Romans 4 and Eastern Orthodox soteriology

abacabb3

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I don't disagree with you on this regard, but face it, you and you alone have chosen to believe that Scripture is what you believe it to be
No disagreements here, I cannot scientifically prove it, it is a presupposition taken entirely by faith.

I don't make scripture the only source of knowledge, by my choice, because I understand that it can easily be misinterpreted, especially by those lacking in emotional intelligence and psychological (spiritual) maturity.

My cursory reading of the church fathers is that they would not agree with you in this regard. The Scripture is considered indisputably true and is the only source of doctrine. Philosophy (as science didn't really exist back then) had its uses, but was not independent of Scripture nor could its practice be used to disprove Scripture.

Breathed, really?
That's what 2 Tim 3:16 says.

And which canon of Scripture is the real McCoy?
I would say the one in which had universal agreement over their canonical nature, even from early on. This excludes most of the deuterocanonical works. Certain NT works had their detractors, such as 2 Peter, but especially by the 4th and 5th centuries the canon that existed in the west and found in the Vulgate is a good place to start.

I have read all the deuterocanonical works and do respect them, but if you were serious about exploring their canonical status, I can get more specific.

It is also the way of a Christian ascetic, and yes, it is dangerous, but irreplaceable as a source of truth.
The Christian ascetic grounds himself in Scripture.

But our Bible would have many of us believe that those standing outside of Christianity are totally godless.
They are. In many countries, they still pray to statues.

What really happened is that the Hebrews murdered and slaughtered those people because they wanted to steel what they had, then they justified it by believing that they were God's favored people and therefore had the right to kill those godless outsiders.
Are you representative of most eastern orthodox with this opinion?

neither their faith in God nor their search for answers in the Bible could save the millions of victims of the bubonic plague, who turned to both in order to spare their loved ones this horrid death.
God works all things for good, sometimes even death.

But given your logic, then "Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked, declares the Lord God, and not rather that he should turn from his way and live?" means that none of us have anything to worry about regardless of our wickedness, because God wills us to turn from our wicked ways and live, and what God wills God makes happen, and we have absolutely no choice in the matter -- we're all saved in the end and that's that! Awsome! I can go and covet my neighbor's wife now.

See, you say that but I never said that. We are new creations in Christ and no longer lust after the things we did when we were children of wrath.

among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others. (Eph 2:3)

Now we do the good works that God has prepared beforehand for us to do (as discussed in EPh 2:10)

The Church and the Bible teach us that God desires all to turn to Him and receive the kind of Life that only He can give, and stands at the door of our hearts knocking
The Bible says that and you are correct in this.

and it is left up to us whether to let Him in and how long to let Him remain there.
The Bible never says this and it in fact says the opposite. Such an understanding of Scripture is incomplete.

Yes, we know this too. It is from our subjective experience within the Church. We've been living this way since Pentecost and will continue to do so until the return of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.

I hate to say it, but no church now is like the early church.
 
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ArmyMatt

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Just to remind you:
" seeing as how it took a generation after the ascension for the Apostles to start writing, and 400 years for the NT to be codified into that canon that we know, it is not the final authority in the sense that you mean."

This is what truefiction said:
"I personally temper my understanding of scripture with the knowledge that its writers and editors were much more limited in their understanding of many objective realities than we ourselves are today"

If any of you today have a better understanding of God than St. Paul, as you are implicitly saying here, then I must vehemently disagree and cling to the authority of Scripture.

and neither of us actually said what you are accusing us of saying. what I posted is merely historic fact. and if you really follow St Paul, you should probably try to find the oral tradition that he tells us to follow.

