 0.3 points in one semester.

The sabbath was made for me.

The Sabbath was made for God and me.



Now, even when I am too bogged down with life to remember the actual sabbath day (according to the celestial time keeping described in the bible,) I find that my spirit rests me, and meditates on God automatically on the Sabbath

If you think the Sabbath is about a feeling of being forced to keep the Law (I am assuming with the idea that keeping the law gains salvation,) then I truly feel upset for you. You are truly missing out.

But, the idea that God''s Law is ever up for obedience negotiation is a very dangerous idea. Christ never said this, He never said His Father''s Law is null in any way, or that only Hebrews are to follow His laws. A major clause in the NEW AGREEMENT/Covenant of new has always been:

The law will be written on the heart of every single person, and will be founded in them so much so that they will not have to ask their neighbor, "Do you know God?" They will all know Him.

If you want to be part of that agreement, you must follow the conditions. There is not ONE condition that states that you can ignore and throw out God's laws of old and new in exchange for a condensed two-rule systematic law of love. Even the Pharisees didn't try to argue this, and instead argued to discredit Christ from a strict legalistic point of view. Even the pharisees knew it was ascinine to suggest God would allow us to ignore His laws previously set up.


Even if I don't follow all of God''s laws perfectly, they liberate me when I do. They do not make me feel bounded. In fact, they give me truth. When I disobey Him, I can clearly see the impact and error (especially after a cosmic spanking.) I choose to follow all of His law to the best of my ability - without the expectation of salvation for my obedience.

In other words, I [try to] follow all of His law out of love, respect, and ease for my life I have learned comes with that obedience. If I fail, I know that because of Christ''s sacrifice, God has patience with me, and grace on me and this carnal body trying desperately to be like Him.

My salvation isn't based on my obedience - sabbath keeping included.

It does not matter one little bit what I think. The fact is that anyone, including you, if you believe that you must keep the Sabbath, you are adding works to God's salvation. THAT is the bottom line my dear friend whether you accept it or not!

ANYTHING we do to add to the finished work of the Lord Jesus for our salvation is wrong. Our works take away from God's grace and salvation whether it be keeping the Sabbath, not eating pork, etc.
 
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tatteredsoul

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It does not matter one little bit what I think. The fact is that anyone, including you, if you believe that you must keep the Sabbath, you are adding works to God's salvation. THAT is the bottom line my dear friend whether you accept it or not!

ANYTHING we do to add to the finished work of the Lord Jesus for our salvation is wrong. Our works take away from God's grace and salvation whether it be keeping the Sabbath, not eating pork, etc.


And, where did I ever say my salvation depends on keeping the law? This is a mistake many people make, and deliberately overlook when they find someone who is for following every single law of God for providence instead of profit (like gaining salvation.)

You would be hard pressed to find someone who would say they follow all of God's law in order to gain salvation.

I categorically said the opposite.

I also said there is nowhere in the bible where Christ said God's law was null, or not to be followed. Nowhere.

Nowhere does it say the food laws are abolished; Acts was a prophetic dream about accepting gentiles. God would never tell His people to commit an act He previously said was an abomination. Peter knew this, and he explained this later.

So, while I do think we all should follow all of God's law if you want to be CALLED His, by Christ, our salvation does NOT depend on obedience.

But, part of the WORKS of faith is obedience. It is the fruit.

I have been through this many times on these forums, but not one person has ever been able to show me where Christ, or God has specifically said that we can break any of God's laws previously set up. Only MEN have said this.

So, I will continue to follow the Sabbsth, and to the best of my abilities ALL of His laws for my own enrichment, and as part of my respect of obedience to Him.

It isn't adding anything, because God Himself said it. Removing the responsibility of obedience is a human addition to Christianity (subtraction is inverse addition.)

If you can show me where Christ, or God Himself said that gentile or Hebrew doesn't have to follow His laws He previously set up for whatever reason, then you will have me. Otherwise, I sidea with God.
 
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masmpg

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If you believe Christians are obligated to observe the Sabbath by resting on the seventh day of the week, then you are free to your opinion--but your opinion on that matter doesn't change the fact that Sabbatarianism is restricted to certain areas in order to avoid clogging the system with Sabbath threads.

Suffice to say, the Christian Church, since the days of the Apostles, has confessed that Christians are under no compulsion to observe the Torah which had been given exclusively to the Jews as part of the covenant God made with them at Sinai. Which is why St. Paul says not to let anyone judge us concerning sabbaths, new moons, feasts, foods, and drink. Christians are not under the covenant which God made with the nation of Israel through Moses; we are under the covenant which is in Christ which is in His shed blood on the cross.

