Romans 7 and the Law of Sin

SabbathBlessings

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Rom.6:14,15, Rom.7:1,4,5,6, Rom.7:16,22 Rom.7:25 Rom.8:3,4. I guess an interesting thing is how the verse "love does no harm to its neighbour, therefore love is the fulfilling of the law" is viewed in two different ways according to who is telling the story. The correct view is that BECAUSE love does no harm, it is therefore the fulfilling of the law, that LOVE or 'to love' is in itself, to fulfill the law. This is the 'law of love' which comes with the Spirit of God who is love. The other (wrong) view is that this great quality of LOVE is only enacted or exhibited when the law is kept, by the keeping of the law. This subject is endless in argument, as are many others because there will aways be a right and a wrong view. Many are the scriptures which make this plain, especially where Paul says that to seek to justify by law is to be cut off from Christ. Romans 7 is contentious when it should not be because if you investigate the subject fully then it is obvious that Paul is speaking NOT as a Christian but as one under the law, the old covenant by which men are condemned as Paul said, that the law was the ministry of death, and the ministry of condemnation, which is why a new covenant had to be put in place and then explained to "those who know the law" (Rom.7:1) why this was the case, because by the law no one could be saved. Under the law I am a "wretched man" Rom.7:24. To be a bit cheeky, if we reverse a certain scripture it then reads 'but if you are NOT led by the Spirit then you ARE under the law'.
For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments 1 John 5:3

Love through obedience does no harm because true love to God does not sin (break God’s commandments) 1 John 3:4, Romans 7:7. Sin does harm because it separates us from God thats why the Law of the Lord is perfect for converting the soul Psalms 19:7.

All of God’s commandments are Truth Psalms 119:151 those who keep not the commandments there is no truth 1 John 2:3-5 so to say we can love our neighbor and love God but break His commandments is not a truthful teaching. Love to God is why you keep God’s commandants, therefore is the fulfillment of the law because the law is being kept through love, meaning your heart has changed through Jesus.
 
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HIM

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If I break the law it becomes to me the law of sin and death.
No that is not what Paul said. He tells us what the law of sin is in 7:21. He says that the law is that when he would do good evil is present, He then continues to say that he delights in the law of God, but he sees this OTHER law, the law that he says he found. That when he would do good evil is present with him. And this other law wars against the law of his mind, the law of God. The good that he would do but can't because evil is present with Him. And he calls it the Law of sin in verse 23.

Rom 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Rom 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
 
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GDL

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I guess an interesting thing is how the verse "love does no harm to its neighbour, therefore love is the fulfilling of the law" is viewed in two different ways according to who is telling the story. The correct view is that BECAUSE love does no harm, it is therefore the fulfilling of the law, that LOVE or 'to love' is in itself, to fulfill the law. This is the 'law of love' which comes with the Spirit of God who is love. The other (wrong) view is that this great quality of LOVE is only enacted or exhibited when the law is kept, by the keeping of the law
If you're still getting alerts from this thread, I'd like to discuss this quote from your post.

I'll lay out in outline what I see you saying, so I can organize what I'd like to put forth in response, which I'll italicize:
  1. ...the verse "love does no harm to its neighbour, therefore love is the fulfilling of the law" is viewed in two different ways according to who is telling the story:
    1. The correct view is that BECAUSE love does no harm, it is therefore the fulfilling of the law, that LOVE or 'to love' is in itself, to fulfill the law
    2. The other (wrong) view is that this great quality of LOVE is only enacted or exhibited when the law is kept, by the keeping of the law
So, I'm going to reorganize your "correct view" based upon what you've said. Please correct me if I'm wrong. I'm also going to be more literal with certain language in the Text and I'm using the BDAG Lexicon for definitions:
  1. Because love does not work evil to the neighbor
    1. love [is] fulfillment/sum total (BDAG) of law
Now, if we use only what you've stated, then you may have a point, but we know Rom13 says more in this instruction about love. So, I'm adding it and I'm going to phrase it as you have, using "because":
  1. Because love does not work evil to the neighbor
    1. love [is] fulfillment/sum total (BDAG) of law
  2. Because God’s Commandment to Love Neighbor sums-up the {you shall not commit adultery, you shall not murder, you shall not steal, you shall not perjure, you shall not covet, and if any other Commandment}
    1. The one who is loving another has fulfilled the law
Some observations:
  1. The reason I've {bundled} God's Commandments in #2 is because this is how the language of the Text seems to treat this grouping. It uses a single neuter article to identify all of the listed Commandments (5 of the 10C) and any other Commandment that can be summarized in the Love Neighbor Commandment of God from the Mosaic Law.
  2. The literal language of Rom13:10 is as I've shown it. It says ".,.does not work evil..."
  3. Rom13:8 (#2.1 above) is verbal & Rom13:9 (#2 above) is the explanatory clause for the verbal statement. So, the inference would seem to be that the one loving is doing the Commandments summed-up as Love Neighbor.
    1. This sounds a lot like what 1 John says about love for God is keeping His Commandments.
  4. I find the language interesting in Rom13:9 that speaks of "sums-up" compared to the language in Rom13:10 that can legitimately be translated as "sum total".
  5. The reason I've formatted these verses in this outline form is to show that I see some parallels.
    1. Parallel 1:
      1. Love does not work evil to the Neighbor
      2. God's summarized Commandments state how not to work evil - summarized as Love Neighbor
    2. Parallel 2:
      1. Love is fulfillment/sum total of law
      2. The one who is loving another has fulfilled law
    3. Rom13:8-9 seem to be saying the same thing as Rom13:10
IMO, you've stated what you see as a "correct view" while negating the entire instruction from all 3 verses, which I see as providing quite a bit of information you have not included.

