Sabbath and Sunday in early Christian Theology (under construction)

[Leaf473]

Deut 5:22 says that the TEN at Sinai were the Ten words He spoke and wrote "and He added no more"

Are you saying there are only ten commandments? Or that there are only 10 Commandments in the moral law?

 

[Pavel Mosko]

Are you saying there are only ten commandments? Or that there are only 10 Commandments in the moral law?

In SDA theology the 10 commandments are district from the other Mitzvot that they have termed "The Ceremonial Law". 10 Commandments = Moral Law. There are lots of problems with this kind of reasoning. A number of artificial distinctions made. Time Keeping in Judaism is definitely ceremonial in nature, the Sabbath is connected to all the new moon offerings and festivals, yet SDA make it distinct and separate by virtue of it being in the Decalogue. The reason it appears in the Decalogue is God wanted a kingdom of priests. aka Priesthood of the believer.


Exodus 19:6
Verse Concepts
and you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ These are the words that you shall speak to the sons of Israel.”

 

[SabbathBlessings]

In SDA theology the 10 commandments are district from the other Mitzvot that they have termed "The Ceremonial Law". 10 Commandments = Moral Law. There are lots of problems with this kind of reasoning. A number of artificial distinctions made. Time Keeping in Judaism is definitely ceremonial in nature, the Sabbath is connected to all the new moon offerings and festivals, yet SDA make it distinct and separate by virtue of it being in the Decalogue.

Can you show in the Decalogue where there is new moon and animal festivals? Exodus 20 There is no animal sacrifices in the Ten Commandments- the annual animal sabbath(s) ordinances was given for the forgiveness of sin Hebrews 9:22, the Ten Commandments is what points out sin Romans 7:7.

Do you not see a difference in the laws written by human versus the commandments written personally by our Creator and Savior with His own finger? Exodus 32:16 The laws that were outside the ark of the covenant versus the laws God placed inside the Ark of the Covenant that are also in heaven Revelation 11:19.

The annual Sabbath(s) sacrifices and offerings all point to Jesus who because our sacrifice for sins Col 2:14-17 Hebrews 10:1-10 when we repent from our sins, which is breaking God's law 1 John 3:4 and Paul points directly to the unit of Ten to define what sin is Romans 7:7. There is no scripture that says we can break any of the commandments of God. While God gives us free will and warns there would be a war against those who keep His commandments Revelation 12:17, which we see not only in history but currently and in the future, but only God saves, and we should always obey Him. God said to remember and keep the Sabbath day holy, man says forget. For me, I place my faith and trust in God.


Matthew 4:4 But He answered and said, “It is written, ‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.’ ”

 

[Leaf473]

In SDA theology the 10 commandments are district from the other Mitzvot that they have termed "The Ceremonial Law". 10 Commandments = Moral Law. There are lots of problems with this kind of reasoning. A number of artificial distinctions made. Time Keeping in Judaism is definitely ceremonial in nature, the Sabbath is connected to all the new moon offerings and festivals, yet SDA make it distinct and separate by virtue of it being in the Decalogue. The reason it appears in the Decalogue is God wanted a kingdom of priests. aka Priesthood of the believer.


Exodus 19:6
Verse Concepts
and you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ These are the words that you shall speak to the sons of Israel.”

Yes, and to be fair, the 10 are placed in the ark, and the entire law (including the 10?) on the outside.

The passage that is often quoted, about how it doesn't matter if you're circumcised or not, what matters is keeping the Commandments of God... Do the people who often quote it to emphasize the Ten Commandments believe that it applies only to the 10? And that there are no other Commandments that it matters if we keep?

Are the other instructions statutes or something? If there are other commandments, then it sounds like God did add more.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

Yes, and to be fair, the 10 are placed in the ark, and the entire law (including the 10?) on the outside.

I actually encountered someone poking holes in that argument. I will cite if when I find it again.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

@Leaf473 I believe it is in this one. Just started relistening to it.

Yeah, this is definite the right one... I suppose this week I should actually take detailed notes on this presentation and do a seperate thread on it here. It's very detailed, and complex. Towards the end of the video, he even gives one quote from an older SDA Illuminare that admits to his position long ago.

 

[Leaf473]

@Leaf473 I believe it is in this one. Just started relistening to it.

Yeah, this is definite the right one... I suppose this week I should actually take detailed notes on this presentation and do a seperate thread on it here. It's very detailed, and complex. Towards the end of the video, he even gives one quote from an older SDA Illuminare that admits to his position long ago.

Thanks, I'm checking it out...
______________
Edit: Pastor Doug sure has a soothing voice I might try to find his video that was being quoted in the Answering Adventism video.

I was surprised to hear pastor Doug say that it was only ceremonial laws that were on the outside of the ark. If only the Ten Commandments are on the inside, that would mean the things sometimes called moral laws would only be the Ten Commandments.

Anyways, thanks for the video. It was informative, And I agree with the thrust of it

 

[SabbathBlessings]

@Leaf473 I believe it is in this one. Just started relistening to it.

