Romans 4, water baptism?

[ViaCrucis]

No, I do believe that Paul was baptized with water by Ananias. In Paul's ministry, however, he seemed to have a marked disinterest in external rites like baptism.

Read 1 Corinthians 10.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

The most obvious reference to Spirit baptism is here:
1Cor. 12:12 For as the body is one, and hath many members; and all the members of the body, whereas they are many, yet are one body, so also is Christ. 13 For in one Spirit were we all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Gentiles, whether bond or free; and in one Spirit we have all been made to drink.

What does Jesus say in Matthew 28:19? Baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son, and...?

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Dan Perez]

Good day,

An exegetical question for you if you're willing. I am wrestling with Romans 6 and Paul's reference to baptism in v4. I always approached this text with the idea that Paul was referring to the rite of water baptism. After reading around on this, it seems like there are good reasons for rejecting this. (this is not about paedo/credo baptism)

Just consider these reasons which I found to be rather convincing. Could the same man that wrote,

• "I thank God I baptized none of you but Crispus and Gaius" and
• "Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the Gospel." and
• "circumcision is nothing."

go on to write that by water baptism we are buried into Christ's death (Rom 6)? which I take to be a reference to union with Christ? How could Paul on the one hand show such disinterest in the outward ceremonies of baptism and circumcision and then teach that water baptism represents something as significant as "uniting us to Christ" in Romans 6? Nothing is more important for Paul than union with Christ; I think that is pretty clear. Furthermore, Paul seems quite uninterested in the ritual of water baptism. So....why do we believe that Paul is thinking of water baptism in Romans 6? Isn't it far more likely that Paul is referring here to Spirit baptism as in 1Cor 12:13? That seems to be a more consistent way to understand Romans 6.

Now I understand that all the commentators are against me on this; but why?

Just when you look at the Greek text , Rom 6:4 reads , Therefore we were buried together with Him , ( Christ ) through ( THIS ) BAPTISMA and BAPTISMA does not mean nWATER BAPTISM .

Reading Eph 4:5 reads One Lord , One Faith , and One BAPTISMA and check the Greek text and you will see it is NOT BAPTISM / BAPTIZO and is the Greek word BAPTISMA .

And There is only one BAPTISMA and that is the HOLY SPIRIT .


dan p

 

[ViaCrucis]

Just when you look at the Greek text , Rom 6:4 reads , Therefore we were buried together with Hi , ( Christ ) through ( THIS ) BAPTISMA and BAPTISMA does not mean nWATER BAPTISM .

Reading Eph 4:5 reads One Lord , One Faith , and One BAPTISMA and check the Greek text and you will see it is NOT BAPTISM / BAPTIZO and is the Greek word BAPTISMA .

And There is only one BAPTISMA and that is the HOLY SPIRIT .


dan p

I don't believe that this can be argued biblically. The baptism with the Holy Spirit refers to something rather specific in the New Testament, namely what happened on Pentecost. If you look for every use of "baptism with the Holy Spirit" in the New Testament, you'll see that it refers to the outpouring/giving of the Holy Spirit on Pentecost (this includes the "second" Pentecost for the Gentiles that happened at Cornelius' house).

There is no reason to assume that "baptism" used in its ordinary sense refers to anything other than the application of water "in the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit" as Christ instituted in Matthew 28. Hence it is called "baptism in the name of the Lord Jesus" and similar; i.e. baptism by His authority.

Baptism with the Holy Spirit is called baptism by way of analogy, hence St. John the Baptist said, "I baptize you with water, but He who comes after Me, whose sandals I am unworthy to fasten, will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire". It is by analogy, "I baptize you with water" but Christ "baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire". This, as we see, was fulfilled on Pentecost (Acts 1:4-8).

In similar ways Christ speaks of His suffering as an analogy to baptism (Mark 10:38), and St. Paul also uses baptism as analogy for Israel's experience of Exodus (1 Corinthians 10:2).

What justification is there, then, to say that baptism, without any other qualification refers to anything else other than, well, baptism? In a Jewish context "baptism" always refers to tevillah, washing in water. That's why the ritual washing (tevillah) in a ritual bath (mikveh) is called "baptism" in Greek. It's why John's baptism for repentance was in water. And it's why Christian baptism, that Christ instituted, is also with water. Which is why the Ethiopian eunuch says to St. Philip, "Look, here is some water, what prevents me from being baptized?" The eunuch understands, very obviously, that he needed to be baptized as a Christian, and so receives it. Even as the three thousand were baptized upon hearing St. Peter say, "Repent and be baptized, all of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit" (Acts 2:38), even as when the Gospel was preached among the Samaritans we read that they were baptized, but had not yet received chrismation (Acts 8:14-17), and then we have Cornelius and his household receiving baptism after the pouring out of the Spirit (Acts 10:44-48), and likewise the Phillippian jailor and his household (Acts 16:31-34), and also the twelve followers of John the Baptist near Ephesus (Acts 19:1-7).

Baptism and chrismation (the laying on of hands and anointing with oil as the sign and seal of the Holy Spirit) were the normative means of being received into the Church. While chrismation is a complicated subject today, because of certain liturgical and ecclesiastical developments particularly in the West (namely chrismation became confirmation in the medieval west).