IMO, you may be misrepresenting the "wrong view" you've stated. Based upon at minimum what I've outlined above, my current view is that of John's clear statement that Love for God is keeping His Commandments (1John5:3) and we know that we're loving others when we keep God's Commandments (1John5:2). Love for God and for others - and keeping God's Commandments are virtually one and the same thing. It's not about being justified by law. But it is about having the righteous requirement (can also be translated as the statute or ordinance) of the law being fulfilled in us if we walk in Spirit in Christ. In the process, we might be tested and deemed right when we do what He Commands, a.k.a when we Love. If we keep His Commandments, then we love. If we love as Commanded, then we are keeping His Commandments.

This is not the OC era of being under law with sin ruling us. This is the NC era where Paul's Law of the mind, in Christ, in Spirit can be lived out. If we look at the Commandments listed in the summary Commandment to Love Neighbor, and in our conscience that is being perfected in this era of the Great High Priesthood of Jesus Christ, and note that we are coveting, for example, we can view this as disobedience to God's Righteous Commandment or view it as a lack in Love that needs perfecting. Either way, it's the same thing.

IMO the real study is what is included in Paul's bundle of Commandments when he leaves us, as Jesus' Apostle, with "and if there is any other commandment."
 
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SabbathBlessings

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If you're still getting alerts from this thread, I'd like to discuss this quote from your post.

I'll lay out in outline what I see you saying, so I can organize what I'd like to put forth in response, which I'll italicize:
  1. ...the verse "love does no harm to its neighbour, therefore love is the fulfilling of the law" is viewed in two different ways according to who is telling the story:
    1. The correct view is that BECAUSE love does no harm, it is therefore the fulfilling of the law, that LOVE or 'to love' is in itself, to fulfill the law
    2. The other (wrong) view is that this great quality of LOVE is only enacted or exhibited when the law is kept, by the keeping of the law
So, I'm going to reorganize your "correct view" based upon what you've said. Please correct me if I'm wrong. I'm also going to be more literal with certain language in the Text and I'm using the BDAG Lexicon for definitions:
  1. Because love does not work evil to the neighbor
    1. love [is] fulfillment/sum total (BDAG) of law
Now, if we use only what you've stated, then you may have a point, but we know Rom13 says more in this instruction about love. So, I'm adding it and I'm going to phrase it as you have, using "because":
  1. Because love does not work evil to the neighbor
    1. love [is] fulfillment/sum total (BDAG) of law
  2. Because God’s Commandment to Love Neighbor sums-up the {you shall not commit adultery, you shall not murder, you shall not steal, you shall not perjure, you shall not covet, and if any other Commandment}
    1. The one who is loving another has fulfilled the law
Some observations:
  1. The reason I've {bundled} God's Commandments in #2 is because this is how the language of the Text seems to treat this grouping. It uses a single neuter article to identify all of the listed Commandments (5 of the 10C) and any other Commandment that can be summarized in the Love Neighbor Commandment of God from the Mosaic Law.
  2. The literal language of Rom13:10 is as I've shown it. It says ".,.does not work evil..."
  3. Rom13:8 (#2.1 above) is verbal & Rom13:9 (#2 above) is the explanatory clause for the verbal statement. So, the inference would seem to be that the one loving is doing the Commandments summed-up as Love Neighbor.
    1. This sounds a lot like what 1 John says about love for God is keeping His Commandments.
  4. I find the language interesting in Rom13:9 that speaks of "sums-up" compared to the language in Rom13:10 that can legitimately be translated as "sum total".
  5. The reason I've formatted these verses in this outline form is to show that I see some parallels.
    1. Parallel 1:
      1. Love does not work evil to the Neighbor
      2. God's summarized Commandments state how not to work evil - summarized as Love Neighbor
    2. Parallel 2:
      1. Love is fulfillment/sum total of law
      2. The one who is loving another has fulfilled law
    3. Rom13:8-9 seem to be saying the same thing as Rom13:10
IMO, you've stated what you see as a "correct view" while negating the entire instruction from all 3 verses, which I see as providing quite a bit of information you have not included.