1. Would it even matter if it did, because it took centuries to codify the Scriptures?
2. An honest reading of the text does not allow this interpretation:

"The king’s heart is like channels of water in the hand of the Lord;
He turns it wherever He wishes." (Prov 21:1)

This is the proper context to understand Daniel 4:24-25

so says you. but remember that we look at the Old in light of the New. the Semitic mind is very different from the Greek mind. I don't deny the Scripture, I deny how you read it as true. and again, while that speaks of God's actions, nowhere does it speak of the king's will. I agree He turns it where He wishes, what I don't agree with is that He does it without taking into consideration how He made man. remember, the NT is what shed's light on the Old, so you cannot just wrench a line of Scripture out and say HA! see? I am right. Mormons do that too.

"[Daniel says, "]this is the interpretation, O king, and this is the decree of the Most High, which has come upon my lord the king: that you be driven away from mankind and your dwelling place be with the beasts of the field, and you be given grass to eat like cattle and be drenched with the dew of heaven; and seven [x]periods of time will pass over you, until you recognize that the Most High is ruler over the realm of mankind and bestows it on whomever He wishes."

And then

Immediately the word concerning Nebuchadnezzar was fulfilled; and he was driven away from mankind and began eating grass like cattle, and his body was drenched with the dew of heaven until his hair had grown like eagles’ feathers and his nails like birds’ claws. "But at the end of that period, I, Nebuchadnezzar, raised my eyes toward heaven and my reason returned to me, and I blessed the Most High and praised and honored Him who lives forever" (33, 34)

does not say anything about the King's will being forced upon by God.

God took away his reason and turned him into a beast, manipulating him like water. It is fine if you don't want to believe what the Scripture says, but clearly that is what it says!

only if I read it like you do, and I don't. I love how Protestants always love coming on here to educate us poor Orthodox on what the Bible means. and all they do is rehash what they think it means, and what they think we say it means, without handling either.
 
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abacabb3

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and neither of us actually said what you are accusing us of saying. what I posted is merely historic fact. and if you really follow St Paul, you should probably try to find the oral tradition that he tells us to follow.
Actually, both of you did and I quoted the bible and two church fathers. No one has shown that what I have said is out of context or inaccurate.

but remember that we look at the Old in light of the New. the Semitic mind is very different from the Greek mind.
That really doesn't matter, it still says what it says and says what it means. I don't deny the Scripture, I deny how you read it as true.

and again, while that speaks of God's actions, nowhere does it speak of the king's will.
Actually, it does, that's why it refers to reason. There isn't any other valid interpretation to describe how his reason has changed, apart from the effecting of the will.

God can affect will just like he can can affect other human faculties, such as vision (see Paul, Tobit, etc.). This is consistent with the nature of a sovereign God.

remember, the NT is what shed's light on the Old, so you cannot just wrench a line of Scripture out and say HA! see? I am right. Mormons do that too.
Well we have two OT examples in Pharoah and Nebuchadnezzar, and we have an explanation of how this occurs in Romans 9. We have explicit things in Ephesians and 2 Corinthians that show that man is not fully autonomous of God, that God can make him a new creation.

So, what I see is denial after denial, but never anything from the Scriptures that shows that the interpretation I am putting forward is wrong.

Does man have free will? Of course. Are the words "free will" in the Bible? No. Does God ultimately have the power to override man's free will when He so chooses? Yes, and the Bible has specific instances of this. If you do not understand this, you have an incomplete picture of the Christian religion.

[quote[only if I read it like you do, and I don't. [/quote]
That's fine, but how exactly can it be understood otherwise?

I love how Protestants always love coming on here to educate us poor Orthodox on what the Bible means. and all they do is rehash what they think it means, and what they think we say it means, without handling either.

I think your tone is not civil, just so you know.
 
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ArmyMatt

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Actually, both of you did and I quoted the bible and two church fathers. No one has shown that what I have said is out of context or inaccurate.

actually, neither of us did. I know I didn't. I even said to check out St Maximos the Confessor and the Philokalia.

That really doesn't matter, it still says what it says and says what it means. I don't deny the Scripture, I deny how you read it as true.

it actually does, since the Gospel was written for the nations and the Jews, whereas the OT was written for the Jews. the Greek mindset is very different than the Semetic.