But it's abundantly clear from Scripture and ancient Christian practice that baptism is baptism. The one baptism of Ephesians 4 is normative Christian baptism. It's why we see the Lord say in the Gospel of John that we must be born again, and He speaks of new birth as a birth of "water and the Spirit" (John 3:5), it's why St. Paul in Ephesians 5:26 speaks of Christ having cleansed the Church by the "washing of water with the word", and Paul again in Titus 3:5 speaks of the "washing of new birth". It's why St. Peter in 1 Peter 3:21 uses the flood and the ark (famously about water) as a way to speak of the meaning of baptism, saying "this corresponds to baptism which now saves you".

It is simply impossible to separate baptism from water. That would be like trying to separate the Lord's Supper from the bread and wine. That's impossible. Baptism is God's word and promise connected to and with water, even as the Lord's Supper is God's word and promise connected to and with bread and wine. That is why these things are called Sacraments/Holy Mysteries, aka Means of Grace. For God uses material things, connecting His word to them, that His word and promise is expressed in a tangible and visible way: God giving, creating, strengthening, and sustaining our faith by His own word, promise, and grace.

This anti-Sacramental approach of some modern forms of Protestantism is deeply and troublingly unbiblical. And it ultimately is denying God's own power and grace at work in His Church. And as such, people are prone to come up with their own works to try and justify themselves, contrary to the word of God which says we are saved by grace through faith, which is not of ourselves, but the gift of God, not works. Since it is God's grace, then it is God's works and word which confer His gifts and promises, and this He does by His own means, not any means that we ourselves make up for ourselves. God comes down to meet us in our lowliness, we do not rise up to meet God by our own power, will, work, and strength. For God has come down and meets us int he lowliness of the cross, as St. Paul powerfully and profoundly says in Philippians 2: Though being by nature God, Christ did not consider equality with God something to be exploited, but emptied Himself, taking on the form of a slave, and being found in human likeness was obedient, even to the point of death on the cross.

God meets us in the lowliness of the cross, in order the raise us up with Christ. So it is written, "Do you not know that all of you who were baptized were baptized into Christ's death?

"Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? We were buried therefore with Him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life." (Romans 6:3-4)

For we have been clothed with Christ in baptism (Galatians 3:27), we have died and been buried with Christ in baptism (Colossians 2:13-14), we have therefore received God's pledge and promise of a new, renewed, conscience by the power of Christ's resurrection through baptism (1 Peter 3:21).

Not because water is magical, but because God has connected His word and promise to water in this Sacrament of Holy Baptism. Even as He has connected His word and promise to bread and wine in Holy Communion, which is why Christ our Lord says, "This is My body which is broken for you" and "This is the New Covenant in My blood", this we do for the remembrance of Him. Paul saying that this bread and cup are the very partaking (koinonia) of Christ's body and blood (1 Corinthians 10:16), which is why to not discern the body of Christ in the Supper and to partake unworthily is to sin against the body and blood of Christ Himself (1 Corinthians 11:27). These are not mere tokens of meaningles religious ritual. These are means of God's grace, signs and seals of grace, the acts and promises of God together in profound and yet very simple and ordinary things. God has taken ordinary water and attached His own Name to it, "baptize them in the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit", He has taken ordinary bread and wine and declared them to be the flesh and blood of Christ broken and shed for us. That through these we might be strenghtened, sustained, and nourished by God through faith.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Dan Perez]

Good day,

An exegetical question for you if you're willing. I am wrestling with Romans 6 and Paul's reference to baptism in v4. I always approached this text with the idea that Paul was referring to the rite of water baptism. After reading around on this, it seems like there are good reasons for rejecting this. (this is not about paedo/credo baptism)

Just consider these reasons which I found to be rather convincing. Could the same man that wrote,

• "I thank God I baptized none of you but Crispus and Gaius" and
• "Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the Gospel." and
• "circumcision is nothing."AISUS

go on to write that by water baptism we are buried into Christ's death (Rom 6)? which I take to be a reference to union with Christ? How could Paul on the one hand show such disinterest in the outward ceremonies of baptism and circumcision and then teach that water baptism represents something as significant as "uniting us to Christ" in Romans 6? Nothing is more important for Paul than union with Christ; I think that is pretty clear. Furthermore, Paul seems quite uninterested in the ritual of water baptism. So....why do we believe that Paul is thinking of water baptism in Romans 6? Isn't it far more likely that Paul is referring here to Spirit baptism as in 1Cor 12:13? That seems to be a more consistent way to understand Romans 6.

Now I understand that all the commentators are against me on this; but why?

In 1 Cor 1:14 reads , I give thanks to God that I baptized NONE of you except CRIPUS and GAISUS ,

LEST anyone say that I had had BAPTIZED / BAPTIZO , by WATER , FOR MY NAME .



Those who Water Baptized in the NAME OF JESUS CHIRST , or as in Matt 29 :18 Baptize in the name of the FATHER , the Son and the HOLY SPIRIT .

Reading Acts 18:7 Paul left and went to Justus house which was next to the Synagogue and that means that Paul was NOT in the synagogue where CRIPUS was BAPTIZING ,


In Acts 19 :6 Paul laid his hands , wherenPaul laid his hands and they received the HOLY SPIRIT came upon them .

