Romans 4 and Eastern Orthodox soteriology

[gurneyhalleck1]

I like you, Freed, a lot. You're a thinking person with a good heart for God. You'd make an OUTSTANDING Orthodox Christian! If you notice one thing about all these good people in this subforum who are converts, there isn't a dumb one in the bunch nor are any of them less than extremely thoughtful and analytical. Orthodox converts tend to be people who have reasoned things very carefully, weighed things, prayed hard, and taken a journey that they feel in their heart is the Truth. I think everyone here will agree with me that you're doing the right thing asking, testing, praying, and seeking in such a thoughtful manner. God bless you!

Now, as far as Confession, I've often heard in Orthodoxy that Confession can be seen not as imputation alone, but a type of grafting. It's like we're being re-grafted to the tree of Christ.

Look at sin through the original language. Sin is hamartia or, "missing the mark." When we sin, we miss the target. The target is theosis---to be like God! Confession is not just God declaring something, we believe there is a SUPERNATURAL element to it of God re-orienting our hearts, souls, and intellects back to the origin....back to Him! Orthodoxy is VERY supernatural and we're unapologetic about that fact! That's why we baptize AND chrismate little children and allow the tiniest child to take Communion! We believe the supernatural is in play and is VERY powerful!

In Confession, Father reads the prayer "for if you were to mark our sins, Oh Lord, who could stand!?" and I think it's important to remember that sin is being forgotten by God. He is not holding it against us, yes. So on that aspect, you're right! He's not holding something against us, but rather sending us back into grace-filled travels with Him to jump back on the road to Theosis. Think of Confession more of Christ giving us a GPS to get back on the right highway rather than the legal ramifications, I think.

Orthodoxy has a lot of emphasis to it. We acknowledge there is blood sacrifice, there is imputation, there is law and such, but we EMPHASIZE the medicinal aspects, the conquest of death aspects, the renewal and rebooting of the human condition.

The West focuses on atonement and reconciliation. Is that wrong? Not necessarily. But we emphasize trampling death and renewing life and healing the damaged human condition. Christ the Victim in the West is Christ the Victor in the East. We tend to emphasize those things. Just read the troparia and kontakia on Sunday's DL and you'll see that quickly!

I think my last word of advice, is to quit thinking "systematically" about salvation. As a Western Christian, you've been taught and conditioned to do that. I know I was! It is a paradigm shift, but once you get out of systematic salvation, you'll be SOOOO much healthier and happier and holier! If you ever notice something about my Orthodox brethren and our patriarchs, bishops, priests, deacons, and all here, you ever notice we don't talk about how to be "saved" in the end? We don't focus on systems, endgames, and how to be saved from hell. We focus on the WALK here and now and loving God, drawing near to Him.

I like the image of St. George and the Dragon, one of my FAVORITE icons! That lovely image is YOU AND I! We fight our dragons daily, man. We just fight. And I love the image of the Resurrection where Christ pulls up Adam and Eve from Hades. That's you and me, too, bro! We fight the dragon, but we don't do it alone with our own strength. We do it with Our Lord! We walk with our master and copy Him, ask for aid.

Just focus on that master and apprentice mindset. That helps me! Draw near to the Lord as your master and you the apprentice. Listen to what He says and how He admonishes you. You fall, confess. You go take your medication to stay holy---the Eucharist! Stay close to the Master's mother!----the Theotokos! More honorable than the Cherubim, more Glorious beyond compare than the Seraphim! Follow the saints because they've learned to follow the Master better than you or I! Whereas this world looks at inappropriate content and the windows to hell, you look at icons, the windows to heaven and the holy things that lift us up! So salvation isn't confessing some intellectual assent. It's not a one-time gig. It's not a formula, and it's NOT intellectual understandings only. It's about walking with the master.

Who will be saved? Don't focus on that. Focus on hoping to be more like our God. Trust Him.

That's true, I was just trying to point out that there is some form of imputation going on here.

Also, in receiving absolution by confessing our sins to God with a priest as a witness, is that not a form of imputed righteousness? while simultaneously working to impart righteousness?