If I want to observe the Jewish Sabbath I'll convert to Judaism. But I have no intention on doing so, since I am a Christian.

-CryptoLutheran

I am a Christian too and I observe the sabbath. To say that there is any form of "cultish" practices about sabbath keepers is out of line. I challenge anybody to prove from the bible where I am bound to keep sunday holy, or where we are told the sabbath, or the Lord's day, is not the seventh day. In private messages.

To remove all sabbath discussions from the public on here will cause those who are interested in the truth to miss out on a great blessing. To use the excuse that the sabbath threads are "clogging up the system", well that is a poor excuse at best.
 
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masmpg

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Talking about the Sabbath in a general forums creates nothing but stumbling blocks. It is as denominational as any other sect of Christianity represented on this forum, and should have its "security" in its own space.

Christians are not united; forcing unification and agreement on doctrine that is well-established to be disagreeable within the sphere of the namesake belief is as counter-productive as opening up post-tribulation eschatology to a general forum.

It is also a beacon for distraction, and derailing from persons who would otherwise care nothing about the topic.

When the Sabbath is determined to be Truth in the Christian community, then maybe it should be open to everyone. But, why create a stumbling block when we *know* most Christians do not believe the Sabbath is the seventh day, or that it is a commandment for all of mankind.

You will just get Christian vs. Christian, which is a hackneyed common occurrence on these forums.

This does make a lot of sense, and I agree somewhat with your comment. But just because people do not believe that the seventh day sabbath is binding today does not mean it is so. To say that there is no proof of the seventh day sabbath is errant. I will turn that around and have asked this question for years, "can you prove from the bible that SUNday is a holy day"? Can you prove from the bible alone that the sabbath was somehow done away? I can prove that we are told to keep the sabbath in the new testament.
 
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tatteredsoul

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This does make a lot of sense, and I agree somewhat with your comment. But just because people do not believe that the seventh day sabbath is binding today does not mean it is so. To say that there is no proof of the seventh day sabbath is errant. I will turn that around and have asked this question for years, "can you prove from the bible that SUNday is a holy day"? Can you prove from the bible alone that the sabbath was somehow done away? I can prove that we are told to keep the sabbath in the new testament.

Many have tried to "prove" the necessity and legitimacy of God word only to be met with the most opposition by other Christians.

Ten commandments
Christmas
Covenants
Laws of God
Sabbaths
Food consumption
Circumcision
Faith without works
Salvation
Who is the church?
Hebrew Law vs. Gentile Law requirements

...


Bob_Ryan posts at least one of these topics a week in defense of God''s word, and is often trashed - if only for being a SDA and being presumptively associated with Ellen White.

I had no idea WHO Ellen White was until someone on THESE FORUMS accused me of blindly following her and her doctrine because I am pro-sabbath.

You could make a thread RIGHT NOW saying the 10 commandments are to be followed, and you would be met with superfluous opposition from your brethren. I have participated in a thread titled "The 10 commandments are done away with..."

I think is futility at this point to try to spread the message over the entirety of the general pop. of these forums.
 
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masmpg

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Many have tried to "prove" the necessity and legitimacy of God word only to be met with the most opposition by other Christians.

Ten commandments
Christmas
Covenants
Laws of God
Sabbaths
Food consumption
Circumcision
Faith without works
Salvation
Who is the church?
Hebrew Law vs. Gentile Law requirements

...


Bob_Ryan posts at least one of these topics a week in defense of God''s word, and is often trashed - if only for being a SDA and being presumptively associated with Ellen White.

I had no idea WHO Ellen White was until someone on THESE FORUMS accused me of blindly following her and her doctrine because I am pro-sabbath.

You could make a thread RIGHT NOW saying the 10 commandments are to be followed, and you would be met with superfluous opposition from your brethren. I have participated in a thread titled "The 10 commandments are done away with..."

I think is futility at this point to try to spread the message over the entirety of the general pop. of these forums.

It is amazing what people believe. Most of which is denominational tradition, not biblical.

I am SDA and not ashamed to admit it. I have studied for fifty years and have been in all mainstream denominations just to end up against the wall of tradition, which most of the time goes contrary to God's word. The SDA denomination is the only denomination that does not limit the bible to the church fathers.

If I started a thread on the public forums about having to follow the ten commandments it would be deleted, like some of my other posts are, and this one probably will be too.