As far as 1 Cor 1: 15 Paul could NEVER WATER BAPTIZE , the Greek word LEST / ME is a DISJUNCATIVE PARTICILE NEGATIVE and means Paul never water baptized anyone .

dan p

 

[ViaCrucis]

In 1 Cor 1:14 reads , I give thanks to God that I baptized NONE of you except CRIPUS and GAISUS ,

LEST anyone say that I had had BAPTIZED / BAPTIZO , by WATER , FOR MY NAME .



Those who Water Baptized in the NAME OF JESUS CHIRST , or as in Matt 29 :18 Baptize in the name of the FATHER , the Son and the HOLY SPIRIT .

Reading Acts 18:7 Paul left and went to Justus house which was next to the Synagogue and that means that Paul was NOT in the synagogue where CRIPUS was BAPTIZING ,


In Acts 19 :6 Paul laid his hands , wherenPaul laid his hands and they received the HOLY SPIRIT came upon them .

As far as 1 Cor 1: 15 Paul could NEVER WATER BAPTIZE , the Greek word LEST / ME is a DISJUNCATIVE PARTICILE NEGATIVE and means Paul never water baptized anyone .

dan p

In Acts 18 it doesn't say that Crispus officiated baptism for anyone, the implication is that Crispus and his household were baptized. Hence it says they believed. The further information Paul gives us in 1 Corinthians is that Paul did perform the baptism on Crispus.

Paul is thankful that he wasn't the one personally performing the baptisms which the Corinthian believers received, because of the way they were quarreling amongs themselves, setting themselves up into factions, "I'm of Paul" "I'm of Peter" "I'm of Apollos" "I'm of Christ", etc. Paul, therefore, is thankful that he only was personally involved in a few of the baptisms. Because Paul wanted to be absolutely clear that there is no "of Paul" or "of Peter" or "of Apollos", it doesn't matter who performed the baptism, it doesn't matter whose preaching was heard when they believed. Paul is just a servant, Apollos is just a servant, Peter is just a servant. They all preach the same Gospel, they all serve the same Christ. And therefore, when the Corinthians believed and received baptism, it doesn't matter whether Paul was personally involved, or Apollos, or Peter, or anyone else. What mattered was they are the vineyard of God.

"I planted, Apollos watered, but it was God who gave the growth." (1 Corinthians 3:6)

Faith comes not from the power and will of man, but as the gift of God (Ephesians 2:8), for it is the word of God that creates faith (Romans 10:17). And so the seed of the word (see the Parable of the Sower) is that while there are those who plant the seed, there are those who water the seed, it is God Himself who causes the seed to grow and produce faith.

Therefore the person who performs a baptism isn't what matters. What matters is the word of God which creates faith. So the Apostle says he was not sent to baptize but to preach.

Anyone can perform baptism, since it is not the one who performs the baptism that matters--it is God who gives the growth, God who creates faith, God who gives life and new birth. The servant who officiates is nothing more than that, a servant. It is God who is at work in the Sacrament of Holy Baptism to work faith and give life. Thus baptism is properly the work of God alone, not the work of any man.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Doug Brents]

Just when you look at the Greek text , Rom 6:4 reads , Therefore we were buried together with Hi , ( Christ ) through ( THIS ) BAPTISMA and BAPTISMA does not mean nWATER BAPTISM .

Reading Eph 4:5 reads One Lord , One Faith , and One BAPTISMA and check the Greek text and you will see it is NOT BAPTISM / BAPTIZO and is the Greek word BAPTISMA .

And There is only one BAPTISMA and that is the HOLY SPIRIT .


dan p

I see what you are trying to say, but please note that baptizo is the verb and baptiza is the noun. And both are in reference to immersion. But there is no reference in Rom 6 or Eph 4 as to what we are to be immersed into. But 1 Pet 3:21 says that it is into water that we must be immersed that saves us. And Acts 8:36 says that Phillip taught the Eunuch about baptism in water.

 

[Dan Perez]

I don't believe that this can be argued biblically. The baptism with the Holy Spirit refers to something rather specific in the New Testament, namely what happened on Pentecost. If you look for every use of "baptism with the Holy Spirit" in the New Testament, you'll see that it refers to the outpouring/giving of the Holy Spirit on Pentecost (this includes the "second" Pentecost for the Gentiles that happened at Cornelius' house).

There is no reason to assume that "baptism" used in its ordinary sense refers to anything other than the application of water "in the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit" as Christ instituted in Matthew 28. Hence it is called "baptism in the name of the Lord Jesus" and similar; i.e. baptism by His authority.

Baptism with the Holy Spirit is called baptism by way of analogy, hence St. John the Baptist said, "I baptize you with water, but He who comes after Me, whose sandals I am unworthy to fasten, will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire". It is by analogy, "I baptize you with water" but Christ "baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire". This, as we see, was fulfilled on Pentecost (Acts 1:4-8).

In similar ways Christ speaks of His suffering as an analogy to baptism (Mark 10:38), and St. Paul also uses baptism as analogy for Israel's experience of Exodus (1 Corinthians 10:2).

