Romans 7 and the Law of Sin

[HIM]

The law of sin and death mentioned in Romans 8:2 is not the Old Testament law. First it is two things mention in that clause. The first is the Law of Sin. The second is the result of this Law. And that is death.

Paul states in verse Romans 7:21 that he found a Law. The previous verses in chapter 7 tell us what this Law is. In verse 19 he says he can't help himself but to do the evil that he doesn't want to do. And that it is no longer him that does but the sin that dwells in him in verse 20. Verse 22 Paul makes a declaration. He states that He delights in the Law of God. Then in verse 23 making a distinction between the Law of God (the Ten Commandments and other moral Laws mentioned in the Old Testament) He calls this Law that he mentioned in verse 21 another Law. And then gives it a name. He calls it the Law of sin. And then Paul continues crying out due to recognizing his condition, "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?"

This Law of Sin, not being able to do the good we would, but the evil we would not this we do, is what the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus has set us free from. So that the righteousness of the Law. The Law of God be fulfilled in us who walk after the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus and not after the flesh. Hence Jesus' words in John 8:34-36. Where He said, He that commits sin is a servant to it. And if the Son shall make you free from this servitude, then free we are indeed. And Paul's previous discourse in chapter 3 and 6, where he said Faith establishes the Law. And that we are free from sin because we are dead to sin through the death of Christ. And through His resurrection we walk in newness of life because we are alive unto God and through Him we are servants unto righteousness. This is the righteousness of faith and what it speaks. So say not in your heart, bring Christ down from above or up from the deep. For the Word is in our hearts and mouths that we do it. That is the faith in which we preach.

Amen and praise You Father God in heaven for releasing us from the body of sin and death that worketh in our members.

Rom 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Rom 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Rom 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Rom 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

John 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
John 8:35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
John 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

We can never learn if we think we are learnt. Lord we believe help our unbelief! For you give us all things that pertain to life and godliness. For it is You that works in us to will and do Your good pleasure.

 

[daq]

O wretched man that I am: who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank Elohim, for it is through the Testimony of Meshiah our Master. So then, with the mind I serve the torah-nomos-teaching of Elohim: but with the flesh (ellipsis, I serve) the torah-nomos-teaching of sin (and death). The Torah of Elohim is of above, that is, Horeb. The Torah-Instruction concerning sin, and putting to death sin in our members, concerns the things of below, that is, Sinai.

 

[BobRyan]

The law of sin and death mentioned in Romans 8:2 is not the Old Testament law. First it is two things mention in that clause. The first is the Law of Sin. The second is the result of this Law. And that is death.

Paul states in verse Romans 7:21 that he found a Law. The previous verses in chapter 7 tell us what this Law is. In verse 19 he says he can't help himself but to do the evil that he doesn't want to do. And that it is no longer him that does but the sin that dwells in him in verse 20. Verse 22 Paul makes a declaration. He states that He delights in the Law of God. Then in verse 23 making a distinction between the Law of God (the Ten Commandments and other moral Laws mentioned in the Old Testament) He calls this Law that he mentioned in verse 21 another Law. And then gives it a name. He calls it the Law of sin. And then Paul continues crying out due to recognizing his condition, "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?"

This Law of Sin, not being able to do the good we would, but the evil we would not this we do, is what the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus has set us free from. So that the righteousness of the Law. The Law of God be fulfilled in us who walk after the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus and not after the flesh. Hence Jesus' words in John 8:34-36. Where He said, He that commits sin is a servant to it. And if the Son shall make you free from this servitude, then free we are indeed. And Paul's previous discourse in chapter 3 and 6, where he said Faith establishes the Law. And that we are free from sin because we are dead to sin through the death of Christ. And through His resurrection we walk in newness of life because we are alive unto God and through Him we are servants unto righteousness. This is the righteousness of faith and what it speaks. So say not in your heart, bring Christ down from above or up from the deep. For the Word is in our hearts and mouths that we do it. That is the faith in which we preach.

Amen and praise You Father God in heaven for releasing us from the body of sin and death that worketh in our members.

