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Romans 4 and Eastern Orthodox soteriology

Discussion in 'St. Justin Martyr's Corner: Debate an Orthodox Chr' started by FreedByte, Jan 9, 2014.

  1. Fotina

    Fotina Regular Member

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  2. abacabb3

    abacabb3 Newbie

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    No disagreements here, I cannot scientifically prove it, it is a presupposition taken entirely by faith.

    My cursory reading of the church fathers is that they would not agree with you in this regard. The Scripture is considered indisputably true and is the only source of doctrine. Philosophy (as science didn't really exist back then) had its uses, but was not independent of Scripture nor could its practice be used to disprove Scripture.

    That's what 2 Tim 3:16 says.

    I would say the one in which had universal agreement over their canonical nature, even from early on. This excludes most of the deuterocanonical works. Certain NT works had their detractors, such as 2 Peter, but especially by the 4th and 5th centuries the canon that existed in the west and found in the Vulgate is a good place to start.

    I have read all the deuterocanonical works and do respect them, but if you were serious about exploring their canonical status, I can get more specific.

    The Christian ascetic grounds himself in Scripture.

    They are. In many countries, they still pray to statues.

    Are you representative of most eastern orthodox with this opinion?

    God works all things for good, sometimes even death.

    See, you say that but I never said that. We are new creations in Christ and no longer lust after the things we did when we were children of wrath.

    among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others. (Eph 2:3)

    Now we do the good works that God has prepared beforehand for us to do (as discussed in EPh 2:10)

    The Bible says that and you are correct in this.

    The Bible never says this and it in fact says the opposite. Such an understanding of Scripture is incomplete.

    I hate to say it, but no church now is like the early church.
     
  3. gurneyhalleck1

    gurneyhalleck1 Reader

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    Why do I feel like I'm in St. Justin's watching a Sola Scriptura debate between a Calvinist and an Orthodox Christian? :eek::confused:
     
  4. ArmyMatt

    ArmyMatt Regular Member Supporter

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    and neither of us actually said what you are accusing us of saying. what I posted is merely historic fact. and if you really follow St Paul, you should probably try to find the oral tradition that he tells us to follow.

    so says you. but remember that we look at the Old in light of the New. the Semitic mind is very different from the Greek mind. I don't deny the Scripture, I deny how you read it as true. and again, while that speaks of God's actions, nowhere does it speak of the king's will. I agree He turns it where He wishes, what I don't agree with is that He does it without taking into consideration how He made man. remember, the NT is what shed's light on the Old, so you cannot just wrench a line of Scripture out and say HA! see? I am right. Mormons do that too.

    does not say anything about the King's will being forced upon by God.

    only if I read it like you do, and I don't. I love how Protestants always love coming on here to educate us poor Orthodox on what the Bible means. and all they do is rehash what they think it means, and what they think we say it means, without handling either.
     
  5. abacabb3

    abacabb3 Newbie

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    Actually, both of you did and I quoted the bible and two church fathers. No one has shown that what I have said is out of context or inaccurate.

    That really doesn't matter, it still says what it says and says what it means. I don't deny the Scripture, I deny how you read it as true.

    Actually, it does, that's why it refers to reason. There isn't any other valid interpretation to describe how his reason has changed, apart from the effecting of the will.

    God can affect will just like he can can affect other human faculties, such as vision (see Paul, Tobit, etc.). This is consistent with the nature of a sovereign God.

    Well we have two OT examples in Pharoah and Nebuchadnezzar, and we have an explanation of how this occurs in Romans 9. We have explicit things in Ephesians and 2 Corinthians that show that man is not fully autonomous of God, that God can make him a new creation.

    So, what I see is denial after denial, but never anything from the Scriptures that shows that the interpretation I am putting forward is wrong.

    Does man have free will? Of course. Are the words "free will" in the Bible? No. Does God ultimately have the power to override man's free will when He so chooses? Yes, and the Bible has specific instances of this. If you do not understand this, you have an incomplete picture of the Christian religion.

    [quote[only if I read it like you do, and I don't. [/quote]
    That's fine, but how exactly can it be understood otherwise?

    I think your tone is not civil, just so you know.
     
  6. ArmyMatt

    ArmyMatt Regular Member Supporter

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    actually, neither of us did. I know I didn't. I even said to check out St Maximos the Confessor and the Philokalia.

    it actually does, since the Gospel was written for the nations and the Jews, whereas the OT was written for the Jews. the Greek mindset is very different than the Semetic.

    actually it doesn't, because reason and will are not the same thing. and a change or an influence on someone are not the same as forcing his hand, especially internally.

    no one denies what He CAN do, but what He DOES do.

    we don't need to requite Scriptures just to say that is not the way we read it. all you do is just rehash THAT you are correct, and you have found some lines that you say back up what you are claiming. yet none of it is clear. nowhere in your example of Daniel is the King's will actually forced by God. it doesn't say it. you are merely doing what Mormons do to defend their Arianism.

    no one denies this.

    it's not that I don't understand it, it's that I reject it. I was Protestant for many years, so I made all the arguments that you are making.

    in the light of the Church that produced it, for that Church's reasons.

    you are a guest on our forum, you are debating which violates our rules (although you can go to town in St Justin's), and you said I said things that I don't actually say. your line a few posts above about my apparent "incomplete view of religion" proves that point.
     
