Romans 7 and the Law of Sin

[Soyeong]

It's a fine line because Gnostics also make a distinction between spirit and soul, and the physical and the spiritual, and they believed originally that all things physical, including the flesh, were evil. But they take this distinction way too far and thereby reason that anything done with or in the flesh is separate from the spirit: and thus they teach something almost akin to two different entity-aspects of a human being. What they do according to the flesh and in the flesh therefore they count as irrelevant because they say that the flesh is evil anyway, and will perish, meanwhile thinking they have some sort of holy spirit entity, (I mean of their own, themselves), which communes with God or God's Holy Spirit, and therefore what they do with and in the flesh doesn't matter because they have a spirit that communes with God while the soul is counted almost as if a throwaway source of evil that is doomed to perish anyway. This, of course, is catastrophic error.

I've said nothing along those lines.

The idea that Paul is teaching that with the flesh he serves the nomos of sin becomes the same reasoning if you say that the nomos of sin is an evil inclination: for Paul does in fact state that with the flesh he serves the nomos of sin. If the nomos of sin is an evil inclination then Paul would be saying that with the flesh he serves the evil inclination, and that is indeed Gnostic thinking and reasoning.

Please interact with Romans 7:13-24 to explain how it Is inaccurate to describe what Paul described as the law of sin as being an evil inclination. For example, the law of sin was causing him not to do the good that the wanted to do and to keep on doing the evil that he did not want. Also, even if we do not describe the law of sin as the evil inclination, please explain why you do not consider what he described as the law sin to be referring to Gnosticism.

Moreover, to be honest with the text, simply insert Torah or torah for nomos, (law), and you may see that it cannot be what you have proposed if you are honest with the text.

Romans 7:25 TS2009
25 Thanks to Elohim, through יהושע Messiah our Master! So then, with the mind I myself truly serve the Torah of Elohim, but with the flesh the torah of sin.

This translator is not willing to be dishonest with the text, but does place the second instance of torah in lower case. Can you call the second mention of torah an evil inclination? That would not be right judgment imo. Here is another translation that typically renders Torah instead of Law where nomos is found, but look what they do in this passage:

Romans 7:25 HRB2012
25 I thank YAHWEH through Yahshua Messiah our Master! So then I myself with the mind truly serve the Torah of Elohim and with the flesh the law of sin.

Is that a fair treatment of the text? rendering nomos as "Torah" in one case and then switching it to "law" in the next occurrence in the same statement? No, imo, that is not a fair treatment of the text.

There is nothing about having different views for how to translate Romans 7:25 that calls someone's honesty into question. In Romans 7, Paul was contrasting serving the Law of God with serving the law of sin, so there is nothing wrong with someone choosing to capitalize "Torah of Elohim" in recognition of its significance and to not capitalize "torah of sin" as referring to something else. While "Torah" mean "instruction" or "law", it generally is specifically used to mean "Law of God", so there is nothing wrong with translating "nomos" as "law" when it is referring to something in contrast with the Torah of God. There is also nothing about choosing to translate it as "torah of sin" that would be incompatible with what I've said, so you're still not explaining why it would be wrong to describe the law of sin as an evil inclination or why describing it as such is perverting what Paul said.

I myself also found a torah-teaching concerning sin, just as Paul did: and I found that teaching and instruction in the Torah, but the Torah is not only for showing us what sin is: it is so much more than that. So there is Torah of Elohim, which is of the mind and of above, and there is also Torah of sin, (and death), concerning that which is of below, the flesh, and it is used to mortify or put to death the deeds of the body and our members upon the earth, (of below).

The law of sin was causing Paul not to do the good that he wanted to do and to continue to do the evil that he did not want to do.

 

[daq]

I've said nothing along those lines.


Please interact with Romans 7:13-24 to explain how it Is inaccurate to describe what Paul described as the law of sin as being an evil inclination. For example, the law of sin was causing him not to do the good that the wanted to do and to keep on doing the evil that he did not want. Also, even if we do not describe the law of sin as the evil inclination, please explain why you do not consider what he described as the law sin to be referring to Gnosticism.