Rom 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Rom 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Rom 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Rom 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

John 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
John 8:35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
John 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

We can never learn if we think we are learnt. Lord we believe help our unbelief! For you give us all things that pertain to life and godliness. For it is You that works in us to will and do Your good pleasure.

amen! - very good post

 

[Leaf473]

The law of sin and death mentioned in Romans 8:2 is not the Old Testament law. First it is two things mention in that clause. The first is the Law of Sin. The second is the result of this Law. And that is death.

Paul states in verse Romans 7:21 that he found a Law. The previous verses in chapter 7 tell us what this Law is. In verse 19 he says he can't help himself but to do the evil that he doesn't want to do. And that it is no longer him that does but the sin that dwells in him in verse 20. Verse 22 Paul makes a declaration. He states that He delights in the Law of God. Then in verse 23 making a distinction between the Law of God (the Ten Commandments and other moral Laws mentioned in the Old Testament) He calls this Law that he mentioned in verse 21 another Law. And then gives it a name. He calls it the Law of sin. And then Paul continues crying out due to recognizing his condition, "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?"

This Law of Sin, not being able to do the good we would, but the evil we would not this we do, is what the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus has set us free from. So that the righteousness of the Law. The Law of God be fulfilled in us who walk after the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus and not after the flesh. Hence Jesus' words in John 8:34-36. Where He said, He that commits sin is a servant to it. And if the Son shall make you free from this servitude, then free we are indeed. And Paul's previous discourse in chapter 3 and 6, where he said Faith establishes the Law. And that we are free from sin because we are dead to sin through the death of Christ. And through His resurrection we walk in newness of life because we are alive unto God and through Him we are servants unto righteousness. This is the righteousness of faith and what it speaks. So say not in your heart, bring Christ down from above or up from the deep. For the Word is in our hearts and mouths that we do it. That is the faith in which we preach.

Amen and praise You Father God in heaven for releasing us from the body of sin and death that worketh in our members.

Rom 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Rom 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Rom 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Rom 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

John 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
John 8:35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
John 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

We can never learn if we think we are learnt. Lord we believe help our unbelief! For you give us all things that pertain to life and godliness. For it is You that works in us to will and do Your good pleasure.

If the idea is that we are to still do the law of God, and if the law of God is the same as the law of the Lord, then this passage that I just came across this morning may be relevant:

"and to offer a sacrifice according to that which is said in the law of the Lord, “A pair of turtledoves, or two young pigeons."
Luke 2

 

[Soyeong]

The law of sin and death mentioned in Romans 8:2 is not the Old Testament law. First it is two things mention in that clause. The first is the Law of Sin. The second is the result of this Law. And that is death.

Paul states in verse Romans 7:21 that he found a Law. The previous verses in chapter 7 tell us what this Law is. In verse 19 he says he can't help himself but to do the evil that he doesn't want to do. And that it is no longer him that does but the sin that dwells in him in verse 20. Verse 22 Paul makes a declaration. He states that He delights in the Law of God. Then in verse 23 making a distinction between the Law of God (the Ten Commandments and other moral Laws mentioned in the Old Testament) He calls this Law that he mentioned in verse 21 another Law. And then gives it a name. He calls it the Law of sin. And then Paul continues crying out due to recognizing his condition, "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?"

This Law of Sin, not being able to do the good we would, but the evil we would not this we do, is what the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus has set us free from. So that the righteousness of the Law. The Law of God be fulfilled in us who walk after the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus and not after the flesh. Hence Jesus' words in John 8:34-36. Where He said, He that commits sin is a servant to it. And if the Son shall make you free from this servitude, then free we are indeed. And Paul's previous discourse in chapter 3 and 6, where he said Faith establishes the Law. And that we are free from sin because we are dead to sin through the death of Christ. And through His resurrection we walk in newness of life because we are alive unto God and through Him we are servants unto righteousness. This is the righteousness of faith and what it speaks. So say not in your heart, bring Christ down from above or up from the deep. For the Word is in our hearts and mouths that we do it. That is the faith in which we preach.

Amen and praise You Father God in heaven for releasing us from the body of sin and death that worketh in our members.