Yeah I think sticking with the SDA forums, where people actually encourage each other when they share truth instead of arguing about everything. Personally I prefer to encourage instead of argue, far more people will appreciate it that way. Even then the truth is never popular, and if Jesus were here today attending any denomination they would disfellowship Him and even crucify Him because Christianity today has strayed so far from His original principles, especially about reproof and judging. Jesus said in John:7:24: "Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment." I pray every morning that the Lord would remove the beam so I can help people see the splinter in their eye. I consider my posts as observations not judging.
 
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Major1

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And, where did I ever say my salvation depends on keeping the law? This is a mistake many people make, and deliberately overlook when they find someone who is for following every single law of God for providence instead of profit (like gaining salvation.)

You would be hard pressed to find someone who would say they follow all of God's law in order to gain salvation.

I categorically said the opposite.

I also said there is nowhere in the bible where Christ said God's law was null, or not to be followed. Nowhere.

Nowhere does it say the food laws are abolished; Acts was a prophetic dream about accepting gentiles. God would never tell His people to commit an act He previously said was an abomination. Peter knew this, and he explained this later.

So, while I do think we all should follow all of God's law if you want to be CALLED His, by Christ, our salvation does NOT depend on obedience.

But, part of the WORKS of faith is obedience. It is the fruit.

I have been through this many times on these forums, but not one person has ever been able to show me where Christ, or God has specifically said that we can break any of God's laws previously set up. Only MEN have said this.

So, I will continue to follow the Sabbsth, and to the best of my abilities ALL of His laws for my own enrichment, and as part of my respect of obedience to Him.

It isn't adding anything, because God Himself said it. Removing the responsibility of obedience is a human addition to Christianity (subtraction is inverse addition.)

If you can show me where Christ, or God Himself said that gentile or Hebrew doesn't have to follow His laws He previously set up for whatever reason, then you will have me. Otherwise, I sidea with God.

Rom. 7:4-6...........
“Likewise, my brothers, you also have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who has been raised from the dead, in order that we may bear fruit for God. For while we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death. But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code.”

What does that mean to you?

If you want to go to church on Sat........do it! If you do not want to eat pork, don't eat it!

Just do not think that everyone needs to do what you want to do because what you do is not Biblical but a personal choice.

Hebrews 8:13 .......

" By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear."

What does that verse mean to you????

It says to me that the Old Testament law: None of it is valid. Christians do not have to keep the law of Moses because those laws were a temporary package, designed to be in force only until the Messiah came. Now that he has come and given us a better covenant, the first is obsolete.

Christ, by bringing a new covenant, has transformed the law. The same underlying law still exists—the law of love. Jesus did not change that law at all. Rather, he fulfilled it. The old covenant, including the sacrifices, tassels and Jubilee years, had specific, physical applications of the underlying law of love. But those specifics are, in many cases, now obsolete. The spirit of the law remains, but the letter does not. The old covenant way is not the way to apply the purpose of the law. There are other ways to express our devotion to God and our love for our neighbors.

The Sabbath commandment, had several purposes. It was a reminder of creation; it was a reminder of the Israelites’ exodus from Egypt; it was a reminder of their special relationship with the Creator. It provided physical rest for animals, servants and families.

Morally, the Sabbath symbolized our duty to cease from evil works. Christologically, it symbolized our need to find spiritual rest in Christ, to trust in him rather than our own works for salvation. It symbolized the completion of our creation at the end of the age.

Now, if we have the spirit of the law written in our hearts, will we automatically, without need for written instructions, refuse to work on a particular day of the week? Will we, from our hearts, know that holy time extends from evening to evening? Will we automatically perceive that this specific time is so important that we should be willing to lose our jobs because of it? The answer is obvious: No. These things are dependent on the written old covenant. They are not automatic even if our hearts are right with God. The spirit of the Sabbath law does not automatically produce the letter – but Christians are to focus on the spirit.
 
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tatteredsoul

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It is amazing what people believe. Most of which is denominational tradition, not biblical.

I am SDA and not ashamed to admit it. I have studied for fifty years and have been in all mainstream denominations just to end up against the wall of tradition, which most of the time goes contrary to God's word. The SDA denomination is the only denomination that does not limit the bible to the church fathers.

If I started a thread on the public forums about having to follow the ten commandments it would be deleted, like some of my other posts are, and this one probably will be too.