What justification is there, then, to say that baptism, without any other qualification refers to anything else other than, well, baptism? In a Jewish context "baptism" always refers to tevillah, washing in water. That's why the ritual washing (tevillah) in a ritual bath (mikveh) is called "baptism" in Greek. It's why John's baptism for repentance was in water. And it's why Christian baptism, that Christ instituted, is also with water. Which is why the Ethiopian eunuch says to St. Philip, "Look, here is some water, what prevents me from being baptized?" The eunuch understands, very obviously, that he needed to be baptized as a Christian, and so receives it. Even as the three thousand were baptized upon hearing St. Peter say, "Repent and be baptized, all of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit" (Acts 2:38), even as when the Gospel was preached among the Samaritans we read that they were baptized, but had not yet received chrismation (Acts 8:14-17), and then we have Cornelius and his household receiving baptism after the pouring out of the Spirit (Acts 10:44-48), and likewise the Phillippian jailor and his household (Acts 16:31-34), and also the twelve followers of John the Baptist near Ephesus (Acts 19:1-7).

Baptism and chrismation (the laying on of hands and anointing with oil as the sign and seal of the Holy Spirit) were the normative means of being received into the Church. While chrismation is a complicated subject today, because of certain liturgical and ecclesiastical developments particularly in the West (namely chrismation became confirmation in the medieval west).

But it's abundantly clear from Scripture and ancient Christian practice that baptism is baptism. The one baptism of Ephesians 4 is normative Christian baptism. It's why we see the Lord say in the Gospel of John that we must be born again, and He speaks of new birth as a birth of "water and the Spirit" (John 3:5), it's why St. Paul in Ephesians 5:26 speaks of Christ having cleansed the Church by the "washing of water with the word", and Paul again in Titus 3:5 speaks of the "washing of new birth". It's why St. Peter in 1 Peter 3:21 uses the flood and the ark (famously about water) as a way to speak of the meaning of baptism, saying "this corresponds to baptism which now saves you".

It is simply impossible to separate baptism from water. That would be like trying to separate the Lord's Supper from the bread and wine. That's impossible. Baptism is God's word and promise connected to and with water, even as the Lord's Supper is God's word and promise connected to and with bread and wine. That is why these things are called Sacraments/Holy Mysteries, aka Means of Grace. For God uses material things, connecting His word to them, that His word and promise is expressed in a tangible and visible way: God giving, creating, strengthening, and sustaining our faith by His own word, promise, and grace.

This anti-Sacramental approach of some modern forms of Protestantism is deeply and troublingly unbiblical. And it ultimately is denying God's own power and grace at work in His Church. And as such, people are prone to come up with their own works to try and justify themselves, contrary to the word of God which says we are saved by grace through faith, which is not of ourselves, but the gift of God, not works. Since it is God's grace, then it is God's works and word which confer His gifts and promises, and this He does by His own means, not any means that we ourselves make up for ourselves. God comes down to meet us in our lowliness, we do not rise up to meet God by our own power, will, work, and strength. For God has come down and meets us int he lowliness of the cross, as St. Paul powerfully and profoundly says in Philippians 2: Though being by nature God, Christ did not consider equality with God something to be exploited, but emptied Himself, taking on the form of a slave, and being found in human likeness was obedient, even to the point of death on the cross.

God meets us in the lowliness of the cross, in order the raise us up with Christ. So it is written, "Do you not know that all of you who were baptized were baptized into Christ's death?

"Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? We were buried therefore with Him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life." (Romans 6:3-4)

For we have been clothed with Christ in baptism (Galatians 3:27), we have died and been buried with Christ in baptism (Colossians 2:13-14), we have therefore received God's pledge and promise of a new, renewed, conscience by the power of Christ's resurrection through baptism (1 Peter 3:21).

Not because water is magical, but because God has connected His word and promise to water in this Sacrament of Holy Baptism. Even as He has connected His word and promise to bread and wine in Holy Communion, which is why Christ our Lord says, "This is My body which is broken for you" and "This is the New Covenant in My blood", this we do for the remembrance of Him. Paul saying that this bread and cup are the very partaking (koinonia) of Christ's body and blood (1 Corinthians 10:16), which is why to not discern the body of Christ in the Supper and to partake unworthily is to sin against the body and blood of Christ Himself (1 Corinthians 11:27). These are not mere tokens of meaningles religious ritual. These are means of God's grace, signs and seals of grace, the acts and promises of God together in profound and yet very simple and ordinary things. God has taken ordinary water and attached His own Name to it, "baptize them in the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit", He has taken ordinary bread and wine and declared them to be the flesh and blood of Christ broken and shed for us. That through these we might be strenghtened, sustained, and nourished by God through faith.

-CryptoLutheran

And in my response #25 I forgot to mention Eph 4:5 and it reads One Lord , One Faith , One Baptism .

But the Greek reads , ONE BAPTIMA , and Not one baptism .

That one BAPTIMA is the HOLY SPIRIT in Rom 6:4 and BAPTISMA is used 22 x from Matt---- Eph 4:5 .

So Ron 6:4 should read Therefore , we were BURIED together with Him through this BAPTISMA ( HOLY SIRIT ) INTO Death , in order that just as Christ was raised from the dead .

