Romans 4, water baptism?

[FireDragon76]

In the early Church, deacons performed baptism. Paul was an apostle, which was analogous to a bishop at the time in terms of role and authority. Paul was busy spreading apostolic teaching through preaching, not baptizing. There were other people for baptizing.

 

[Dan Perez]

Are you suggesting that Paul was not baptised with water by Ananias? (Acts 22:12-16)

You have to go back to Acts 9:18 is a better explanation as to what happened to Saul when he was saved .

Verse 18 reads in a translation by R C BROCK , And immediately scales as it were , had fallen off from his eyes , and he recovered sight instantly , and having stood up he was BAPTIZED .

#1 Saul AROSE / OPHTHAIMOS , is this the AORIST TENSE , ACTIVE VOICE , and is a PARTICIPLE in the NOMINATIVE CASE , and is SINGULAR ., when it is PARTICIPLE AROSE should be translated AS Saul was ARISING .

#2 And Saul was ARISING he was BAPTIZED .

#3 Paul was BAPTIZED in a house , so where was the BAPTISTERY , so how was Saul than water Baptized ?

#4 So , as Saul was ARISING , I believe that he was sprinkled with water , as what ANANIAS as a Jew would do .

#5 Jews , SPRINKLED there tables and chairs before they ate .

dan p

 

[Dan Perez]

Baptisma is a noun: "baptism".
Baptizo is a verb, "baptize"

In the context of Christian Baptism, of course water is involved.

-CryptoLutheran

Your thoughts as to when so-called WATER BAPTISM began ?

With a verse , please ?

dan p

 

[ViaCrucis]

Your thoughts as to when so-called WATER BAPTISM began ?

With a verse , please ?

dan p

Christian Baptism began when Christ said, "Make disciples of all nations, baptizing them..." Matthew 28:19

The first record of Christian Baptism is in Acts 2:41.

I refuse to acquiesce to the use of the term "water baptism". It is a pejorative term used to undermine the authority of the word of God.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Doug Brents]

You have to go back to Acts 9:18 is a better explanation as to what happened to Saul when he was saved .

Verse 18 reads in a translation by R C BROCK , And immediately scales as it were , had fallen off from his eyes , and he recovered sight instantly , and having stood up he was BAPTIZED .

#1 Saul AROSE / OPHTHAIMOS , is this the AORIST TENSE , ACTIVE VOICE , and is a PARTICIPLE in the NOMINATIVE CASE , and is SINGULAR ., when it is PARTICIPLE AROSE should be translated AS Saul was ARISING .

#2 And Saul was ARISING he was BAPTIZED .

#3 Paul was BAPTIZED in a house , so where was the BAPTISTERY , so how was Saul than water Baptized ?

#4 So , as Saul was ARISING , I believe that he was sprinkled with water , as what ANANIAS as a Jew would do .

#5 Jews , SPRINKLED there tables and chairs before they ate .

dan p

A couple of problems with this.

Baptize is a transliteration of the Greek baptizo. Baptizo means to immerse. Not to sprinkle, not to pour, not to splash, to immerse.
If this immersion were in the Holy Spirit, then he did not need to arise at all; it could have occurred there in the chair. And Saul would not have needed to make haste at all. The Holy Spirit would have been the one who would have needed to hurry.

 

[bbbbbbb]

A couple of problems with this.

Baptize is a transliteration of the Greek baptizo. Baptizo means to immerse. Not to sprinkle, not to pour, not to splash, to immerse.
If this immersion were in the Holy Spirit, then he did not need to arise at all; it could have occurred there in the chair. And Saul would not have needed to make haste at all. The Holy Spirit would have been the one who would have needed to hurry.

Here is a curious verse from the gospel of Mark -

Mark 7:4 and when they come from the market place, they do not eat unless they cleanse themselves; and there are many other things which they have received in order to observe, such as the washing of cups and pitchers and copper pots.)

The word which is translated as washing is actually baptizo. It would be absurd to think that one would wash cups and pitchers and copper pots by sprinkling a little water over them and calling it good.

By the way, when I was a young believer I was in contact with a Presbyterian minister who was convinced of the efficacy of sprinkling infants with water and calling it baptism. He sent me a list of all the uses of baptizo in the New Testament. When I encountered this verse my mind was made up that sprinkling was not a correct understanding for baptism.

My own view is that baptizo is probably best understood as washing, rather than immersion. I would not wash my floor by immersing it, although in Greek one does baptizo all manner of things, including cups and pitchers and copper pots. The normative way to wash a human body is to immerse it in water. Showering is a relatively modern technology for washing people.