Yeah I think sticking with the SDA forums, where people actually encourage each other when they share truth instead of arguing about everything. Personally I prefer to encourage instead of argue, far more people will appreciate it that way. Even then the truth is never popular, and if Jesus were here today attending any denomination they would disfellowship Him and even crucify Him because Christianity today has strayed so far from His original principles, especially about reproof and judging. Jesus said in John:7:24: "Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment." I pray every morning that the Lord would remove the beam so I can help people see the splinter in their eye. I consider my posts as observations not judging.

I think also it is safe for people like me who, may not necessarily be SDA, but subscribe to certain things like sabbath on the 7th day. My "non-denominational" tag has been welcome in the SDA forums often, and we often have great conversation. We don't always agree, but it is at least civil.

The irony is that when these topic of God are put on general forums, it is interesting that the atheist and agnostics are more clear on God's word than our brethren - even if it is for the sake of undermining our faith in practice.

When I really think about it, it makes me sad.
 
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tatteredsoul

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Rom. 7:4-6...........
“Likewise, my brothers, you also have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who has been raised from the dead, in order that we may bear fruit for God. For while we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death. But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code.”

What does that mean to you?

If you want to go to church on Sat........do it! If you do not want to eat pork, don't eat it!

Just do not think that everyone needs to do what you want to do because what you do is not Biblical but a personal choice.

Hebrews 8:13 .......

" By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear."

What does that verse mean to you????

It says to me that the Old Testament law: None of it is valid. Christians do not have to keep the law of Moses because those laws were a temporary package, designed to be in force only until the Messiah came. Now that he has come and given us a better covenant, the first is obsolete.

Christ, by bringing a new covenant, has transformed the law. The same underlying law still exists—the law of love. Jesus did not change that law at all. Rather, he fulfilled it. The old covenant, including the sacrifices, tassels and Jubilee years, had specific, physical applications of the underlying law of love. But those specifics are, in many cases, now obsolete. The spirit of the law remains, but the letter does not. The old covenant way is not the way to apply the purpose of the law. There are other ways to express our devotion to God and our love for our neighbors.

The Sabbath commandment, had several purposes. It was a reminder of creation; it was a reminder of the Israelites’ exodus from Egypt; it was a reminder of their special relationship with the Creator. It provided physical rest for animals, servants and families.

Morally, the Sabbath symbolized our duty to cease from evil works. Christologically, it symbolized our need to find spiritual rest in Christ, to trust in him rather than our own works for salvation. It symbolized the completion of our creation at the end of the age.

Now, if we have the spirit of the law written in our hearts, will we automatically, without need for written instructions, refuse to work on a particular day of the week? Will we, from our hearts, know that holy time extends from evening to evening? Will we automatically perceive that this specific time is so important that we should be willing to lose our jobs because of it? The answer is obvious: No. These things are dependent on the written old covenant. They are not automatic even if our hearts are right with God. The spirit of the Sabbath law does not automatically produce the letter – but Christians are to focus on the spirit.

Christ, or God did NOT say anything about any of their laws passing, being null, inert or non applicable for Hebrew, or gentiles who trust and believe in Him.

If Christ, or God said anything close to that (nullification, or dismissal of any of God's law) I am all ears.

But, I won't hear it from any other human except Christ. It has to be from Him, or God. No human interpretation of a human interpretation of a human interpretation of the word of God.

Something THIS important - the determination of what law of God is to be followed - is something He, or the literal Word of God would detail.

I want it from either of them. Because, if Paul says the sky is blue, and God says it is red, the TRUTH is that the sky is red - no matter what we think.

If you can do what no one else on these forums, or in life even, has been able to do, then I am all ears: truly.
 
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masmpg

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I think also it is safe for people like me who, may not necessarily be SDA, but subscribe to certain things like sabbath on the 7th day. My "non-denominational" tag has been welcome in the SDA forums often, and we often have great conversation. We don't always agree, but it is at least civil.

The irony is that when these topic of God are put on general forums, it is interesting that the atheist and agnostics are more clear on God's word than our brethren - even if it is for the sake of undermining our faith in practice.

When I really think about it, it makes me sad.

You said a mouthful about atheists and agnostics! It is quite ironic that people will only show their true colors when it is to prove someone wrong instead of the Christian principle of encouragement instead of argument. Argument will never lead anybody anywhere.

I weep often and I am certain Jesus does too, just like when He was at Lazarus tomb. The shortest verse in the bible "Jesus wept". Too many think He was weeping for Lazarus, but Lazarus was going to be resurrected, why would He weep for him? He was weeping for His people who were plotting to kill Him and Lazarus, His own people! Very sad indeed.
 