This also explain 1 Cor 15:29 BAPTIZED FOR THE DEAD and also explains that without this BAPTISMA no one came be RESUTECTED .

dan p

 

[ViaCrucis]

And in my response #25 I forgot to mention Eph 4:5 and it reads One Lord , One Faith , One Baptism .

But the Greek reads , ONE BAPTIMA , and Not one baptism .

That one BAPTIMA is the HOLY SPIRIT in Rom 6:4 and BAPTISMA is used 22 x from Matt---- Eph 4:5 .

So Ron 6:4 should read Therefore , we were BURIED together with Him through this BAPTISMA ( HOLY SIRIT ) INTO Death , in order that just as Christ was raised from the dead .

This also explain 1 Cor 15:29 BAPTIZED FOR THE DEAD and also explains that without this BAPTISMA no one came be RESUTECTED .

dan p

The Greek word βάπτισμα is transliterated into English as baptism. The one βάπτισμα of Ephesians 4:5 is Christian baptism, which Christ instituted in Matthew 28:19.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Dan Perez]

The Greek word βάπτισμα is transliterated into English as baptism. The one βάπτισμα of Ephesians 4:5 is Christian baptism, which Christ instituted in Matthew 28:19.

-CryptoLutheran

John 1:31 says that WATER BAPTISM , BUT that he should be MADE MANIFEST to Israel only and does mention the BODY OF CHRIST >

What say you ?

dan p

 

[ViaCrucis]

John 1:31 says that WATER BAPTISM , BUT that he should be MADE MANIFEST to Israel only and does mention the BODY OF CHRIST >

What say you ?

dan p

St. John the Baptist came to prepare the way, in fulfillment of the promise made by the Prophet Malachi, that Elijah would come before the Day of YHWH. He was the voice calling out in the wilderness, prepare the way for YHWH. He made ready the way for Christ, for here YHWH Himself had condescended, Incarnate by the Virgin Mary, God the Eternal Word and only-begotten of the Father (John 1:1-18). For Israel, yes, but indeed also for all nations. For Christ called His Apostles to be His witness-bearers, beginning in Jerusalem, throughout Judea and Samaria, and then to the ends of the earth; to make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit (Matthew 28:19). And so, when the baptism with the Holy Spirit came on Pentecost, St. Peter filled with the Holy Spirit called on all gathered in Jerusalem saying, "Repent and be baptized all of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. This promise is for you and for your children, and to all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God shall call." (Acts 2:38-39). So the Gospel began first among the Jews in Jerusalem, and as we see then throughout the cities of Judea, and among the Samaritans. And then God made it clear to St. Peter, through the vision he received, that the Gentiles, no less than the Jews, are included in this call of God to come and trust in the Messiah, to repent, be baptized.

For what does St. Paul say, is He God of the Jews only? Nay, but God of the Gentiles as well. And so in the Messiah God has taken two peoples, formerly divided, but now reconciled and united together as one new people in Jesus. Jew and Gentile, the Gentiles grafted and jointed to Israel through faith in the Messiah. Baptism being the precious and holy sign and seal of God's covenant, which the Apostle calls a circumcision made without hands (Colossians 2:12-13).

"For I am not ashamed of the Gospel, for it is the power of God to save all who believe, the Jew first and also the Greek; for by it the justice of God is revealed from faith to faith, even as it is written, 'The just shall live by faith.'" - Romans 1:16-17

Israel is the Church.
The Church is Israel.
There is only one Body, one faith, and one baptism. So we continue to abide in the teaching we have received from the beginning, as given to us by God, freely, as the Scriptures bear witness to us.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Dan Perez]

I don't believe that this can be argued biblically. The baptism with the Holy Spirit refers to something rather specific in the New Testament, namely what happened on Pentecost. If you look for every use of "baptism with the Holy Spirit" in the New Testament, you'll see that it refers to the outpouring/giving of the Holy Spirit on Pentecost (this includes the "second" Pentecost for the Gentiles that happened at Cornelius' house).

There is no reason to assume that "baptism" used in its ordinary sense refers to anything other than the application of water "in the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit" as Christ instituted in Matthew 28. Hence it is called "baptism in the name of the Lord Jesus" and similar; i.e. baptism by His authority.

Baptism with the Holy Spirit is called baptism by way of analogy, hence St. John the Baptist said, "I baptize you with water, but He who comes after Me, whose sandals I am unworthy to fasten, will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire". It is by analogy, "I baptize you with water" but Christ "baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire". This, as we see, was fulfilled on Pentecost (Acts 1:4-8).

In similar ways Christ speaks of His suffering as an analogy to baptism (Mark 10:38), and St. Paul also uses baptism as analogy for Israel's experience of Exodus (1 Corinthians 10:2).