Yeah, this is definite the right one... I suppose this week I should actually take detailed notes on this presentation and do a seperate thread on it here. It's very detailed, and complex. Towards the end of the video, he even gives one quote from an older SDA Illuminare that admits to his position long ago.

Instead of posting a video, can you point to scripture where the holes you claim are made that God, the Creator wrote the Ten Commandments with His own finger and are inside the ark of the covenant compared to Moses, who handwrote the other laws given by God and were placed outside the ark. Are you disputing this? It seems like you have to rely on videos to know what scripture says so after rewatching the video, if the person speaking comes across such scripture please share.

Since we are sharing videos...

 

[Leaf473]

Just went back and edited post #68 now that I've watched the video.

I realize now it probably would have been better to just make a separate post

Anyways, a big thing I'm wondering is are there people here who agree with pastor Doug that there were no moral Commandments on the outside of the ark. Or did pastor Doug actually say that?

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Just went back and edited post #68 now that I've watched the video.

I realize now it probably would have been better to just make a separate post

Anyways, a big thing I'm wondering is are there people here who agree with pastor Doug that there were no moral Commandments on the outside of the ark. Or did pastor Doug actually say that?

Pastor Doug is not the only one who thinks the Ten Commandments are God’s moral law.

This 'handwriting of ordinances' our Lord did blot out, take away, and nail to His cross. (Colossians 2: 14.) But the moral law contained in the Ten Commandments, and enforced by the prophets, He did not take away.... The moral law stands on an entirely different foundation from the ceremonial or ritual law. ...Every part of this law must remain in force upon all mankind and in all ages.
—JOHN WESLEY, Sermons on Several Occasions, 2-Vol. Edition, Vol. I, pages 221, 222.


This is Pastor Doug on the Ten Commandments, which is more than just the letter and why it covers all of God’s moral laws. If you listen you can get it straight from the horses mouth instead of a snippet, more than likely, out of context.

Ten Commandments | Amazing Facts

The Ten Commandments are suffering an identity crisis are they merely antiquated relic of an ancient culture, or do they still have meaning, purpose, and application for people living today? Pastor Doug Batchelor explores the amazing riches that can be mined from each and every commandment...

www.amazingfacts.org

And lets not forget the original allegation… that the Ten Commandments were not placed inside the ark of the covenant compared to the law of Moses placed outside the ark which as of yet no one has proved from scripture that is apparently in the video and listening to the first minute of the video they claim Moses wrote the Ten Commandments, when God said He did. Exodus 31:18 Exodus 32:16 Deut 4:13

 

[Pavel Mosko]

I realize now it probably would have been better to just make a separate post

No worries.

The original topic seems to be dead on arrival since nobody is interested in the fact that I and other Sacramental / Traditional Christians have a high view of the Sabbath in spite of not believing that Sabbath keeping is salvific for Christians (basically philosophy of ministry and of the Bible paradigm reasons).

 

[Leaf473]

Pastor Doug is not the only one who thinks the Ten Commandments are God’s moral law.

Thank you for the information

Now about this idea: there were no moral Commandments on the outside of the ark.

Is that something you agree with? All of the moral Commandments were inside the ark, and everything in the pocket outside of the ark was not a moral commandment?

 

[Leaf473]

And lets not forget the original allegation… that the Ten Commandments were not placed inside the ark of the covenant compared to the law of Moses placed outside the ark which as of yet no one has proved from scripture that is apparently in the video...

I don't remember anyone saying here that the Ten Commandments were not placed inside the ark. The thing we're exploring is the stuff that was placed on the outside of the ark, those instructions, did they include the ten commandments?

 

[Leaf473]

...and listening to the first minute of the video they claim Moses wrote the Ten Commandments, when God said He did. Exodus 31:18 Exodus 32:16 Deut 4:13

What I got from the video is that Yes, God wrote the Ten Commandments with his finger. And then when Moses makes a copy of the book of the law, that's what goes on the outside of the ark, Moses includes the Ten Commandments. So in that way, Moses wrote the Ten Commandments, they were in Moses's handwriting on the outside of the ark.
___________
I hope to follow this up in a few minutes with some quotes I found at amazing facts.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

I don't remember anyone saying here that the Ten Commandments were not placed inside the ark. The thing we're exploring is the stuff that was placed on the outside of the ark, those instructions, did they include the ten commandments?

Post #66 the post you are responding to and the poster who posted the video as "proof"

 

[Leaf473]

Before I forget, here's the pastor Doug video that's quoted in the video in post #67

 

[Leaf473]

Post #66 the post you are responding to and the poster who posted the video as "proof"

I see, I think that post just impressed us differently. I took it to mean that the 10 were not on the outside. That's the key.

The 10 were definitely on the inside, but were they included in the book of the law that is placed on the outside?

 

[Leaf473]

Pastor Doug is not the only one who thinks the Ten Commandments are God’s moral law.

This 'handwriting of ordinances' our Lord did blot out, take away, and nail to His cross. (Colossians 2: 14.) But the moral law contained in the Ten Commandments, and enforced by the prophets, He did not take away.... The moral law stands on an entirely different foundation from the ceremonial or ritual law. ...Every part of this law must remain in force upon all mankind and in all ages.
—JOHN WESLEY, Sermons on Several Occasions, 2-Vol. Edition, Vol. I, pages 221, 222.