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tatteredsoul

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You said a mouthful about atheists and agnostics! It is quite ironic that people will only show their true colors when it is to prove someone wrong instead of the Christian principle of encouragement instead of argument. Argument will never lead anybody anywhere.

I weep often and I am certain Jesus does too, just like when He was at Lazarus tomb. The shortest verse in the bible "Jesus wept". Too many think He was weeping for Lazarus, but Lazarus was going to be resurrected, why would He weep for him? He was weeping for His people who were plotting to kill Him and Lazarus, His own people! Very sad indeed.

"Forgive them [Father,] for they knno not what they do..."

I would like to think I had that type of discipline in understanding and forgiveness for my enemies... but I won't even pretend.

That couldn't be me.

But I guess that's one of many reasons why I was not the one on the cross dying for our salvation.

I am still raw about family that has done me supremely wrong (yet, I am sti alive.)


Anyway, sometimes I see atheists and agnostics arguing what they see Christians NOT doing according to God's word, and I think, "if you could just soften your heart enough to realize how close you are..."

I started out agnostic - raised in the SOUTH (which, for me to say this is considered cultural blasphemy.) Christianity was not forced on me at all. I was agnostic because a lot of "churchiness" didn't make sense.

It didn't make sense for me to be told God loves me, and then go to sleep in fear of dying and going to hell.

It didn't make sense for me to literally shake with fear whenever I prayed TO God because of His awesomness.

It didn't make sense to me that I could essentially maintain my culture of "agnosticism," claim Christ, and continue the life I lived whilst calling myself Christian.

A lot didn't make sense to me. And, like you it took me years from conversion to now to "barely get it."

Trying to reconcile Paul was stressful and exhausting enough.

I think we are failing in our mission, because it is almost like we are competing for Daddy''s love and attention, and we forgot there are people who haven't even come home yet that we need to get!

A lot of atheists and agnostics, for good reason, are tired of the bull of "Christiandom." If only we could collectively lead by example...

I can't honestly say I blame them. As I said, I feel like we are failing them (and, I include myself.)
 
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Gerhard Ebersoehn

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The bottom line is that keeping the Sabbath for you is keeping the Law.

It is just that simple.

In other words, the work that Jesus did on the cross was not
enough so you believe that you must help him by doing something.

Says who?
Says Major1. Says Major1, YOU, acting and replacing God, assuming God's function, playing JUDGE.

Even were it true, <<The bottom line is that keeping the Sabbath for (me / us) is keeping the Law>> -- following Jesus Christ as when God raised Him from the dead "on the Sabbath Day": "of Sabbaths' Feast eating and drinking of Christ the Substance", by faith "not letting (our)selves be judged by ANYONE ... attempting to beguile us with enticing words of our Reward (which is Christ) ... lest any MAN (like you) spoil (us) through philosophy and vain deceit after the tradition of MEN, after the first principles of the WORLD (like your holy sunday), AND NOT AFTER CHRIST".
 
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Gerhard Ebersoehn

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Is that what you truly believe?

For one, I don't know if I am a genetic Hebrew or not; I do NOT assume I am not.

With that said, I actually like following His laws - everything He has said He commands. I enjoy it even if I can't follow it all.

My [in]ability to follow ALL of His law is a limit of my carnality, not my spirituality .

Concerning the Sabbaths - including the Weekly Sabbath - I follow them because they are holy days, and the only Holy Days God Himself actually stated. When I was learning about them, and their purpose, I found them a bit drab. But, then when I learned their meaning and purpose they became as fun and anticipated as Christmas is to many people.

I am not doing that because I think Christ needs help - that is laughably ascinine.

I am doing it because I actually see the REST and DELIGHT in them.



When I was in university as a pure science student, the stress and workload was overwhelming. I was taking 15-18 credits of graduate hours a semester when only 9 was required. Guess what helped me? The Sabbath.

No matter how many labs, research, problem sets or data I had to analyze I had that one day designated to DO NOTHING, relax, read my bible, cook a great meal, drink a glass of wine, and go to sleep. When I started the Sabbath like that - a real rest day with God - I ironically rose my GPA by 0.3 points in one semester.

The sabbath was made for me.

The Sabbath was made for God and me.



Now, even when I am too bogged down with life to remember the actual sabbath day (according to the celestial time keeping described in the bible,) I find that my spirit rests me, and meditates on God automatically on the Sabbath

If you think the Sabbath is about a feeling of being forced to keep the Law (I am assuming with the idea that keeping the law gains salvation,) then I truly feel upset for you. You are truly missing out.