Actually, it does, that's why it refers to reason. There isn't any other valid interpretation to describe how his reason has changed, apart from the effecting of the will.

actually it doesn't, because reason and will are not the same thing. and a change or an influence on someone are not the same as forcing his hand, especially internally.

God can affect will just like he can can affect other human faculties, such as vision (see Paul, Tobit, etc.). This is consistent with the nature of a sovereign God.

no one denies what He CAN do, but what He DOES do.

Well we have two OT examples in Pharoah and Nebuchadnezzar, and we have an explanation of how this occurs in Romans 9. We have explicit things in Ephesians and 2 Corinthians that show that man is not fully autonomous of God, that God can make him a new creation.

So, what I see is denial after denial, but never anything from the Scriptures that shows that the interpretation I am putting forward is wrong.

we don't need to requite Scriptures just to say that is not the way we read it. all you do is just rehash THAT you are correct, and you have found some lines that you say back up what you are claiming. yet none of it is clear. nowhere in your example of Daniel is the King's will actually forced by God. it doesn't say it. you are merely doing what Mormons do to defend their Arianism.

Does man have free will? Of course. Are the words "free will" in the Bible? No. Does God ultimately have the power to override man's free will when He so chooses?

no one denies this.

Yes, and the Bible has specific instances of this. If you do not understand this, you have an incomplete picture of the Christian religion.

it's not that I don't understand it, it's that I reject it. I was Protestant for many years, so I made all the arguments that you are making.

That's fine, but how exactly can it be understood otherwise?

in the light of the Church that produced it, for that Church's reasons.

I think your tone is not civil, just so you know.

you are a guest on our forum, you are debating which violates our rules (although you can go to town in St Justin's), and you said I said things that I don't actually say. your line a few posts above about my apparent "incomplete view of religion" proves that point.
 
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So, what I see is denial after denial, but never anything from the Scriptures that shows that the interpretation I am putting forward is wrong.

Does man have free will? Of course. Are the words "free will" in the Bible? No. Does God ultimately have the power to override man's free will when He so chooses? Yes, and the Bible has specific instances of this. If you do not understand this, you have an incomplete picture of the Christian religion.

Please forgive me, Abaccab3, for sharing my honest evaluation, as follows:

What I see in you is a highly intelligent person who is operating from a much narrower frame of reference than that which you are capable, by failing to transcend the influence of your particular culture and particular childhood experience upon your understanding. This, unfortunately, is rather common amongst us and is the reason why we've been squabbling with each other. We have a situation here in which people have vastly different views as to the nature of reality, yet each one believed his or her own view to be the correct one since it is based on the microcosm of personal experience. And to make matters worse, most of us are not even fully aware of our own word views, much less the uniqueness of the experience from which they are derived. Each of us has basic assumptions dictating the way that we think about things. We're not usually aware of our own assumptions nor the fact that the people we're trying to communicate with are operating from a different set of assumptions.

So, we are indeed like the three proverbial blind men, each in touch with only his particular piece of the elephant yet each claiming to know the nature of the whole beast. Se we argue over our different microcosmic world views, and all wars are holy wars, because our world views are our religions. But, a world-view, or religion, will not save any one of us. It is abundantly evident that belief in God is often destructively dogmatic in this way. Many have been turned off to belief in God for this very reason. But is it belief in God that is a fault for such behaviors, or is it dogmatism?

You seem to be claiming that you are a person who is saved by the grace of God. Terrific! I sincerely hope your claim is right. But I prefer not to limit a religious discussion to only what is explicitly stated in Scripture, because such an approach leaves out the greater part of humanly known reality, resulting in the very limited picture of Christianity that you seem to think we all have. You're so attached to your own highly dogmatic soteriological belief, citing Scripture to prove your case, desiring so strongly to be convinced in your heart that you are saved because you are right, whereas those who disagree with you are not because they are wrong. So salvation is now reverted back to a product of works: only ones who believe correctly about things are saved, or only those who belong to the right religion or practice the right practices are saved. No, salvation has nothing to do with one's being the owner of the above mentioned things. It is found only when realizes they utterly shipwrecked, lost, and in need of Divine guidance.