Rom 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Rom 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Rom 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Rom 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

John 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
John 8:35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
John 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

We can never learn if we think we are learnt. Lord we believe help our unbelief! For you give us all things that pertain to life and godliness. For it is You that works in us to will and do Your good pleasure.

Good post, though I would add that the other moral laws mentioned in the OT should be understood as referring to all of the laws that God has commanded in the OT. To suggest that any of them them are not moral laws is to suggest that they are moral to disobey, but there is no example in the Bible of disobedience to any of God's laws being considered to be moral. Morality is in regard to what we ought to do and we ought to obey God, so all of God's laws are inherently moral laws.

 

[Blade]

Mans righteousness is as rages. As Christ told them "you being evil know how to give good gifts to your children how much more will your Father in heaven give the holy Spirit to them that ask.". Not what I wanted to say but I always noticed how in one sentence He called them.. being evil and your Father in heaven. Anyway.

When Christ walked this earth did He not tell some "go and sin no more". So there is no one that has the right to control us. We don't have to sin. Even if we never sinned we are still born into sin fallen and need a savior PRAISE GOD GLORY TO JESUS for dying for the world. Why leave out Rom6:8 "You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.". That's right sin no longer has hold on us unless we allow it. This flesh loves to sin yet it has no right to control us. Whom the son sets free is free indeed.

 

[HIM]

O wretched man that I am: who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank Elohim, for it is through the Testimony of Meshiah our Master. So then, with the mind I serve the torah-nomos-teaching of Elohim: but with the flesh (ellipsis, I serve) the torah-nomos-teaching of sin (and death). The Torah of Elohim is of above, that is, Horeb. The Torah-Instruction concerning sin, and putting to death sin in our members, concerns the things of below, that is, Sinai.

That is not what Romans 7 is about. Subjective points were made in the OP concerning context.

 

[HIM]

Good post, though I would add that the other moral laws mentioned in the OT should be understood as referring to all of the laws that God has commanded in the OT. To suggest that any of them them are not moral laws is to suggest that they are moral to disobey, but there is no example in the Bible of disobedience to any of God's laws being considered to be moral. Morality is in regard to what we ought to do and we ought to obey God, so all of God's laws are inherently moral laws.

Valid point my friend. But in respect to that a distinction needs to be understood. There are commandments and statutes of the book of the Law. These are they which we are placed in our hearts and mouths by His Spirit, the circumcision of the heart that we may do them. The judgements levied in respect to us transgressing them are not.

Deut 30:6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

Deut 30:10 If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul.
Deut 30:11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.
Deut 30:12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
Deut 30:13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
Deut 30:14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.

 

[HIM]

If the idea is that we are to still do the law of God, and if the law of God is the same as the law of the Lord, then this passage that I just came across this morning may be relevant:

"and to offer a sacrifice according to that which is said in the law of the Lord, “A pair of turtledoves, or two young pigeons."
Luke 2

How can we not do that which has become part of who we are? But IN respect to sacrifices, have mercy and not sacrifice.

 

[HIM]

Mans righteousness is as rages. As Christ told them "you being evil know how to give good gifts to your children how much more will your Father in heaven give the holy Spirit to them that ask.". Not what I wanted to say but I always noticed how in one sentence He called them.. being evil and your Father in heaven. Anyway.

When Christ walked this earth did He not tell some "go and sin no more". So there is no one that has the right to control us. We don't have to sin. Even if we never sinned we are still born into sin fallen and need a savior PRAISE GOD GLORY TO JESUS for dying for the world. Why leave out Rom6:8 "You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.". That's right sin no longer has hold on us unless we allow it. This flesh loves to sin yet it has no right to control us. Whom the son sets free is free indeed.

All sinned (past tense) and come short (present tense) of the glory of God. Two things mention there. Sinning which we all have done. And coming short of the glory of God. Which we are all doing. Two often most get these two confused.

 

[daq]

That is not what Romans 7 is about. Subjective points were made in the OP concerning context.