 

[Dan Perez]

Here is a curious verse from the gospel of Mark -

Mark 7:4 and when they come from the market place, they do not eat unless they cleanse themselves; and there are many other things which they have received in order to observe, such as the washing of cups and pitchers and copper pots.)

The word which is translated as washing is actually baptizo. It would be absurd to think that one would wash cups and pitchers and copper pots by sprinkling a little water over them and calling it good.

By the way, when I was a young believer I was in contact with a Presbyterian minister who was convinced of the efficacy of sprinkling infants with water and calling it baptism. He sent me a list of all the uses of baptizo in the New Testament. When I encountered this verse my mind was made up that sprinkling was not a correct understanding for baptism.

My own view is that baptizo is probably best understood as washing, rather than immersion. I would not wash my floor by immersing it, although in Greek one does baptizo all manner of things, including cups and pitchers and copper pots. The normative way to wash a human body is to immerse it in water. Showering is a relatively modern technology for washing people.

In 1 Cor 10:2 they were BAPTIZED unto Moses unto the CLOUD and unto the SEA .

When I see the Greek word BAPTIZED or BAPTIZE does it mean WATER , your thoughts ?

What about 1 Cor 15:29 How were they BAPTIZED / BAPTISO unto the DEAD?

How did they BAPTIZED one for the DEAD ?

BAPTISM has many meaning , POUR , WASH , SPRINKLE , SPIRIT .

dan p

 

[Doug Brents]

In 1 Cor 10:2 they were BAPTIZED unto Moses unto the CLOUD and unto the SEA .

When I see the Greek word BAPTIZED or BAPTIZE does it mean WATER , your thoughts ?

What about 1 Cor 15:29 How were they BAPTIZED / BAPTISO unto the DEAD?

How did they BAPTIZED one for the DEAD ?

BAPTISM has many meaning , POUR , WASH , SPRINKLE , SPIRIT .

dan p

Baptizo is a Greek word that means to immerse, not pour, not sprinkle. Spirit is one thing that we can be immersed into, but it has no bearing on the meaning of baptizo.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Baptizo is a Greek word that means to immerse, not pour, not sprinkle. Spirit is one thing that we can be immersed into, but it has no bearing on the meaning of baptizo.

Just a quick question. How does one baptizo a table?

 

[Doug Brents]

Just a quick question. How does one baptizo a table?

Weird question and totally irrelevant to a Biblical discussion (as far as I can tell). But the definition does not change based on what is being immersed, or into what it is being immersed. To baptizo a table, you put a table completely under water (or into whatever else it is you are immersing it).

 

[bbbbbbb]

Weird question and totally irrelevant to a Biblical discussion (as far as I can tell). But the definition does not change based on what is being immersed, or into what it is being immersed. To baptizo a table, you put a table completely under water (or into whatever else it is you are immersing it).

Here is the particular verse in question -

Mark 7:4 And when they come from the market, except they wash, they eat not. And many other things there be, which they have received to hold, as the washing of cups, and pots, brasen vessels, and of tables.

That was the KJV translation. Here is Young's literal translation -

Mark 7:4 and, [coming] from the market-place, if they do not baptize themselves, they do not eat; and many other things there are that they received to hold, baptisms of cups, and pots, and brazen vessels, and couches.

The Greek word translated for wash and washing in the KJV is actually baptizo, as Mr. Young has literally translated it. From you said, apparently folks were taking their tables or couches (couches is more literal) to the nearest available large body of water and immersing them in order to clean them.

I don't know about you, but I have never met anyone hauling out their couches (or tables) to the local swimming pool or church baptistery in order to wash them.

 

[Doug Brents]

Here is the particular verse in question -

Mark 7:4 And when they come from the market, except they wash, they eat not. And many other things there be, which they have received to hold, as the washing of cups, and pots, brasen vessels, and of tables.

That was the KJV translation. Here is Young's literal translation -

Mark 7:4 and, [coming] from the market-place, if they do not baptize themselves, they do not eat; and many other things there are that they received to hold, baptisms of cups, and pots, and brazen vessels, and couches.

The Greek word translated for wash and washing in the KJV is actually baptizo, as Mr. Young has literally translated it. From you said, apparently folks were taking their tables or couches (couches is more literal) to the nearest available large body of water and immersing them in order to clean them.

I don't know about you, but I have never met anyone hauling out their couches (or tables) to the local swimming pool or church baptistery in order to wash them.