What justification is there, then, to say that baptism, without any other qualification refers to anything else other than, well, baptism? In a Jewish context "baptism" always refers to tevillah, washing in water. That's why the ritual washing (tevillah) in a ritual bath (mikveh) is called "baptism" in Greek. It's why John's baptism for repentance was in water. And it's why Christian baptism, that Christ instituted, is also with water. Which is why the Ethiopian eunuch says to St. Philip, "Look, here is some water, what prevents me from being baptized?" The eunuch understands, very obviously, that he needed to be baptized as a Christian, and so receives it. Even as the three thousand were baptized upon hearing St. Peter say, "Repent and be baptized, all of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit" (Acts 2:38), even as when the Gospel was preached among the Samaritans we read that they were baptized, but had not yet received chrismation (Acts 8:14-17), and then we have Cornelius and his household receiving baptism after the pouring out of the Spirit (Acts 10:44-48), and likewise the Phillippian jailor and his household (Acts 16:31-34), and also the twelve followers of John the Baptist near Ephesus (Acts 19:1-7).

Baptism and chrismation (the laying on of hands and anointing with oil as the sign and seal of the Holy Spirit) were the normative means of being received into the Church. While chrismation is a complicated subject today, because of certain liturgical and ecclesiastical developments particularly in the West (namely chrismation became confirmation in the medieval west).

But it's abundantly clear from Scripture and ancient Christian practice that baptism is baptism. The one baptism of Ephesians 4 is normative Christian baptism. It's why we see the Lord say in the Gospel of John that we must be born again, and He speaks of new birth as a birth of "water and the Spirit" (John 3:5), it's why St. Paul in Ephesians 5:26 speaks of Christ having cleansed the Church by the "washing of water with the word", and Paul again in Titus 3:5 speaks of the "washing of new birth". It's why St. Peter in 1 Peter 3:21 uses the flood and the ark (famously about water) as a way to speak of the meaning of baptism, saying "this corresponds to baptism which now saves you".

It is simply impossible to separate baptism from water. That would be like trying to separate the Lord's Supper from the bread and wine. That's impossible. Baptism is God's word and promise connected to and with water, even as the Lord's Supper is God's word and promise connected to and with bread and wine. That is why these things are called Sacraments/Holy Mysteries, aka Means of Grace. For God uses material things, connecting His word to them, that His word and promise is expressed in a tangible and visible way: God giving, creating, strengthening, and sustaining our faith by His own word, promise, and grace.

This anti-Sacramental approach of some modern forms of Protestantism is deeply and troublingly unbiblical. And it ultimately is denying God's own power and grace at work in His Church. And as such, people are prone to come up with their own works to try and justify themselves, contrary to the word of God which says we are saved by grace through faith, which is not of ourselves, but the gift of God, not works. Since it is God's grace, then it is God's works and word which confer His gifts and promises, and this He does by His own means, not any means that we ourselves make up for ourselves. God comes down to meet us in our lowliness, we do not rise up to meet God by our own power, will, work, and strength. For God has come down and meets us int he lowliness of the cross, as St. Paul powerfully and profoundly says in Philippians 2: Though being by nature God, Christ did not consider equality with God something to be exploited, but emptied Himself, taking on the form of a slave, and being found in human likeness was obedient, even to the point of death on the cross.

God meets us in the lowliness of the cross, in order the raise us up with Christ. So it is written, "Do you not know that all of you who were baptized were baptized into Christ's death?

"Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? We were buried therefore with Him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life." (Romans 6:3-4)

For we have been clothed with Christ in baptism (Galatians 3:27), we have died and been buried with Christ in baptism (Colossians 2:13-14), we have therefore received God's pledge and promise of a new, renewed, conscience by the power of Christ's resurrection through baptism (1 Peter 3:21).

Not because water is magical, but because God has connected His word and promise to water in this Sacrament of Holy Baptism. Even as He has connected His word and promise to bread and wine in Holy Communion, which is why Christ our Lord says, "This is My body which is broken for you" and "This is the New Covenant in My blood", this we do for the remembrance of Him. Paul saying that this bread and cup are the very partaking (koinonia) of Christ's body and blood (1 Corinthians 10:16), which is why to not discern the body of Christ in the Supper and to partake unworthily is to sin against the body and blood of Christ Himself (1 Corinthians 11:27). These are not mere tokens of meaningles religious ritual. These are means of God's grace, signs and seals of grace, the acts and promises of God together in profound and yet very simple and ordinary things. God has taken ordinary water and attached His own Name to it, "baptize them in the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit", He has taken ordinary bread and wine and declared them to be the flesh and blood of Christ broken and shed for us. That through these we might be strenghtened, sustained, and nourished by God through faith.

-CryptoLutheran

Lets look at Mark 10:38 and 39 .

Verse 38 says , can ye drink of the cup thatv I drink of ? and be BAPTIZED with the BAPTISM that I am BAPTIZED WITH ?


Verse 39 also says uses the same Greek word BAPTISM ,


So are these Greek word BAPTIZED speak about WAYER BAPTISM ?


The Greek in there last sentence DOESNOT use the Greek word BAPTISM ,and just check the Greek text !!

It read BAPTISMA and not BAPTIZE , so check and see and the same problem is in Luke 12:50 , as it also uses the Greek word BAPTISMA and that means WATER is not used .

And other passgae is in 1 Cor 10:2 and reads , And all were BAPTIZED together unto Moses , in the CLOULD and in the SEA !!

Where is the WATER here , in these 3 examples ??

Also there is Water and HOLY SPIRIT BAPTISM in Acts 1:5

dan p

 

[Doug Brents]

Lets look at Mark 10:38 and 39 .