 

[abacabb3]

I think we would agree with your first point totally (even St Paul said this), but the reason that God changed him was that he was open to change. deep down he sought after God in all the wrong places until God showed him what was up. if our minds are only ever set on evil (we say they are inclined to evil), no one would have ever listened to God.

To be fair, Paul called himself "the chief of sinners." So, even the greatest of sinners are open to change? Then, who is incapable of it? Sounds like God trasmuting "slime" to me.

A woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple fabrics, a worshiper of God, was listening; and the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul. (Acts 16:14)

It seems less that the convert's heart is "open to change," but rather God opens thew heart of the convert.


A Christian who has faith in Jesus Christ, but has no evidence in his life of that faith, simply is a liar and is faithless. None of this denounces salvation by grace, through faith. Let’s look at the key passage in Scripture in Ephesians:

For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them. (Eph 2:8-10)

Let’s not get confused. There is a difference in chronology: grace first, then faith and then works. God gets all the glory. He is the beginner and perfecter of our faith (Hebrews 12:2). That’s why chronology puts grace first. You don’t have faith by your own free will, it is “not of yourselves, it is the gift of God.”

However, there is a coexistence of all three (grace, faith, and works) once the ball starts rolling. God’s reason in saving a people by grace is so that they would do good works that He has planned out that had to be done since before the beginning of time. So, God justifies believers before they do the good works He has ordained for them to do, not spur them to good works so that later He can declare them justified. To discount this entirely is to ignore the overwhelming message of Scripture.

This is an Eastern Orthodox subforum, so I will be respectful and bow out unless addressed.

 

[Lukaris]

From abacab 3 # 22:


However, there is a coexistence of all three (grace, faith, and works) once the ball starts rolling. God’s reason in saving a people by grace is so that they would do good works that He has planned out that had to be done since before the beginning of time. So, God justifies believers before they do the good works He has ordained for them to do, not spur them to good works so that later He can declare them justified. To discount this entirely is to ignore the overwhelming message of Scripture.

Our works are our faith in action that we do in service to God (Ephesians 6:7-8), we are like soldiers (Ephesians 6:10-17), we must always pray (Ephesians 6:18) for ourselves & others. Doing what the Lord tells us to give alms (Matthew 6:1-4) & to pray for ourselves & others daily via His prayer (Matthew 6:9-13) is living our faith.

Surely the interrelation of works within St. Paul's letter (or preaching) in Hebrews:
Hebrews 10:23-11:2

King James Version (KJV)

23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised)
24And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
32 But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye were illuminated, ye endured a great fight of afflictions;
33 Partly, whilst ye were made a gazingstock both by reproaches and afflictions; and partly, whilst ye became companions of them that were so used.
34 For ye had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance.
35 Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward.
36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.
37 For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.
38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.
11 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
2 For by it the elders obtained a good report.

 

[truefiction1]

That’s why chronology puts grace first. You don’t have faith by your own free will, it is “not of yourselves, it is the gift of God.”

... And what wisdom does one call upon when claiming that a person is not free to reject any gift of God, or to accept it and carry the burden of the consequences? Yes, all is gift. But no one is forced to walk the path that increases those gifts. Have you heard the Lord's parable of the talents?

 

[abacabb3]

... And what wisdom does one call upon when claiming that a person is not free to reject any gift of God, or to accept it and carry the burden of the consequences?

The wisdom of the Holy Spirit given to St. Paul.

For it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure. (Phil 2:13)


For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.” So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.” Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens. (Romans 9:15-18)

This is why St. Augustine speaks of us cooperating with God's mercy, because though we have free will, God's mercy clearly shapes our will and efforts. We are not autonomous free agents. Only God is autonomous.

 

[truefiction1]

The wisdom of the Holy Spirit given to St. Paul.

For it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure. (Phil 2:13)


For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.” So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.” Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens. (Romans 9:15-18)

This is why St. Augustine speaks of us cooperating with God's mercy, because though we have free will, God's mercy clearly shapes our will and efforts. We are not autonomous free agents. Only God is autonomous.

Cooperation seems to imply personal will. Beings without personal will are not persons at all, but mere objects manipulated by a puppetmaster, so to speak: lifeless, really. But as is written, "He is a God of the living, not of the dead". So friendship with God is freely chosen, as per His design.