The proof is in what immediately follows in the same passage: for the Instruction of the Spirit of Life in Messiah expounds the Torah for us so that we may understand it in the way it was originally intended and walk in it in the manner that is pleasing to the Father. If it was not for that Instruction of the Spirit of Life in Messiah then we would still not be able to understand the Torah, and the veil would remain over our hearts, minds, and eyes when we read it, still seeing all things according to the natural mind of the natural man who cannot please the Father.

The fact of the matter is that in the renewed covenant every one shall die for his own iniquity, (Jer 31:30a), and therefore you too must die: for also, as it is written, the soul that sins shall die. The Instruction of the Spirit of Life in Messiah has shown me how to die in the manner that is pleasing to the Father in the Gospel accounts. Because of this I am truly able to say that the Instruction of the Spirit of Life in Messiah has set me free from the Instruction of sin and death: for now, understanding how to use the Torah lawfully, I am no more under it but rather wield it against my unruly members for what it is, a rod of iron, as against pottery and vessels of clay.

 

[Leaf473]

How can we not do that which has become part of who we are? But respect to sacrifices, have mercy and not sacrifice.

Amen. The way that we apply the law of God to our lives has changed.

Romans 7
Therefore the law indeed is holy, and the commandment holy, and righteous, and good.

 

[Cornelius8L]

The law of sin and death mentioned in Romans 8:2 is not the Old Testament law. First it is two things mention in that clause. The first is the Law of Sin. The second is the result of this Law. And that is death.

Hi, does that mean sin has its own laws? But “sin is the transgression of the law (1 John 3:4),” and “all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.” (Romans 3:23) So, sin doesn't come up with its own laws. “the law merely brings awareness of sin.” (Romans 3:20) And ”For sin was in the world before the law was given; but sin is not taken into account when there is no law.” (Romans 5:13)

Paul said that sin later took the law's power and caused death through the law.

“The law came in so that the trespass would increase; but where sin increased, grace increased all the more,” (Romans 5:20)​

​

Romans 7:9-11 “Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. So I discovered that the very commandment that was meant to bring life actually brought death. For sin, seizing its opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through the commandment put me to death.” (Which it became the ministry of death in 2 Corinthians 3:7)​

So, what Paul came to understand was, Romans 7:14 “We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin” considering, Romans 6:14, “For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace.” – Sin took over the law and made it its own, so it became known as the "law of sin."

Paul added, Romans 7:25 “… So then, with my mind I serve the law of God, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.” – Because he grew up as a Pharisee who followed the law and traditions to the point of persecuting Christians before Jesus called him. Another example is when God told Peter to eat the animals that were not clean. Peter would say the same thing in Romans 7:21–23, “So this is the principle I have discovered: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God’s law. But I see another law at work in my body, warring against the law of my mind and holding me captive to the law of sin that dwells within me.” – Peter knew that going against God was a sin, but because of the law, he still didn't dare eat the unclean animals as God told him to, even after Jesus was raised from the dead and taken to heaven.

During the time of the Apostles, the way people thought about the law changed suddenly. It wasn't easy for anyone to accept that the things they used to do for salvation were no longer effective, especially since they had been done for generations and across the country.

So, when Paul said in Romans 7:11 that sin deceived him through the law, he meant that sin misled him into taking the law at face value, like a child, instead of judging it with wisdom, like an adult. If not, the same commandment that says you can't kill (but doesn't give details) will judge those who stone a sinner to death out of the righteous standard of God.

But the principle of the same law, which is the righteous standard of the law, is spiritual, and worshipping God should be done in spirit and truth. That righteous standard of the same law is God's law. Example in Romans 2:26, “If a man who is not circumcised keeps the requirements of the law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision?” – not on the face value but on the spiritual value.

So, in Romans 8:5-8 “Those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh; but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. The mind of the flesh is death, but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind of the flesh is hostile to God: It does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. Those controlled by the flesh cannot please God.” plus, Romans 6:15, “What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law, but under grace? Certainly not” explains that the righteous standard is higher than the 'face value' law that sin "deceived and stole" and turned into its own law.