There is nothing about having different views for how to translate Romans 7:25 that calls someone's honesty into question. In Romans 7, Paul was contrasting serving the Law of God with serving the law of sin, so there is nothing wrong with someone choosing to capitalize "Torah of Elohim" in recognition of its significance and to not capitalize "torah of sin" as referring to something else. While "Torah" mean "instruction" or "law", it generally is specifically used to mean "Law of God", so there is nothing wrong with translating "nomos" as "law" when it is referring to something in contrast with the Torah of God. There is also nothing about choosing to translate it as "torah of sin" that would be incompatible with what I've said, so you're still not explaining why it would be wrong to describe the law of sin as an evil inclination or why describing it as such is perverting what Paul said.


The law of sin was causing Paul not to do the good that he wanted to do and to continue to do the evil that he did not want to do.

Duly noted.

 

[HIM]

All this hemming and hawing is meaningless while the elephant in the room remains: which is why I went straight to that to begin with. As I said, believe what you will, but it is never going to change the fact that Paul says that with the flesh he serves the nomos of sin.

And as he said, he was set free from the law of sin, the law that evil is ever present with him that the righteousness of the law of God be fulfilled in us who walk after the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus and not after the flesh where sin had been condemned. The elephant has been slain.

 

[Cornelius8L]

The law of sin and death mentioned in Romans 8:2 is not the Old Testament law.

(Romans 8:3) “For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful man, as an offering for sin.”​

What is this law?

 

[HIM]

(Romans 8:3) “For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful man, as an offering for sin.”​

What is this law?

Law of God which is the law that he served with his mind but could not with his flesh until Christ condemned sin in the flesh that the righteousness of the Law be performed in us who walk after the Spirit of the life in Christ Jesus and not after the flesh.

Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

 

[Cornelius8L]

Law of God which is the law that he served with his mind but could not with his flesh until Christ condemned sin in the flesh that the righteousness of the Law be performed in us who walk after the Spirit of the life in Christ Jesus and not after the flesh.

Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

So why does the ‘law of God (Which is law of the Spirit)’ that was powerless and weakened by the flesh has to do with God sent His son as offering for sin?

Romans 8:3 is actually reflecting Romans 7:1-6, which talk about how the law changed because the husband died.

 

[HIM]

So why does the ‘law of God (Which is law of the Spirit)’

It is not and it is the Law of the Spirit of life IN Christ Jesus not the Law of the Spirit that enables us to fulfill the Law, the Law of God when we walk after this Spirit and not after the flesh.

 

[expos4ever]

(Romans 8:3) “For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful man, as an offering for sin.”​

What is this law?

Obviously, to me, this has to be the Law of Moses. And I think that Paul is indeed talking about the Law of Moses in Romans 7, although he also speaks of another law as well. In short, I believe that Paul is arguing that while the Law of Moses is a good thing in itself, God actually uses it to make Israel more sinful, not less. This is an argument from British theologian NT Wright. More later, I hope.

 

[Cornelius8L]

So why does the ‘law of God (Which is law of the Spirit)’ that was powerless and weakened by the flesh has to do with God sent His son as offering for sin?

It is not and it is the Law of the Spirit of life IN Christ Jesus not the Law of the Spirit that enables us to fulfill the Law, the Law of God when we walk after this Spirit and not after the flesh.

So the law of God that Paul spoke of is not the law of the spirit of life in Christ? So, do you mean there are two laws from God? (i) law of God, and (ii) the law of the spirit of life?

 

[expos4ever]

Law of God which is the law that he served with his mind but could not with his flesh until Christ condemned sin in the flesh that the righteousness of the Law be performed in us who walk after the Spirit of the life in Christ Jesus and not after the flesh.

Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

We are throwing around a lot of "versions" of that the term "law" means at various points in Romans 7 and 8. And I am quite sure I do not understand what some of you are saying. However, here is my take on this text from Romans:

First, the "Law of God" in verses 22 and 25 is simply the Law of Moses (i.e., the Torah) as documented in the Pentateuch. That is the easy part, in my opinion.