But as you aren't really presenting anything incorrect here, I've no reason to argue against it. The problem we have, if any, is related more to the atoneing work of Christ and wherein lies its saving, or healing power. Here, I believe there is a good deal of misunderstanding on the part of many Christians, who tend to see it in terms of a sacrifice that has somehow changed the disposition of God toward mankind (borrowing largely from the Old testament imagery of sacrifice under the Mosaic law). But think about it. Do we really believe that God's disposition was ever in need of change? Do we really think, even for a second, that the problem was on God's end? I don't, because I know that it was really our own guilty conscience which needed to be overcome in order that we might be able to properly approach God, as well as our utter defeat by our mortality. God's suffering and death as one of us, followed by His glorious resurrection, if we truly believe, accomplishes both the cleansing of our conscience as well as the annihilation of the terror of death, and sets us upon the path of righteousness by the power of the grace of the Holy Spirit.

That's all.

 

[ArmyMatt]

To be fair, Paul called himself "the chief of sinners." So, even the greatest of sinners are open to change? Then, who is incapable of it? Sounds like God trasmuting "slime" to me

everyone is capable, in the sense they have free will and can choose it. and everyone can choose to darken themselves as well, where they would rather God harden their heart than soften it.

It seems less that the convert's heart is "open to change," but rather God opens thew heart of the convert.

He does, just because they are open to change, God still is the one who has to thaw it.

Let’s not get confused. There is a difference in chronology: grace first, then faith and then works. God gets all the glory. He is the beginner and perfecter of our faith (Hebrews 12:2). That’s why chronology puts grace first. You don’t have faith by your own free will, it is “not of yourselves, it is the gift of God.”

we don't dispute this, I have free will because God made me free, I have faith because I know God who calls me.

However, there is a coexistence of all three (grace, faith, and works) once the ball starts rolling. God’s reason in saving a people by grace is so that they would do good works that He has planned out that had to be done since before the beginning of time. So, God justifies believers before they do the good works He has ordained for them to do, not spur them to good works so that later He can declare them justified. To discount this entirely is to ignore the overwhelming message of Scripture.

no, to discount this is to ignore how you interpret Scripture. but anyways, we don't see it as much that He planned in the sense that He forced whatever good works I have done, but rather that He saw them and they are apart of His plan from before the foundation of the world.

For it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure. (Phil 2:13)

we know

For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.” So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.” Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens. (Romans 9:15-18)

but nothing there shows anything about either Moses or Pharaoh's condition. God hardens those who want their hearts hardened, God softens those who want their hearts softened. and God is the one who does it and it is part of His plan for His glory before creation.

This is why St. Augustine speaks of us cooperating with God's mercy, because though we have free will, God's mercy clearly shapes our will and efforts. We are not autonomous free agents. Only God is autonomous.

no dispute here

 

[ArmyMatt]

That's a good way of thinking about it, but can we ever be completely loving? I'm not trying to nag, but if we are still imperfect at the final judgement doesn't God have to declare us perfect by Jesus' blood if we are to be allowed into Heaven?

well, the perfect human is the one who is always being perfected. since God is love and God is infinite, that means that we always grow in that love, and love Him, creation, each other, etc exponentially forever.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Okay but let's say someone is still sinning before they die, what happens to them?

God knows and He takes care of them. He is a consuming fire, so if they reject their sinfulness, God's presence purifies them. if they hold on to whatever they were doing, His presence burns them. St Maximos the confessor points out that the same sun will both harden clay and melt wax. it is the nature of what is in the presence of the sun that determines what happens (even though it is the sun that is doing the hardening or melting). with God and the sinner it is the same way. God Is that He Is, and He does not change. but we can and do.

 

[Knee V]

That's true, I was just trying to point out that there is some form of imputation going on here.

Also, in receiving absolution by confessing our sins to God with a priest as a witness, is that not a form of imputed righteousness? while simultaneously working to impart righteousness?

I was about to ask you more about your point of view, but I foresee the possibility of us talking past each other. So to help avoid that, how are you defining and understanding "imputation"?