Ahh, that makes more sense now, but knowing the Law, and knowing that they would need to ceremonially wash (baptize) themselves and many other things, the Temple (and the Tabernacle before it) was built with many large "baths" into which things could be immersed. One of them, the main bath in the Temple, held approximately 11,600 gallons of water (2000 baths each of about 5.8 gallons). This would have been plenty large enough to immerse tables, chairs, etc. Also note, that very few of the pieces of furniture of that day were upholstered. They had removable cushions, but very few were made as part of the item as is common today.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Ahh, that makes more sense now, but knowing the Law, and knowing that they would need to ceremonially wash (baptize) themselves and many other things, the Temple (and the Tabernacle before it) was built with many large "baths" into which things could be immersed. One of them, the main bath in the Temple, held approximately 11,600 gallons of water (2000 baths each of about 5.8 gallons). This would have been plenty large enough to immerse tables, chairs, etc. Also note, that very few of the pieces of furniture of that day were upholstered. They had removable cushions, but very few were made as part of the item as is common today.

The irony is that much furnishings of the time were made of stone. Wood was a luxury product. Cheap grades of wood were used for pallets, such as the one on which the lame man had lain.

Think about it. If each and every household in Jerusalem took its table or couch to get baptized in the temple prior to each meal, the lines would have been immense.

This reminds me of the use of holy water in the Catholic Church. At the cathedral in St. Paul, Minnesota there is a beautiful water spigot labeled for holy water, such that ordinary Catholics could fill up a container with it for home use. However, it would be exceedingly arduous for them to haul enough water home to take a bath in it, or even to take a shower.

 

[Doug Brents]

The irony is that much furnishings of the time were made of stone. Wood was a luxury product. Cheap grades of wood were used for pallets, such as the one on which the lame man had lain.

Think about it. If each and every household in Jerusalem took its table or couch to get baptized in the temple prior to each meal, the lines would have been immense.

This reminds me of the use of holy water in the Catholic Church. At the cathedral in St. Paul, Minnesota there is a beautiful water spigot labeled for holy water, such that ordinary Catholics could fill up a container with it for home use. However, it would be exceedingly arduous for them to haul enough water home to take a bath in it, or even to take a shower.

Again, most of the things that you are talking about were not an issue. The household tables and chairs, etc. did not require such immersions. Only the dishes and the hands required immersion in that manner in the home. The Temple implements required this kind of immersion, but the household items did not, according to the Law.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Again, most of the things that you are talking about were not an issue. The household tables and chairs, etc. did not require such immersions. Only the dishes and the hands required immersion in that manner in the home. The Temple implements required this kind of immersion, but the household items did not, according to the Law.

Nevertheless, Mark is quite clear that folks were in the habit of baptizing cups, pitchers and tables (couches). If my table gets dirty, which it does on a very regular basis, usually after every meal, I would never imagine hauling it outside, across the city and baptizing it. A good pitcher of water and maybe some soap with a good wash rag does it for me.

 

[Doug Brents]

Nevertheless, Mark is quite clear that folks were in the habit of baptizing cups, pitchers and tables (couches). If my table gets dirty, which it does on a very regular basis, usually after every meal, I would never imagine hauling it outside, across the city and baptizing it. A good pitcher of water and maybe some soap with a good wash rag does it for me.

That may be good enough for you, but you do not live in first century Israel. Your personal preferences, desires, work ethic, etc. do not have any bearing on what the Law of Moses said was required for righteousness. Nor do the actual practices and habits of the Israelite leadership in the first century. What matters is what God said was the standard, and in the Law I do not see or remember any requirements to immerse tables, chairs, couches, etc. I see that plates, bowls, hands, and other utensils were required to be immersed and washed.

 

[bbbbbbb]

That may be good enough for you, but you do not live in first century Israel. Your personal preferences, desires, work ethic, etc. do not have any bearing on what the Law of Moses said was required for righteousness. Nor do the actual practices and habits of the Israelite leadership in the first century. What matters is what God said was the standard, and in the Law I do not see or remember any requirements to immerse tables, chairs, couches, etc. I see that plates, bowls, hands, and other utensils were required to be immersed and washed.

You are quite correct. There is nothing at all in the Law about baptizing tables or couches. Nevertheless, Mark informs us that that is what they were actually doing. I sincerely doubt that they were hauling them across Jerusalem to baptize them at the temple. I maintain that baptizo is best understood as any form of washing. When I was my tableware I immerse them all fully in my sink. When I wash my table I simply get it thoroughly wet and scrub it gently with a wash rag and dry it with a towel.

When I wash my body I take a shower, although I bathed for the first two decades of my life. Lacking any apparatus for showering, as in the first century, the normal method of cleansing the Jewish body was the mikvah in which one bathed.