Second, Paul wants to obey the Law of Moses, but he discerns a problem: there is "something" going on inside him that prevents him from obeying the Law of Moses. Somewhat confusingly, he calls this "something" a law, in particular a law of sin. But, in my opinion, this is just a figure of speech, he is not really talking about a "law" in the sense we normally use the term.

I believe that Paul's basic argument is that while the Law of Moses is a good thing, humans cannot successfully follow it in an unregenerate state since the unregenerate are still in the fallen Adamic condition. And, yes, I am effectively claiming that in this chunk of verses at least, Paul is talking about his state pre-conversion. And, yes, I realize that he is using the present tense and this, at least on a superficial analysis, is evidence against this claim that Paul is describing his pre-conversion state. I hope to provide a fuller defence of my position later.

But, to loop back, based on the whole chapter, in particular verses that precede the ones listed above, I think it is really quite clear that the "Law of God" here is simply the Law of Moses.

 

[Cornelius8L]

As an analogy, human's life has two stages: childhood and adulthood. The "human life" represents the law of God, the "child" phrase is the "old convenant" law, and the "adult" phrase is the "new convenant." Both the child and the adult are the same person. But sin lied to that person and said, "You are a child," even after that person had grown up.

 

[HIM]

So the law of God that Paul spoke of is not the law of the spirit of life in Christ? So, do you mean there are two laws from God? (i) law of God, and (ii) the law of the spirit of life?

The Law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus is us living through Jesus because of His resurrection. Through this he enables us to fulfill the righteousness of the Law of God because we are no longer in captivity to the law of sin, not being able to do the good we would because evil is present with us.

 

[HIM]

We are throwing around a lot of "versions" of that the term "law" means at various points in Romans 7 and 8. And I am quite sure I do not understand what some of you are saying. However, here is my take on this text from Romans:

First, the "Law of God" in verses 22 and 25 is simply the Law of Moses (i.e., the Torah) as documented in the Pentateuch. That is the easy part, in my opinion.

Second, Paul wants to obey the Law of Moses, but he discerns a problem: there is "something" going on inside him that prevents him from obeying the Law of Moses. Somewhat confusingly, he calls this "something" a law, in particular a law of sin. But, in my opinion, this is just a figure of speech, he is not really talking about a "law" in the sense we normally use the term.

I believe that Paul's basic argument is that while the Law of Moses is a good thing, humans cannot successfully follow it in an unregenerate state since the unregenerate are still in the fallen Adamic condition. And, yes, I am effectively claiming that in this chunk of verses at least, Paul is talking about his state pre-conversion. And, yes, I realize that he is using the present tense and this, at least on a superficial analysis, is evidence against this claim that Paul is describing his pre-conversion state. I hope to provide a fuller defence of my position later.

But, to loop back, based on the whole chapter, in particular verses that precede the ones listed above, I think it is really quite clear that the "Law of God" here is simply the Law of Moses.

The Law of Moses, the Book of the Law is the Law of God and the law mentioned in Romans 7 and 8.

Romans 8:2-4 tells us that Paul (we) have been set free from the Law of sin, not being able to the good that we would, but the evil we wouldn't we do because evil is present with us. Through the Law of the Spirit of the Life in Christ Jesus we walk in newness of Life through Christ because our old man is dead, sin is condemned in the flesh and the righteousness of the law, the Law of God, the Book of the Law, the Law of Moses is fulfilled in us. No longer servants, slaves of sin unto death but servants of righteousness unto life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

[HIM]

Obviously, to me, this has to be the Law of Moses. And I think that Paul is indeed talking about the Law of Moses in Romans 7, although he also speaks of another law as well. In short, I believe that Paul is arguing that while the Law of Moses is a good thing in itself, God actually uses it to make Israel more sinful, not less. This is an argument from British theologian NT Wright. More later, I hope.

Never heard of him. Thanks for clarifying your position in your last post.