This is Pastor Doug on the Ten Commandments, which is more than just the letter and why it covers all of God’s moral laws. If you listen you can get it straight from the horses mouth instead of a snippet, more than likely, out of context.

Ten Commandments | Amazing Facts

The Ten Commandments are suffering an identity crisis are they merely antiquated relic of an ancient culture, or do they still have meaning, purpose, and application for people living today? Pastor Doug Batchelor explores the amazing riches that can be mined from each and every commandment...

www.amazingfacts.org

And lets not forget the original allegation… that the Ten Commandments were not placed inside the ark of the covenant compared to the law of Moses placed outside the ark which as of yet no one has proved from scripture that is apparently in the video and listening to the first minute of the video they claim Moses wrote the Ten Commandments, when God said He did. Exodus 31:18 Exodus 32:16 Deut 4:13

This is from The amazing facts website:

13. Are God’s law and Moses’ law the same?
Answer: No—they are not the same. Study the following contrasts:

Moses’ law contained the temporary, ceremonial law of the Old Testament.

...but the Ten Commandments (God’s law) “stand fast forever and ever” (Psalm 111:8).

And then following that question there's this handy table that compares Moses's law with God's law. Here's some quotes from that section:
MOSES' LAW
Called "the law of Moses" (Luke 2:22).

GOD'S LAW
Called "the law of the Lord" (Isaiah 5:24).

Written in Stone! | Bible Study Guides | Amazing Facts

Why are the ten commandments written on stone? Have the commandments been changed? Are we still under the law? Does grace do away with the law?

www.amazingfacts.org

_________________
So, SB (or anyone else), do you agree with those things above? Do you agree with the things talked about on that amazing facts link? Is that what pastor Doug was saying?

Good to hear from you again

 

[Pavel Mosko]

Moses wrote the Ten Commandments, they were in Moses's handwriting on the outside of the ark.

Yes, they were written in two different places in Exodus and Deuteronomy, which also ties into "In the mouth of two or three witnesses" things are established, principle of both testaments.


Furthermore, if you pay attention, Myles Christian brings up that in Joshua 8:32 mentions them being written in stone too, for those instances where Adventists make a big deal out of that.


By the way, Doug Batchelor has preached a number of deceptive sermons. He is bent on trying to give SDA the same hip air of some Evangelical pastors like purpose driven Rick Warren, Calvary Chapel etc. Trying to act nonchalant on what they believe and teach. Both saying and implying that they don't put any extra evidence on things like Sabbath keeping than what the Bible says, and this is blatantly false if you pay attention to the official teaching of the Church from various official statements on the "Three Angels Message", "Investigative Judgement" and so on. The SDA most definitely believe Sabbath keeping is necessary for salvation in spite of Doug's Sermons to the contrary. This also can be demonstrated by some of White's visions like seeing a Halo around the Sabbath in a vision of the 10 commandments.


Anyway, this view is very problematic from a historic orthodox Christian perspective on doctrine. As I related to an SDA who was asking me about my position in a Facebook group (mostly for former Adventists and other Christians interested in SDA teaching (why I believe their teaching to be false and why etc.). I responded back by saying:

"...There are other issues that are more academic, but a closing point is just the unwieldy nature of declaring something as a mandatory teaching for Christianity when that was not something that the person (EGW) themselves believed in or practiced as a Christian until very recently! (When the prophetic message originally given). That and Adventists have never really addressed the Biblical foundations of why Christians are so invested in Sunday. Namely that was the day of the Resurrection, of the Holy Spirit being given to the Church, and even when saint John the Divine had his vision where the term "The Spirit of Prophecy" was originally received. This day also has foundations in Judaism with the different offering and festivals done on the 8th day, as well as the feast of Pentecost and it's symbolic meaning of symbolizing new beginning and creations etc. Do you got any idea how messed up it is that you make Sunday Worship the mark of the Beast when it can be shown in a few NT passages that believers worshiped on Sunday in the NT, and they named that day "the Lord's Day". The way Sunday is treated by SDA I do not think that White and the earlier Sabbatarians realized that but that is just a giant mark of ignorance as far as I'm concerned, and a good case can be made that any revelation that is based on this type of reasoning is in fact "The Spirit of Anti-Christ."

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Yes, they were written in two different places in Exodus and Deuteronomy, which also ties into "In the mouth of two or three witnesses" things are established, principle of both testaments.


Furthermore, if you pay attention, Myles Christian brings up that in Joshua 8:32 mentions them being written in stone too, for those instances where Adventists make a big deal out of that.

The reason they were written in two different places is because Moses broke the first one when the Israelites lost faith during the "delay" of Moses returning from Mt Sinai and the Israelites were sinning. There is significance in this and a principle for us....

That said God wrote the second set of the Ten Commandments with His finger that was exactly like the first set.

Deut 10:4 And He wrote on the tablets according to the first writing, the Ten Commandments, which the Lord had spoken to you in the mountain from the midst of the fire in the day of the assembly; and the Lord gave them to me.