In a similar way, let's talk about David killing. Didn't he break the commandment not to kill? But he did it righteously from a spiritual point of view. Didn't the prophet Hosea break the commandment by marrying a prostitute? But from a spiritual point of view, he did it right because God told him to. Paul was saying that the law now shows us its righteous standard. It matches the statement of Jesus, “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets. I have not come to abolish them, but to fulfill them.” (Matthew 5:17) Sin was given the "face value" of the law. “So the former commandment is set aside because it was weak and useless.” (Hebrews 7:18) “By speaking of a new covenant, He has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.” (Hebrews 8:13)

 

[daq]

@benadamm, I have not yet figured out how to respond to comments left at the bottoms of posts, but from what I have heard, it is quite a detailed process. At the current time I do not plan to begin trying to respond to such comments whether positive or negative. Sorry.

 

[HIM]

Hi, does that mean sin has its own laws?

Yes but singular. The text literally translates Making captive me to the Law OF THE SIN.

Rom 7:23 βλέπω δὲ But I See
ἕτερον Another
νόμον Law ἐν In
τοῖς My μέλεσίν μου Members
ἀντιστρατευόμενον Warring Against
τῷ The
νόμῳ Law
τοῦ Of
νοός Mind,
μου My
καὶ And
αἰχμαλωτίζοντά making Captive
με Me
τῷ To The
νόμῳ Law
τῆς Of The
ἁμαρτίας Sin
τῷ Which
ὄντι Is
ἐν In
τοῖς μέλεσίν Members.
μου My

But “sin is the transgression of the law (1 John 3:4),” and “all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.” (Romans 3:23) So, sin doesn't come up with its own laws. “the law merely brings awareness of sin.” (Romans 3:20) And ”For sin was in the world before the law was given; but sin is not taken into account when there is no law.” (Romans 5:13)

Paul said that sin later took the law's power and caused death through the law.

“The law came in so that the trespass would increase; but where sin increased, grace increased all the more,” (Romans 5:20)​

​

Romans 7:9-11 “Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. So I discovered that the very commandment that was meant to bring life actually brought death. For sin, seizing its opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through the commandment put me to death.” (Which it became the ministry of death in 2 Corinthians 3:7)​

So, what Paul came to understand was, Romans 7:14 “We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin” considering, Romans 6:14, “For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace.” – Sin took over the law and made it its own, so it became known as the "law of sin."

Paul added, Romans 7:25 “… So then, with my mind I serve the law of God, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.” – Because he grew up as a Pharisee who followed the law and traditions to the point of persecuting Christians before Jesus called him. Another example is when God told Peter to eat the animals that were not clean. Peter would say the same thing in Romans 7:21–23, “So this is the principle I have discovered: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God’s law. But I see another law at work in my body, warring against the law of my mind and holding me captive to the law of sin that dwells within me.” – Peter knew that going against God was a sin, but because of the law, he still didn't dare eat the unclean animals as God told him to, even after Jesus was raised from the dead and taken to heaven.

Hi, no to most of what you wrote. But we will stick to what is relevant to the OP.

Paul says what the law is in verse 21, he states in respect to verse 20's statement that sin has control of him that he found a law that when he would do good evil is present with him. Then Paul mentions the Law of God in verse 22. Then in verse 23 he makes a distinction from the law of God he says he sees another law in respect the law he says he found in verse 21 warring against the law that is in his mind that he delights in, the law of God. And this other law that he found, this which is when he would do good evil is present has made him captive to the law of the sin which is in his members. The law that is when he would do good evil is present, that sin took him over. As Jesus said in John 8. He that commits sin is a slave to it.

Rom 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of the sin which is in my members.

 

[Cornelius8L]

Yes but singular. The text literally translates Making captive me to the Law OF THE SIN.

Rom 7:23 βλέπω δὲ But I See
ἕτερον Another
νόμον Law ἐν In
τοῖς My μέλεσίν μου Members
ἀντιστρατευόμενον Warring Against
τῷ The
νόμῳ Law
τοῦ Of
νοός Mind,
μου My
καὶ And
αἰχμαλωτίζοντά making Captive
με Me
τῷ To The
νόμῳ Law
τῆς Of The
ἁμαρτίας Sin
τῷ Which
ὄντι Is
ἐν In
τοῖς μέλεσίν Members.
μου My

Hi, in Romans 7:22, God's law is also singular Θεοῦ (Theou) νόμῳ (nomō). Does this mean that God only has one law? Actually, no.