 

[Doug Brents]

You are quite correct. There is nothing at all in the Law about baptizing tables or couches. Nevertheless, Mark informs us that that is what they were actually doing. I sincerely doubt that they were hauling them across Jerusalem to baptize them at the temple. I maintain that baptizo is best understood as any form of washing. When I was my tableware I immerse them all fully in my sink. When I wash my table I simply get it thoroughly wet and scrub it gently with a wash rag and dry it with a towel.

When I wash my body I take a shower, although I bathed for the first two decades of my life. Lacking any apparatus for showering, as in the first century, the normal method of cleansing the Jewish body was the mikvah in which one bathed.

I will accept that they may have "washed" the tables and such instead of immersing them (and called it baptizo). But reading 1 Peter 3:21, our baptism is not for the removal of dirt from the body (washing/showering), but is immersion in water for the purpose of cleansing our soul and conscience. Thus, the meaning of the word, to immerse/verb or immersion/noun, remains.

 

[Dan Perez]

I will accept that they may have "washed" the tables and such instead of immersing them (and called it baptizo). But reading 1 Peter 3:21, our baptism is not for the removal of dirt from the body (washing/showering), but is immersion in water for the purpose of cleansing our soul and conscience. Thus, the meaning of the word, to immerse/verb or immersion/noun, remain

Christian Baptism began when Christ said, "Make disciples of all nations, baptizing them..." Matthew 28:19

The first record of Christian Baptism is in Acts 2:41.

I refuse to acquiesce to the use of the term "water baptism". It is a pejorative term used to undermine the authority of the word of God.

-CryptoLutheran

If you check 1 Peter 3:21 where it reads , The like figure where unto even BAPTISM // really reads BAPTISMA and justbb check the Greek text by using BLUE LETTER BIBLE or use BIBLE HUB and it reads BAPTISMA , and BAPTISMA is used 22 times from Matthew through 1 Peter 21:21 , PEEIOD!!

Eph 4:5 reads ONE LORD , ONE FAITH ONE BAPTISMA !!

And that ONE BAPTISMA is the HOLY SPIRIT ,

Just because it BAPTIZE does NOT means WATER BAPTISM .

In 1 Cor 10:2 reads , And they were all BAPTIZED onto Moses unto the CLOUD unto the SEA >

If it was WATER BAPTISM , how were the thousands of Jews that crossed the Red Sea , WATER BAPTIZED INTO MOSES ?

How were they BAPTIZED unto the CLOUD ?

And unto the SEA ??

What does CLOUD and the SEA mean as a figure of SPEECH ??

By the way , in 1 Cor 15:29 How were they BAPTIZED for the DEAD ?

Was it by WATER ??

dan p

 

[Doug Brents]

If you check 1 Peter 3:21 where it reads , The like figure where unto even BAPTISM // really reads BAPTISMA and justbb check the Greek text by using BLUE LETTER BIBLE or use BIBLE HUB and it reads BAPTISMA , and BAPTISMA is used 22 times from Matthew through 1 Peter 21:21 , PEEIOD!!

Eph 4:5 reads ONE LORD , ONE FAITH ONE BAPTISMA !!

And that ONE BAPTISMA is the HOLY SPIRIT ,

Just because it BAPTIZE does NOT means WATER BAPTISM .

In 1 Cor 10:2 reads , And they were all BAPTIZED onto Moses unto the CLOUD unto the SEA >

If it was WATER BAPTISM , how were the thousands of Jews that crossed the Red Sea , WATER BAPTIZED INTO MOSES ?

How were they BAPTIZED unto the CLOUD ?

And unto the SEA ??

What does CLOUD and the SEA mean as a figure of SPEECH ??

By the way , in 1 Cor 15:29 How were they BAPTIZED for the DEAD ?

Was it by WATER ??

dan p

The word baptisma does not automatically mean water immersion. The word "baptisma" simply means "immersion". It is the noun usage of the verb form baptismo "to immerse". There are several things in Scripture that different people were immersed into. One of them, as you point out, is the people of Israel being immersed into the sea, and the cloud, when they were coming out of Egypt (one could even say they were immersed in slavery while in Egypt). But NT baptism (immersion) is absolutely, without a doubt or debate, an act that man must do (Matt 28:19, Mark 16:16, Acts 22:16), not something that only the Spirit does. And it absolutely requires water (Acts 8:36, 1 Pet 3:21). Now, the Spirit is absolutely a part of what happens during baptism (Col 2:11-14), but He is not the only active participant in the event.