Verse 38 says , can ye drink of the cup thatv I drink of ? and be BAPTIZED with the BAPTISM that I am BAPTIZED WITH ?


Verse 39 also says uses the same Greek word BAPTISM ,


So are these Greek word BAPTIZED speak about WAYER BAPTISM ?


The Greek in there last sentence DOESNOT use the Greek word BAPTISM ,and just check the Greek text !!

It read BAPTISMA and not BAPTIZE , so check and see and the same problem is in Luke 12:50 , as it also uses the Greek word BAPTISMA and that means WATER is not used .

And other passgae is in 1 Cor 10:2 and reads , And all were BAPTIZED together unto Moses , in the CLOULD and in the SEA !!

Where is the WATER here , in these 3 examples ??

Also there is Water and HOLY SPIRIT BAPTISM in Acts 1:5

dan p

Dan, I think I can help answer this.

Baptism simply means to immerse. Baptizo is the verb form of the word, and baptiza is the noun form. But both refer to immersion, or the act of immersion.

The word baptize does not change based on what the person or object is being immersed into. You can be immersed in fire, immersed in the Spirit, immersed in water, immersed in pain, immersed in a foreign language, etc.

There are several baptisms in Scripture, and they are not all the same. In the Old Covenant there were ceremonial washings (baptisms), the Israelites were “baptized” in the Red Sea, and also in the cloud of fire that led them in the desert. In the New Covenant, there is the baptism of the Holy Spirit, and water baptism. And then there is the baptism that Jesus talks of in Mark 10:38-9 which I believe is martyrdom.

The baptism of the Holy Spirit was a powerful, amazing event, and could not be missed. It only occurred twice in all of history: once on Pentecost (the beginning of the Church among the Jews), and again with Cornelius (the beginning of the Church among the Gentiles).

Then there is water baptism. I believe that everywhere else in the NT that baptism is mentioned it is in reference to water baptism, and here is why.

When Phillip was teaching the Ethiopian Eunuch, he had to have taught him about baptism, because it is the Eunuch who sees the water and asks to be baptized (Acts 8:32-38).
In 1 Pet 3:21, using the Flood as an example, Peter says that the water of baptism now saves us through the cleansing of our conscience.
In Acts 22:16, Paul describes his own conversion experience, and he tells of Ananias telling him to get up quickly and be baptized and wash away his sins. If this were Spirit baptism, there would be no need for him to move. The Spirit could come on him with no effort on Paul’s part.
Finally, the Great Commission in Mark 16:16 tells us as believers to go, teach, and baptize those who believe. If it were Spirit Baptism being ordered here, the Spirit would be the One doing it, not the minister or evangelist bringing the Word.

I hope this helped, and look forward to your response.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Lets look at Mark 10:38 and 39 .

Verse 38 says , can ye drink of the cup thatv I drink of ? and be BAPTIZED with the BAPTISM that I am BAPTIZED WITH ?


Verse 39 also says uses the same Greek word BAPTISM ,


So are these Greek word BAPTIZED speak about WAYER BAPTISM ?


The Greek in there last sentence DOESNOT use the Greek word BAPTISM ,and just check the Greek text !!

It read BAPTISMA and not BAPTIZE , so check and see and the same problem is in Luke 12:50 , as it also uses the Greek word BAPTISMA and that means WATER is not used .

And other passgae is in 1 Cor 10:2 and reads , And all were BAPTIZED together unto Moses , in the CLOULD and in the SEA !!

Where is the WATER here , in these 3 examples ??

Also there is Water and HOLY SPIRIT BAPTISM in Acts 1:5

dan p

Here's Mark 10:38-39

ὁ δὲ Ἰησοῦς εἶπεν αὐτοῖς Οὐκ οἴδατε τί αἰτεῖσθε δύνασθε πιεῖν τὸ ποτήριον ὃ ἐγὼ πίνω καί τὸ βάπτισμα ὃ ἐγὼ βαπτίζομαι βαπτισθῆναι οἱ δὲ εἶπον αὐτῷ Δυνάμεθα ὁ δὲ Ἰησοῦς εἶπεν αὐτοῖς Τὸ μὲν ποτήριον ὃ ἐγὼ πίνω πίεσθε καὶ τὸ βάπτισμα ὃ ἐγὼ βαπτίζομαι βαπτισθήσεσθε

The phrase here is: καὶ τὸ βάπτισμα ὃ ἐγὼ βαπτίζομαι βαπτισθῆναι, "and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with"

baptisma is a noun, and of course means "baptism".
baptizomai is a verb in the present passive indicative first person singular, "be baptized"
baptisthenai is a verb in the aorist passive infinitive, "am to be baptized"

Jesus, here, is using the concept of baptism to refer to His Passion. So when the apostles say they can, He tells them they will also experience suffering, hence he uses a similar construction as in verse 38, but uses the word βαπτισθήσεσθε (baptisthesesthe) which is future passive indicative second person plural, "will be baptized".

Which is why I've said that "baptism" is sometimes qualified as something other than the ordinary meaning. This is one of those examples, as is "baptism with the Holy Spirit". Jesus is calling His Passion a "baptism" and a "cup". This isn't the ordinary sense of "baptism", and that is obviously so.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Dan Perez]

What does Jesus say in Matthew 28:19? Baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son, and...?