IMO, you may be misrepresenting the "wrong view" you've stated. Based upon at minimum what I've outlined above, my current view is that of John's clear statement that Love for God is keeping His Commandments (1John5:3) and we know that we're loving others when we keep God's Commandments (1John5:2). Love for God and for others - and keeping God's Commandments are virtually one and the same thing. It's not about being justified by law. But it is about having the righteous requirement (can also be translated as the statute or ordinance) of the law being fulfilled in us if we walk in Spirit in Christ. In the process, we might be tested and deemed right when we do what He Commands, a.k.a when we Love. If we keep His Commandmnets, then we love. If we love as Commanded, then we are keeping His Commandments.

This is not the OC era of being under law with sin ruling us. This is the NC era where Paul's Law of the mind, in Christ, in Spirit can be lived out. If we look at the Commandments listed in the summary Commandment to Love Neighbor, and in our conscience that is being perfected in this era of the Great High Priesthood of Jesus Christ, and note that we are coveting, for example, we can view this as disobedience to God's Righteous Commandment or view it as a lack in Love that needs perfecting. Either way, it's the same thing.

IMO the real study is what is included in Paul's bundle of Commandments when he leaves us, as Jesus' Apostle, with "and if there is any other commandment."
This is a wonderful post and the only way to view and harmonize all of God's Word. How anyone can try to make the case we can break God's law and still love God or neighbor is not a biblical argument. Jesus said: If you love Me, keep My commandments a theme throughout the Word of God. Exodus 20:6, John 14:15, John 15:10 1 John 5:2-3
 
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expos4ever

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This is a wonderful post and the only way to view and harmonize all of God's Word. How anyone can try to make the case we can break God's law and still love God or neighbor is not a biblical argument. Jesus said: If you love Me, keep My commandments a theme throughout the Word of God. Exodus 20:6, John 14:15, John 15:10 1 John 5:2-3
You appear to simply assume the very thing that we have been discussing. That is, you assume the Law of Moses is still in force. Well, if that were true, then, yes, "we could not break the Law of Moses while still loving God or neighbour".

But an obvious fact, that some will deny, needs to be reiterated: if we have the indwelling Spirit, and the commands of Jesus (I will get to the relation of the commands of Jesus to the Law in a moment), we do not a law of any kind to guide our actions - the Spirit and the teachings of Jesus are enough.

Now then, about Jesus statement "if you love Me, keep my commandments": it would obviously, yet again, beg the very question at issue if one merely assumes that the dictates of the Law of Moses are part of the "commands of Jesus". One cannot simply assume this, yet many appear so to do. We all know that Jesus instructed people to keep the Law of Moses. But, and this point has been made repeatedly, if the Law of Moses only ends at the cross, it is perfectly sensible for Jesus to command His contemporaries to follow it.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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You appear to simply assume the very thing that we have been discussing. That is, you assume the Law of Moses is still in force. Well, if that were true, then, yes, "we could not break the Law of Moses while still loving God or neighbour".

But an obvious fact, that some will deny, needs to be reiterated: if we have the indwelling Spirit, and the commands of Jesus (I will get to the relation of the commands of Jesus to the Law in a moment), we do not a law of any kind to guide our actions - the Spirit and the teachings of Jesus are enough.

Now then, about Jesus statement "if you love Me, keep my commandments": it would obviously, yet again, beg the very question at issue if one merely assumes that the dictates of the Law of Moses are part of the "commands of Jesus".

You seem to be of the mindset that the Holy Spirit and the law of God are somehow in conflict, but instead it is those who are carnally minded- living in the flesh (sin- the transgression of God's law) 1 John 3:4, Romans 7:7 object to God's law, not those walking in harmony with the Spirit which leads us to keep God's commandments, not break them. John 14:15-18 Acts 5:32

Romans 8: 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

This verse should really stop anyone in their tracks objecting to God's law. There is an adversary of God who objects to keeping His commandments Revelation 12:17 and by our choices we decide which side we are on.... one path leads to condemnation, the other to righteousness Romans 6:16 but the path we choose is of our own making.