 

[kayne]

The law of sin and death mentioned in Romans 8:2 is not the Old Testament law. First it is two things mention in that clause. The first is the Law of Sin. The second is the result of this Law. And that is death.

Paul states in verse Romans 7:21 that he found a Law. The previous verses in chapter 7 tell us what this Law is. In verse 19 he says he can't help himself but to do the evil that he doesn't want to do. And that it is no longer him that does but the sin that dwells in him in verse 20. Verse 22 Paul makes a declaration. He states that He delights in the Law of God. Then in verse 23 making a distinction between the Law of God (the Ten Commandments and other moral Laws mentioned in the Old Testament) He calls this Law that he mentioned in verse 21 another Law. And then gives it a name. He calls it the Law of sin. And then Paul continues crying out due to recognizing his condition, "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?"

This Law of Sin, not being able to do the good we would, but the evil we would not this we do, is what the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus has set us free from. So that the righteousness of the Law. The Law of God be fulfilled in us who walk after the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus and not after the flesh. Hence Jesus' words in John 8:34-36. Where He said, He that commits sin is a servant to it. And if the Son shall make you free from this servitude, then free we are indeed. And Paul's previous discourse in chapter 3 and 6, where he said Faith establishes the Law. And that we are free from sin because we are dead to sin through the death of Christ. And through His resurrection we walk in newness of life because we are alive unto God and through Him we are servants unto righteousness. This is the righteousness of faith and what it speaks. So say not in your heart, bring Christ down from above or up from the deep. For the Word is in our hearts and mouths that we do it. That is the faith in which we preach.

Amen and praise You Father God in heaven for releasing us from the body of sin and death that worketh in our members.

Rom 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Rom 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Rom 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Rom 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

John 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
John 8:35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
John 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

We can never learn if we think we are learnt. Lord we believe help our unbelief! For you give us all things that pertain to life and godliness. For it is You that works in us to will and do Your good pleasure.

If I break the law it becomes to me the law of sin and death.

 

[kayne]

The law of sin and death mentioned in Romans 8:2 is not the Old Testament law. First it is two things mention in that clause. The first is the Law of Sin. The second is the result of this Law. And that is death.

Paul states in verse Romans 7:21 that he found a Law. The previous verses in chapter 7 tell us what this Law is. In verse 19 he says he can't help himself but to do the evil that he doesn't want to do. And that it is no longer him that does but the sin that dwells in him in verse 20. Verse 22 Paul makes a declaration. He states that He delights in the Law of God. Then in verse 23 making a distinction between the Law of God (the Ten Commandments and other moral Laws mentioned in the Old Testament) He calls this Law that he mentioned in verse 21 another Law. And then gives it a name. He calls it the Law of sin. And then Paul continues crying out due to recognizing his condition, "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?"

This Law of Sin, not being able to do the good we would, but the evil we would not this we do, is what the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus has set us free from. So that the righteousness of the Law. The Law of God be fulfilled in us who walk after the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus and not after the flesh. Hence Jesus' words in John 8:34-36. Where He said, He that commits sin is a servant to it. And if the Son shall make you free from this servitude, then free we are indeed. And Paul's previous discourse in chapter 3 and 6, where he said Faith establishes the Law. And that we are free from sin because we are dead to sin through the death of Christ. And through His resurrection we walk in newness of life because we are alive unto God and through Him we are servants unto righteousness. This is the righteousness of faith and what it speaks. So say not in your heart, bring Christ down from above or up from the deep. For the Word is in our hearts and mouths that we do it. That is the faith in which we preach.

Amen and praise You Father God in heaven for releasing us from the body of sin and death that worketh in our members.

Rom 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Rom 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Rom 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Rom 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

John 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
John 8:35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
John 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

We can never learn if we think we are learnt. Lord we believe help our unbelief! For you give us all things that pertain to life and godliness. For it is You that works in us to will and do Your good pleasure.

In verse 7:25 "the law of sin" is that same "law of sin" which we are set free from in 8:2. And we are not set free prior to chapter 8.