"Jesus said unto them, 'If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.'" (John 9:41)

I am blind and greatly in need of learning, so I turn to repentance, prayer, fasting, the meditation upon Scripture, my everyday experience, pondering upon humanity, history, and the discoveries of the various branches of science. I don't know if you're saved or not. God knows. I only know that it's better for me to be a doer of God's law than a judge of it. Better for all of us, actually, because it would save us from repeating our past atrocities against one another, committed in the name of dogma.

I think I'm done now. I have to attend to my studies as I'm way behind. God be with you, Abacabb3.
 
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Knee V

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If I may, I'll chime in WRT God hardening Pharaoh's heart as described in Romans:

Paul does not elaborate on this mystery as much as some would like to think he does. Paul, after discussing that God's ways are beyond us and that it is not our place to judge what God does, he does *not* say, "In order to make his wrath and power known, God bore patiently with the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction..." Rather, Paul does much the same thing that Christ did when His disciples asked about John's future, "If it be my will that he remain until I come, what is that to you?" But that is not the same as saying that John would live indefinitely until Christ returns. Likewise, Paul presents us with a hypothetical situation to silence those who would judge God, "What if God did such and such? What is that to you?"
 
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abacabb3

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If I may, I'll chime in WRT God hardening Pharaoh's heart as described in Romans:

Paul does not elaborate on this mystery as much as some would like to think he does. Paul, after discussing that God's ways are beyond us and that it is not our place to judge what God does, he does *not* say, "In order to make his wrath and power known, God bore patiently with the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction..." Rather, Paul does much the same thing that Christ did when His disciples asked about John's future, "If it be my will that he remain until I come, what is that to you?" But that is not the same as saying that John would live indefinitely until Christ returns. Likewise, Paul presents us with a hypothetical situation to silence those who would judge God, "What if God did such and such? What is that to you?"

Good point. Being that I'll stop debating, I think it is important to understand the nature of Paul's rhetorical question in the context of the whole chapter. Does the chapter specifically say that God can love one from birth and hate the other? Does the chapter say that God has mercy on some and hardening others? Does the chapter say it depends on the man who wills or God who has mercy? When God asks the rhetorical question in verse 22, how specifically does he answer it in verse 23?

If we can answer these questions, we can understand what God is saying in all of this.
 
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GreekOrthodox

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Let’s not get confused. There is a difference in chronology: grace first, then faith and then works. God gets all the glory. He is the beginner and perfecter of our faith (Hebrews 12:2). That’s why chronology puts grace first. You don’t have faith by your own free will, it is “not of yourselves, it is the gift of God.”

Why is who gets the credit so important (in some cases, the ONLY thing that matters) in western soteriology? It seems that the fact that a sinner is now counted among the saints is unimportant.
 
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ArmyMatt

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Good point. Being that I'll stop debating, I think it is important to understand the nature of Paul's rhetorical question in the context of the whole chapter. Does the chapter specifically say that God can love one from birth and hate the other? Does the chapter say that God has mercy on some and hardening others? Does the chapter say it depends on the man who wills or God who has mercy? When God asks the rhetorical question in verse 22, how specifically does he answer it in verse 23?

If we can answer these questions, we can understand what God is saying in all of this.

nowhere in that verse does it say that God overrides man's will. nothing posted has actually said anything like that. one can certainly say He can (in that He has the power to, being God), and one can say that He certainly influences and inspires and drives, and certainly acts upon folks. but it does not say that He forces their will. it just doesn't.
 
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Well this thread was 7 pages of nonsense.

I haven't been paying attention to this thread for awhile now, and I started the thread.

I skimmed through what became of this thread and it looks like calvinism is involved, yet my starting post had nothing to do with calvinism.

Additionally, I would like the thread to be moved back to TAW. I did not start this thread to debate an Orthodox Christian, I started this thread to hear the response of an Orthodox Christian.
 
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