Hi, no to most of what you wrote. But we will stick to what is relevant to the OP.

Paul says what the law is in verse 21, he states in respect to verse 20's statement that sin has control of him that he found a law that when he would do good evil is present with him. Then Paul mentions the Law of God in verse 22. Then in verse 23 he makes a distinction from the law of God he says he sees another law in respect the law he says he found in verse 21 warring against the law that is in his mind that he delights in, the law of God. And this other law that he found, this which is when he would do good evil is present has made him captive to the law of the sin which is in his members. The law that is when he would do good evil is present, that sin took him over. As Jesus said in John 8. He that commits sin is a slave to it.

Rom 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of the sin which is in my members.

I thought my last post was related to OP because you said Romans 8:2 is not the OT law, and I explained why I don't agree. An alternative example of God's law of freedom that is good but usually out of reach is,

A: Jesus says, “And these signs will accompany those who believe: In My name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; they will pick up snakes with their hands, and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not harm them; they will lay their hands on the sick, and they will be made well.” (Mark 16:17-18) - supported by “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word.” (John 14:23) and greatest commandment is, “ ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.” (Matthew 22:37) ​

​

B: “and everything that is not from faith is sin.” (Romans 14:23)​

If we cannot do A, we will fall under B. Resulting in John saying, “If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.” (1 John 1:8)

 

[benadamm]

@benadamm, I have not yet figured out how to respond to comments left at the bottoms of posts, but from what I have heard, it is quite a detailed process. At the current time I do not plan to begin trying to respond to such comments whether positive or negative. Sorry.

No worries daq.
For this post I clicked the quote button and then could insert your comment in the reply field. Then reply at the bottom. Grace and Peace.

 

[Soyeong]

Hi, does that mean sin has its own laws? But “sin is the transgression of the law (1 John 3:4),” and “all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.” (Romans 3:23) So, sin doesn't come up with its own laws. “the law merely brings awareness of sin.” (Romans 3:20) And ”For sin was in the world before the law was given; but sin is not taken into account when there is no law.” (Romans 5:13)

Paul said that sin later took the law's power and caused death through the law.

“The law came in so that the trespass would increase; but where sin increased, grace increased all the more,” (Romans 5:20)​

The law of sin is not a list of laws, but rather it is an evil inclination or a principle that was working within Pauls members that was causing him not to do the good of obeying the Law of God that he wanted to do. In To Romans 7:22-23, Paul said that he delighted in obeying the Law of God, but contrasted that with the law of sin, which held him captive, and in Romans 7:5-6, it wouldn't make sense to interpret those verses as referring to the Law of God, as if Paul delighted in stirring up sinful passions in order to bear fruit unto death or as if he delighted in being held captive, but rather it is the law of sin that he described as holding him captive. Likewise, a law that stirs up sinful passions in order to bear fruit unto death is a law that is sinful, however, Romans 7:7 says that God's law is not sinful, but is how we know what sin is, so it can't be referring to the same law as Romans 7:5.

A good rule of thumb is that if Paul is referring to a law that wouldn't make sense for him to delight in obeying, then he is not referring to the Law of God, such as in Romans 5:20, it wouldn't make sense to think that Paul delighted in causing trespasses to increase, but rather that is in accordance with how he described the law of sin. So verses that refer to a law that is sinful, where sin has dominion over us, that cause sin to increase, or that hinders us from obeying the Law of God should be interpreted as referring to the law of sin, such Galatians 2:19, Galatians 5:16-18, and 1 Corinthians 15:56.

​

Romans 7:9-11 “Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. So I discovered that the very commandment that was meant to bring life actually brought death. For sin, seizing its opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through the commandment put me to death.” (Which it became the ministry of death in 2 Corinthians 3:7)​

So, what Paul came to understand was, Romans 7:14 “We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin” considering, Romans 6:14, “For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace.” – Sin took over the law and made it its own, so it became known as the "law of sin."