-CryptoLutheran

Will someone explain 1 Cor 10:2 and al were BAPTIZO unto Moses , in the CLOUD and in the Sea ?

What are your thoughts ?

dan p

 

[ViaCrucis]

Will someone explain 1 Cor 10:2 and al were BAPTIZO unto Moses , in the CLOUD and in the Sea ?

What are your thoughts ?

dan p

The word there is ἐβαπτίσαντο (ebaptisanto) it is the aorist middle indicative third person plural, "they were baptized". Paul uses the idea of baptism to describe Israel's passing through the sea from captivity to Egypt and eventually into the land of promise, "into Moses", that is, the covenant established through Moses. God's action of deliverance and exodus, the establishing of the Covenant at Mt. Horeb, which is what gave Israel her identity as the covenant people of God. Which, of course, foreshadowed the fullness that would come through Jesus Christ.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Dan Perez]

Dan, I think I can help answer this.

Baptism simply means to immerse. Baptizo is the verb form of the word, and baptiza is the noun form. But both refer to immersion, or the act of immersion.

The word baptize does not change based on what the person or object is being immersed into. You can be immersed in fire, immersed in the Spirit, immersed in water, immersed in pain, immersed in a foreign language, etc.

There are several baptisms in Scripture, and they are not all the same. In the Old Covenant there were ceremonial washings (baptisms), the Israelites were “baptized” in the Red Sea, and also in the cloud of fire that led them in the desert. In the New Covenant, there is the baptism of the Holy Spirit, and water baptism. And then there is the baptism that Jesus talks of in Mark 10:38-9 which I believe is martyrdom.

The baptism of the Holy Spirit was a powerful, amazing event, and could not be missed. It only occurred twice in all of history: once on Pentecost (the beginning of the Church among the Jews), and again with Cornelius (the beginning of the Church among the Gentiles).

Then there is water baptism. I believe that everywhere else in the NT that baptism is mentioned it is in reference to water baptism, and here is why.

When Phillip was teaching the Ethiopian Eunuch, he had to have taught him about baptism, because it is the Eunuch who sees the water and asks to be baptized (Acts 8:32-38).
In 1 Pet 3:21, using the Flood as an example, Peter says that the water of baptism now saves us through the cleansing of our conscience.
In Acts 22:16, Paul describes his own conversion experience, and he tells of Ananias telling him to get up quickly and be baptized and wash away his sins. If this were Spirit baptism, there would be no need for him to move. The Spirit could come on him with no effort on Paul’s part.
Finally, the Great Commission in Mark 16:16 tells us as believers to go, teach, and baptize those who believe. If it were Spirit Baptism being ordered here, the Spirit would be the One doing it, not the minister or evangelist bringing the Word.

I hope this helped, and look forward to your response.

And in Eph 4:5 the words in the KJV reads ONE BAPTISM and the Greek reads ONE BAPTISMA , Which means there is no WATER here at all .

In 1 Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto BAPTISMA is the Greek word in the Greek text and does NOT use the Greek word BAPTISM /BAPTIZO ,

dan p

Can youn help me out on 1 Cor 10:2 where it treads that all were BAPTIZED unto Moses , in the CLOUD , and in the SEA ?

This verse Shows

 

[Dan Perez]

And in Eph 4:5 the words in the KJV reads ONE BAPTISM and the Greek reads ONE BAPTISMA , Which means there is no WATER here at all .

In 1 Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto BAPTISMA is the Greek word in the Greek text and does NOT use the Greek word BAPTISM /BAPTIZO ,

dan p

Can youn help me out on 1 Cor 10:2 where it treads that all were BAPTIZED unto Moses , in the CLOUD , and in the SEA

dan p

 

[Doug Brents]

And in Eph 4:5 the words in the KJV reads ONE BAPTISM and the Greek reads ONE BAPTISMA , Which means there is no WATER here at all .

In 1 Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto BAPTISMA is the Greek word in the Greek text and does NOT use the Greek word BAPTISM /BAPTIZO ,

dan p

As I said, the word baptisma is the noun that means immersion according to the Greek lexicon. That word has no bearing on what it is that is being immersed or what it is immersed into. Thus, it requires study to determine who can be immersed and into what.

The several passages I cited tell us that it is someone who believes that Jesus is the Messiah (Christ) that requires immersion. And it is into water that the person must be immersed. Not immersion into the Holy Spirit, not study of the Word, not a life of self sacrifice, …. Immersion into water.

 

[ViaCrucis]

And in Eph 4:5 the words in the KJV reads ONE BAPTISM and the Greek reads ONE BAPTISMA , Which means there is no WATER here at all .

In 1 Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto BAPTISMA is the Greek word in the Greek text and does NOT use the Greek word BAPTISM /BAPTIZO ,

dan p

Can youn help me out on 1 Cor 10:2 where it treads that all were BAPTIZED unto Moses , in the CLOUD , and in the SEA ?

This verse Shows

Baptisma is a noun: "baptism".
Baptizo is a verb, "baptize"

In the context of Christian Baptism, of course water is involved.

-CryptoLutheran