One cannot simply assume this, yet many appear so to do. We all know that Jesus instructed people to keep the Law of Moses. But, and this point has been made repeatedly, if the Law of Moses only ends at the cross, it is perfectly sensible for Jesus to command His contemporaries to follow it.
There is no conflict between Jesus and God's commandments as they are one in the same John 15:10, Jesus came to do God's will John 6:38 and came to magnify the law Isaiah 42:21

Jesus condemns those who do not keep the commandments of God quoting right from the Ten Commandments Matthew 15:3-9 which He taught often on and reminds us that those who do not believe Moses- do not believe Him. John 5:46
 
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GDL

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This is a wonderful post and the only way to view and harmonize all of God's Word. How anyone can try to make the case we can break God's law and still love God or neighbor is not a biblical argument. Jesus said: If you love Me, keep My commandments a theme throughout the Word of God. Exodus 20:6, John 14:15, John 15:10 1 John 5:2-3
Thank you for reviewing it. I appreciate another set of eyes - another mind. The verses and structure are clear. But even the very basic reality of a summary statement including what it summarizes is clear. I agree with your follow-up comments. It takes a lot of work to negate the details of the summary. I've grown more and more wary of the antinomian point of view over the years. It's really a problem.
 
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expos4ever

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You seem to be of the mindset that the Holy Spirit and the law of God are somehow in conflict,
I don't think so. You might have an argument if it were not otherwise scripturally clear that the Law has been retired. We know - this is a fact- the following:

- The Law prescribes that one goes to the temple to get your sins forgiven.
- Jesus tells us He, not the Temple, is the place to go for this.

And even more clearly, we have this from Paul:

But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the [h]Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

I have no idea how you can possibly explain how these words from Paul do not indicate the end of the Law of Moses.
 
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expos4ever

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You seem to be of the mindset that the Holy Spirit and the law of God are somehow in conflict, but instead it is those who are carnally minded- living in the flesh (sin- the transgression of God's law) 1 John 3:4, Romans 7:7 object to God's law, not those walking in harmony with the Spirit which leads us to keep God's commandments, not break them. John 14:15-18 Acts 5:32
I will continue to point out this blatant misrepresentation of 1 John 3:4. The fact that you guys repeatedly manipulate 1 John 3:4 to suit your purposes must not remain unchallenged. Here is 1 John 3:4 in Youngs Literal Translation:

Every one who is doing the sin, the lawlessness also he doth do, and the sin is the lawlessness

There is, of course, no specificity here to the Law of Moses - one can certainly be lawless in the absence of the Law of Moses. After all, Jew who lived before the Law was given were sinners and lawless.

Again, these are indisputable facts. Which you certainly appear to reject.

Biblically, the simple notion that "sin = transgression of the Law of Moses", and that by implication that sin cannot be defined in any other way is so obviously unBiblical, it is hard to imagine how, exactly, you justify your position on this matter.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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I don't think so. You might have an argument if it were not otherwise scripturally clear that the Law has been retired. We know - this is a fact- the following:

- The Law prescribes that one goes to the temple to get your sins forgiven.
- Jesus tells us He, not the Temple, is the place to go for this.

And even more clearly, we have this from Paul:

But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the [h]Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

I have no idea how you can possibly explain how these words from Paul do not indicate the end of the Law of Moses.
We are in the New Covenant now and Jesus is our Mediator and High Priest who ministers from the heavenly Temple Hebrews 8:2 because the earthy temple was just a miniature of God's Heavenly Temple, where He dwells. The Ten Commandments are in the Most Holy of God's Temple and is in heaven. Revelation 11:19 and we are told blessed are those who DO His commandments, they may enter through the gates and be reconciled with God. Revelation 22:14 this is not done to be saved, but done because the saints have been changed by Jesus from the inside out and keeping God's law is the fruit of ones faith. Revelation 14:12 Romans 3:31

There is a warning in scripture about those who misinterpret Paul to their own destruction and Paul is not contradicting himself here when he also teaches what matters is keeping the commandments of God 1 Cor 7:19 so either Paul has no idea what he is teaching and says things that are in conflict with himself, God and Jesus or perhaps there's some misunderstands of Paul's teaching regarding the law. We are released from the condemnation of the law- the wage of sin is death, if we are in Christ walking in His Spirit through faith which upholds the law Romans 3:31 Acts 5:32

If the law was done away with we would not need grace and if we do not need grace than we no longer need a Savior. Who do you think wants God's law done away with so we no longer reply on Jesus- it is certainly not a teaching in God's Word. Sin is what separated us from God, sin is the transgression of the law 1 John 3:4 and Paul points right to the 10 Commandments to define sin. Romans 7:7 When we remove God's law we are removing the character of God and essentially removing God and instead relying on self-law. We cannot save or sanctify ourselves, we do so through the Truth of God's Word and all of God's commandments are Truth Psalms 119:151 and those who keep not His commandments, there is no Truth. 1 John 2:3-4. You might want to reconsider your stance on this important topic.
 
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