Likewise, Romans 6:14 describes the law that he was speaking about as being a law where sin had dominion over us, which does not refer to the Law of God, which is a law where holiness, righteousness, and goodness have dominion over us (Romans 7:12), but rather that is the law of sin. Furthermore, in Romans 6:15, being under grace does not mean that we are permitted to sin, and sin is the transgression of God's law, so we are still under it, but are not under the law of sin.

Paul added, Romans 7:25 “… So then, with my mind I serve the law of God, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.” – Because he grew up as a Pharisee who followed the law and traditions to the point of persecuting Christians before Jesus called him. Another example is when God told Peter to eat the animals that were not clean. Peter would say the same thing in Romans 7:21–23, “So this is the principle I have discovered: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God’s law. But I see another law at work in my body, warring against the law of my mind and holding me captive to the law of sin that dwells within me.” – Peter knew that going against God was a sin, but because of the law, he still didn't dare eat the unclean animals as God told him to, even after Jesus was raised from the dead and taken to heaven.

Paul did not describe the law of sin as referring to Pharisaic traditions. God did not tell Peter to eat unclean animals. In Acts 10:10-15, Peter could have obeyed God's commands in Leviticus 11 and Deuteronomy 14 and God's command in his vision by simply killing and eating one of the clean animals, so his vision was in regard to the issue of why he refused to do what the Law of God permitted him to do. It should be noted that Peter did not just object by saying that he had never eaten anything that was unclean, but also added that he had never eaten anything that was common. Furthermore, God did not rebuke Peter for his use of the word "unclean", but only rebuked him for referring to what He had made clean as being common. So Peter correctly identified the unclean animals as unclean and correctly knew that he was not supposed to eat them, but he incorrectly identified the clean animals as being common, and he interpreted his vision three times as being in regard to incorrectly identifying Gentiles without saying a word about unclean animals, so his vision had nothing to do with a change in their status.

During the time of the Apostles, the way people thought about the law changed suddenly. It wasn't easy for anyone to accept that the things they used to do for salvation were no longer effective, especially since they had been done for generations and across the country.

In Psalms 119:29, David wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith. In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him His way that he might know Him and Israel too, and in Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so knowing God and Jesus is the goal of the law, which is eternal life (John 17:3, Matthew 19:17, Luke 10:25-28), which again is salvation by grace through faith. In Titus 2:11-14, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so God graciously teaching us to obey His law is itself the content of His gift of salvation. So the way that people thought about the law and what they did for salvation did not change with the Apostles.

So, when Paul said in Romans 7:11 that sin deceived him through the law, he meant that sin misled him into taking the law at face value, like a child, instead of judging it with wisdom, like an adult. If not, the same commandment that says you can't kill (but doesn't give details) will judge those who stone a sinner to death out of the righteous standard of God.

The penalty for breaking the 6th Commandment is death, so if it were the command not to kill, then it would only take one person being killed to create a chain that would wipe out all of Israel, but rather it is the command not to murder.

But the principle of the same law, which is the righteous standard of the law, is spiritual, and worshipping God should be done in spirit and truth. That righteous standard of the same law is God's law. Example in Romans 2:26, “If a man who is not circumcised keeps the requirements of the law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision?” – not on the face value but on the spiritual value.

God's law is spiritual in that it has always been intended to teach us deeper spiritual principles of which the listed laws are just examples, and which are aspects of God's nature/fruits of the Spirit. For example, God's righteous laws are intended to teach us about a spiritual principle of righteousness that will lead us to take examples of that principle in accordance with what God's law instructs, even in situations where it does not give a specific instruction. Correctly understanding a spiritual principle will never lead us away from taking actions that are examples of that principle. In Romans 2:26, the way to recognize that a Gentile has a circumcised heart is by observing their obedience to God's law, which is the same way to tell for a Jew (Deuteronomy 30:6), so it is not referring to something spiritual apart from obeying what it commands, and this has nothing to do with the law of sin.

So, in Romans 8:5-8 “Those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh; but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. The mind of the flesh is death, but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind of the flesh is hostile to God: It does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. Those controlled by the flesh cannot please God.” plus, Romans 6:15, “What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law, but under grace? Certainly not” explains that the righteous standard is higher than the 'face value' law that sin "deceived and stole" and turned into its own law.