But, the idea that God''s Law is ever up for obedience negotiation is a very dangerous idea. Christ never said this, He never said His Father''s Law is null in any way, or that only Hebrews are to follow His laws. A major clause in the NEW AGREEMENT/Covenant of new has always been:

The law will be written on the heart of every single person, and will be founded in them so much so that they will not have to ask their neighbor, "Do you know God?" They will all know Him.

If you want to be part of that agreement, you must follow the conditions. There is not ONE condition that states that you can ignore and throw out God's laws of old and new in exchange for a condensed two-rule systematic law of love. Even the Pharisees didn't try to argue this, and instead argued to discredit Christ from a strict legalistic point of view. Even the pharisees knew it was ascinine to suggest God would allow us to ignore His laws previously set up.


Even if I don't follow all of God''s laws perfectly, they liberate me when I do. They do not make me feel bounded. In fact, they give me truth. When I disobey Him, I can clearly see the impact and error (especially after a cosmic spanking.) I choose to follow all of His law to the best of my ability - without the expectation of salvation for my obedience.

In other words, I [try to] follow all of His law out of love, respect, and ease for my life I have learned comes with that obedience. If I fail, I know that because of Christ''s sacrifice, God has patience with me, and grace on me and this carnal body trying desperately to be like Him.

My salvation isn't based on my obedience - sabbath keeping included.

Arbitrary, desultory, irrelevant and egoistic trumpet blasting.
 
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Gerhard Ebersoehn

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It does not matter one little bit what I think. The fact is that anyone, including you, if you believe that you must keep the Sabbath, you are adding works to God's salvation. THAT is the bottom line my dear friend whether you accept it or not!

ANYTHING we do to add to the finished work of the Lord Jesus for our salvation is wrong. Our works take away from God's grace and salvation whether it be keeping the Sabbath, not eating pork, etc.

<<to add ... for our salvation>>... like who? Acting Divine Judge again!
But sure, even <adding> for the sake of adding, <<is wrong (and) take(s) away from God's grace and salvation whether it be keeping the Sabbath, not eating pork, etc.>>
Absolutely so!
Who denied though? Not GE!
 
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Gerhard Ebersoehn

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And, where did I ever say my salvation depends on keeping the law? This is a mistake many people make, and deliberately overlook when they find someone who is for following every single law of God for providence instead of profit (like gaining salvation.)

You would be hard pressed to find someone who would say they follow all of God's law in order to gain salvation.

I categorically said the opposite.

I also said there is nowhere in the bible where Christ said God's law was null, or not to be followed. Nowhere.

Nowhere does it say the food laws are abolished; Acts was a prophetic dream about accepting gentiles. God would never tell His people to commit an act He previously said was an abomination. Peter knew this, and he explained this later.

So, while I do think we all should follow all of God's law if you want to be CALLED His, by Christ, our salvation does NOT depend on obedience.

But, part of the WORKS of faith is obedience. It is the fruit.

I have been through this many times on these forums, but not one person has ever been able to show me where Christ, or God has specifically said that we can break any of God's laws previously set up. Only MEN have said this.

So, I will continue to follow the Sabbsth, and to the best of my abilities ALL of His laws for my own enrichment, and as part of my respect of obedience to Him.

It isn't adding anything, because God Himself said it. Removing the responsibility of obedience is a human addition to Christianity (subtraction is inverse addition.)

If you can show me where Christ, or God Himself said that gentile or Hebrew doesn't have to follow His laws He previously set up for whatever reason, then you will have me. Otherwise, I sidea with God.

It is a tragedy that the Sabbath ever and anon gets associated with religious CRAP like your Wednesday Crucifixionists cult's. The devil saw you coming from miles away and grabbed the chance to frustrate the historically unrepeatable opportunity to reform Sabbath doctrine since Adventism has made such a mess of it.
 
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Gerhard Ebersoehn

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To say that there is any form of "cultish" practices about sabbath keepers is out of line.

You just haven't seen them yet, which is unfortunate, because you seem to be one sober Sabbath <observer>.
God bless you and keep you in the Faith as you enter upon your road of discovering things most wonderful but also deeply disappointing in historic Sabbath doctrine up till now.
 
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tatteredsoul

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It is a tragedy that the Sabbath ever and anon gets associated with religious CRAP like your Wednesday Crucifixionists cult's. The devil saw you coming from miles away and grabbed the chance to frustrate the historically unrepeatable opportunity to reform Sabbath doctrine since Adventism has made such a mess of it.

Nice.
 
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