  7. truefiction1

    truefiction1 Fool

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    Please forgive me, Abaccab3, for sharing my honest evaluation, as follows:

    What I see in you is a highly intelligent person who is operating from a much narrower frame of reference than that which you are capable, by failing to transcend the influence of your particular culture and particular childhood experience upon your understanding. This, unfortunately, is rather common amongst us and is the reason why we've been squabbling with each other. We have a situation here in which people have vastly different views as to the nature of reality, yet each one believed his or her own view to be the correct one since it is based on the microcosm of personal experience. And to make matters worse, most of us are not even fully aware of our own word views, much less the uniqueness of the experience from which they are derived. Each of us has basic assumptions dictating the way that we think about things. We're not usually aware of our own assumptions nor the fact that the people we're trying to communicate with are operating from a different set of assumptions.

    So, we are indeed like the three proverbial blind men, each in touch with only his particular piece of the elephant yet each claiming to know the nature of the whole beast. Se we argue over our different microcosmic world views, and all wars are holy wars, because our world views are our religions. But, a world-view, or religion, will not save any one of us. It is abundantly evident that belief in God is often destructively dogmatic in this way. Many have been turned off to belief in God for this very reason. But is it belief in God that is a fault for such behaviors, or is it dogmatism?

    You seem to be claiming that you are a person who is saved by the grace of God. Terrific! I sincerely hope your claim is right. But I prefer not to limit a religious discussion to only what is explicitly stated in Scripture, because such an approach leaves out the greater part of humanly known reality, resulting in the very limited picture of Christianity that you seem to think we all have. You're so attached to your own highly dogmatic soteriological belief, citing Scripture to prove your case, desiring so strongly to be convinced in your heart that you are saved because you are right, whereas those who disagree with you are not because they are wrong. So salvation is now reverted back to a product of works: only ones who believe correctly about things are saved, or only those who belong to the right religion or practice the right practices are saved. No, salvation has nothing to do with one's being the owner of the above mentioned things. It is found only when realizes they utterly shipwrecked, lost, and in need of Divine guidance.

    "Jesus said unto them, 'If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.'" (John 9:41)

    I am blind and greatly in need of learning, so I turn to repentance, prayer, fasting, the meditation upon Scripture, my everyday experience, pondering upon humanity, history, and the discoveries of the various branches of science. I don't know if you're saved or not. God knows. I only know that it's better for me to be a doer of God's law than a judge of it. Better for all of us, actually, because it would save us from repeating our past atrocities against one another, committed in the name of dogma.

    I think I'm done now. I have to attend to my studies as I'm way behind. God be with you, Abacabb3.
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2014
  8. Knee V

    Knee V It's phonetic.

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    If I may, I'll chime in WRT God hardening Pharaoh's heart as described in Romans:

    Paul does not elaborate on this mystery as much as some would like to think he does. Paul, after discussing that God's ways are beyond us and that it is not our place to judge what God does, he does *not* say, "In order to make his wrath and power known, God bore patiently with the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction..." Rather, Paul does much the same thing that Christ did when His disciples asked about John's future, "If it be my will that he remain until I come, what is that to you?" But that is not the same as saying that John would live indefinitely until Christ returns. Likewise, Paul presents us with a hypothetical situation to silence those who would judge God, "What if God did such and such? What is that to you?"
     
  9. LilLamb219

    LilLamb219 The Lamb is gone Supporter

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    MOD HAT ON

    [​IMG]
    Please remember the following rules when posting here:
    Congregational Forum Restrictions, Christian Only Forums, and Off-Topic posts
    Do not teach or debate in any Congregational Forum unless you are truly a member and share its core beliefs and teachings. Questions and fellowship are allowed, proselytizing is not.


    So if you are not a member of this congregational forum, you are allowed to ask questions and make fellowship posts but not debate.

    MOD HAT OFF
     
  10. abacabb3

    abacabb3 Newbie

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    Good point. Being that I'll stop debating, I think it is important to understand the nature of Paul's rhetorical question in the context of the whole chapter. Does the chapter specifically say that God can love one from birth and hate the other? Does the chapter say that God has mercy on some and hardening others? Does the chapter say it depends on the man who wills or God who has mercy? When God asks the rhetorical question in verse 22, how specifically does he answer it in verse 23?

    If we can answer these questions, we can understand what God is saying in all of this.
     
  11. buzuxi02

    buzuxi02 Veteran

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    Well this thread was 7 pages of nonsense.
     
  12. GreekOrthodox

    GreekOrthodox Psalti Chrysostom

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    Why is who gets the credit so important (in some cases, the ONLY thing that matters) in western soteriology? It seems that the fact that a sinner is now counted among the saints is unimportant.
     
  13. ArmyMatt

    ArmyMatt Regular Member Supporter

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    nowhere in that verse does it say that God overrides man's will. nothing posted has actually said anything like that. one can certainly say He can (in that He has the power to, being God), and one can say that He certainly influences and inspires and drives, and certainly acts upon folks. but it does not say that He forces their will. it just doesn't.
     
  14. dogs4thewin

    dogs4thewin dog lover Supporter CF Ambassadors

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    Mod hat on

    This thread was moved from TAW for debate by non members which is a violation of forum rules

    mod hat off
     
  15. FreedByte

    FreedByte .

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    I haven't been paying attention to this thread for awhile now, and I started the thread.

    I skimmed through what became of this thread and it looks like calvinism is involved, yet my starting post had nothing to do with calvinism.

    Additionally, I would like the thread to be moved back to TAW. I did not start this thread to debate an Orthodox Christian, I started this thread to hear the response of an Orthodox Christian.
     
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