In a similar way, let's talk about David killing. Didn't he break the commandment not to kill? But he did it righteously from a spiritual point of view. Didn't the prophet Hosea break the commandment by marrying a prostitute? But from a spiritual point of view, he did it right because God told him to. Paul was saying that the law now shows us its righteous standard. It matches the statement of Jesus, “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets. I have not come to abolish them, but to fulfill them.” (Matthew 5:17) Sin was given the "face value" of the law. “So the former commandment is set aside because it was weak and useless.” (Hebrews 7:18) “By speaking of a new covenant, He has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.” (Hebrews 8:13)

David killing righteously was not breaking the commandment against murder. There isn't a commandment against marrying a prostitute. A spiritual principle can't be contrary to the examples of that principle. In Hebrews 8:10, the New Covenant involves God putting His law in our minds and writing it on our hearts, so the fact that the Mosaic Covenant has become obsolete in Hebrews 8:13 does not mean that God's law became obsolete alone with it.

 

[Leaf473]

The law of sin is not a list of laws, but rather it is an evil inclination or a principle that was working within Pauls members that was causing him not to do the good of obeying the Law of God that he wanted to do.

Is the law of Moses a list of laws?

Is the law of God a list of laws?

If yes to both, are the two lists different?

(If this is off topic, I withdraw the questions.)

Peace be with you all

 

[daq]

The law of sin is not a list of laws, but rather it is an evil inclination or a principle that was working within Pauls members that was causing him not to do the good of obeying the Law of God that he wanted to do. In To Romans 7:22-23, Paul said that he delighted in obeying the Law of God, but contrasted that with the law of sin, which held him captive, and in Romans 7:5-6, it wouldn't make sense to interpret those verses as referring to the Law of God, as if Paul delighted in stirring up sinful passions in order to bear fruit unto death or as if he delighted in being held captive, but rather it is the law of sin that he described as holding him captive. Likewise, a law that stirs up sinful passions in order to bear fruit unto death is a law that is sinful, however, Romans 7:7 says that God's law is not sinful, but is how we know what sin is, so it can't be referring to the same law as Romans 7:5.

That appears to be the opposite of what Paul says. He says that with the flesh he serves the nomos of sin: so according to you he is saying he serves the evil inclination with his flesh?

Moreover, in regards to the last statement in the above paragraph, "Romans 7:7 says that God's law is not sinful, but is how we know what sin is", that is an open admission of what has already been said: that the torah-nomos-instruction-teaching of sin is actually how we understand what sin is. In other words you are saying the same thing without even realizing it: you would not know what sin is, (or how to deal with it), if it was not for the torah-nomos-teaching-instruction concerning sin.

It's about rightly dividing the Word of Truth: there is Instruction concerning sin and death, but that instruction is not the whole Torah. And that Instruction concerning sin and death is good because it shows us what sin is and teaches us how to deal with it in our members, and especially in the Light of the Testimony of the Master in the Gospel accounts which expounds these things.

All one needs to do is understand that nomos is nothing more than a Greek loan word for torah: for it is used many times in the LXX where we find torah in the Hebrew text. Nomos therefore has the same meanings to the authors of the N/T as the word torah, and that means it can be used in the sense of instruction or teaching, (for that is what it actually means), just as it is used here in this passage, and again, two verses later in the next chapter, which is still the same passage regardless of the man-made chapter break.

There is no written "Law of the Spirit of Life in Messiah", no, because it actually says and means the Teaching or Instruction of the Spirit of Life in Messiah, meaning his Testimony, which was by and from the Spirit of Life that was in him throughout his earthly ministry.

This whole misunderstanding is the result of strict mechanical translations where one word always means the exact same thing throughout the text, in this case nomos, which they almost always render as "law", which is wrong and very misleading in some cases, and especially in this passage. Scholars are supposed to be wise, circumspect, and full of scripture knowledge and understanding, not robots inserting "law" every time they see a form of nomos in the Greek text.