 

[kayne]

We are throwing around a lot of "versions" of that the term "law" means at various points in Romans 7 and 8. And I am quite sure I do not understand what some of you are saying. However, here is my take on this text from Romans:

First, the "Law of God" in verses 22 and 25 is simply the Law of Moses (i.e., the Torah) as documented in the Pentateuch. That is the easy part, in my opinion.

Second, Paul wants to obey the Law of Moses, but he discerns a problem: there is "something" going on inside him that prevents him from obeying the Law of Moses. Somewhat confusingly, he calls this "something" a law, in particular a law of sin. But, in my opinion, this is just a figure of speech, he is not really talking about a "law" in the sense we normally use the term.

I believe that Paul's basic argument is that while the Law of Moses is a good thing, humans cannot successfully follow it in an unregenerate state since the unregenerate are still in the fallen Adamic condition. And, yes, I am effectively claiming that in this chunk of verses at least, Paul is talking about his state pre-conversion. And, yes, I realize that he is using the present tense and this, at least on a superficial analysis, is evidence against this claim that Paul is describing his pre-conversion state. I hope to provide a fuller defence of my position later.

But, to loop back, based on the whole chapter, in particular verses that precede the ones listed above, I think it is really quite clear that the "Law of God" here is simply the Law of Moses.

Correct.

 

[kayne]

Firstly it should be understood that Paul is NOT speaking as a Christian but as one under the law (which Christians are not under). Then it has to be explained how Paul could be a Christian when according to verse 7:24 he had never heard of Christ. In 7:25 natural man under (the) law has his mind aligned with God but the law of sin in his flesh (still himself) has power to overthrow the wishful thinking of his mind 7:23. Then in 8:2 the Spirit sets us free from that law of sin of 7:25.

 

[Soyeong]

If I break the law it becomes to me the law of sin and death.

In Romana 7:2-8:2, Paul contrasted the Law of God with the law of sin and contrasted the Law of the Spirit of Life with the law of sin and death. He did not say that if we break the Law of God, then it becomes to us the law of sin and death, but rather he said that the Law of God is good and that he wanted to do good, but described the law of sin as something that was working within his members to cause him not to do the good that he wanted to do. So it is correct that we are not under the law of sin, but we are still under the Law of God because being under grace does not mean that we are permitted to sin, and sin is the transgression of the Law of God (1 John 3:4). Furthermore, in Psalms 119:29, David wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, so that is what it means to be under grace. Christ set a sinless example for us to follow of how to walk in obedience to the Law of God, and we are told to follow his example of refraining from sin (1 Peter 2:21-22), so it would be contradictory for someone to want to be a follower of Christ while not considering themselves to be under the Law of God.

 

[kayne]

Rom.6:14,15, Rom.7:1,4,5,6, Rom.7:16,22 Rom.7:25 Rom.8:3,4. I guess an interesting thing is how the verse "love does no harm to its neighbour, therefore love is the fulfilling of the law" is viewed in two different ways according to who is telling the story. The correct view is that BECAUSE love does no harm, it is therefore the fulfilling of the law, that LOVE or 'to love' is in itself, to fulfill the law. This is the 'law of love' which comes with the Spirit of God who is love. The other (wrong) view is that this great quality of LOVE is only enacted or exhibited when the law is kept, by the keeping of the law. This subject is endless in argument, as are many others because there will aways be a right and a wrong view. Many are the scriptures which make this plain, especially where Paul says that to seek to justify by law is to be cut off from Christ. Romans 7 is contentious when it should not be because if you investigate the subject fully then it is obvious that Paul is speaking NOT as a Christian but as one under the law, the old covenant by which men are condemned as Paul said, that the law was the ministry of death, and the ministry of condemnation, which is why a new covenant had to be put in place and then explained to "those who know the law" (Rom.7:1) why this was the case, because by the law no one could be saved. Under the law I am a "wretched man" Rom.7:24. To be a bit cheeky, if we reverse a certain scripture it then reads 'but if you are NOT led by the Spirit then you ARE under the law'.