 

[abacabb3]

He does, just because they are open to change, God still is the one who has to thaw it.

If God is the initiator, He is the reason, not the free will of man. God is clearly acting as a manipulator, nudging our hearts this or that way to bring about the desired result He knows He wants. This is clearly what happened to Lydia when she believed and what happened to Pharaoh when he hardened his heart. God was the initiator, and His divine wisdom, he guaranteed the result.

I have free will because God made me free, I have faith because I know God who calls me.

Well, you are putting an emphasis on "free will" that is foreign to Scripture. God does not obsess over our free will. We don't merely "know" God calls us and then we have faith. How do we know? God prepares the heart of the believer, because He as work in the believer without the believer's consent. Likewise, God is known to prepare the hearts of unbelievers, like Pharaoh.

For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.

But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth. It was for this He called you through our gospel, that you may gain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. (2 Thessalonians 2:11-14)

Paul did not call believers to the Gospel. God made the call.

no, to discount this is to ignore how you interpret Scripture.

No, the message of Ephesians 2:8-10 is about the relationship between grace, faith and works. God by grace gives people faith, and in doing so,, their faith compels them to do the good works which God in His foreknowledge prepared for them to do.

What other interpretation can there be? This is by far the simplest.

We don't see it as much that He planned in the sense that He forced whatever good works I have done, but rather that He saw them and they are a part of His plan from before the foundation of the world.

No, He did more than see ahead in the future, He literally "is at work in you, both to will and to work." (Phil 2:13) You are incorrect to say God merely saw it, He literally accomplished it through you.

we know

^^^Maybe not? Your previous quote actually contradicted what God clearly said about it.

Augustine put it succinctly:

It is, however, only because He works good works in good men, of whom it is said, It is God which works in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure, Philippians 2:13 that the Psalm has it, as just now quoted: He crowns you with mercy and compassion, since it is through His mercy that we perform the good deeds to which the crown is awarded. It is not, however, to be for a moment supposed, because he said, It is God that works in you both to will and to do of his own good pleasure, that free will is taken away. If this, indeed, had been his meaning, he would not have said just before, Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. Philippians 2:12 For when the command is given to work, their free will is addressed; and when it is added, with fear and trembling, they are warned against boasting of their good deeds as if they were their own, by attributing to themselves the performance of anything good. It is pretty much as if the apostle had this question put to him: Why did you use the phrase, 'with fear and trembling'? And as if he answered the inquiry of his examiners by telling them, For it is God which works in you. Because if you fear and tremble, you do not boast of your good works— as if they were your own, since it is God who works within you.

but nothing there shows anything about either Moses or Pharaoh's condition. God hardens those who want their hearts hardened, God softens those who want their hearts softened.

The "who want" part isn't in the original Scripture, right? I believe you are adding an emphasis that is not only incorrect, it directly contradicts St. Paul.

for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls, it was said to her, “The older will serve the younger.” Just as it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.” (Rom 9:11-13)

The babies before they were born did not desire hardened or blessed hearts, but God called one and not the other. "He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires." (Rom 9:18) Not, He has mercy on whom desires mercy, and He hardens whom desires hardening.

It sounds to me as far as soteriology goes, what you are asserting is not biblically consistent, nor is it the understanding of the fathers of the church.

 

[abacabb3]

Cooperation seems to imply personal will. Beings without personal will are not persons at all, but mere objects manipulated by a puppetmaster, so to speak: lifeless, really. But as is written, "He is a God of the living, not of the dead". So friendship with God is freely chosen, as per His design.

Well, to paraphrase RC Sproul, God is often presented as an "irresistible force," but man at the same time is an immovable object as it pertains to his personal will. However, I believe the Scripture reflects that when push comes to shove, when the irresistible force collides with the immovable object, the immovable object will prove to be movable after all when on a collision course with an irresistible force.

So, men are free agents in all affairs until God deliberately acts upon them in some specific way. And, at that juncture personal will can and is superseded by the divine will. This is what happened to Paul, Lydia and all other believers.

They all therefore were glorified and magnified, not through
themselves or their own works or the righteous doing which they
wrought, but through His will.

And so we, having been called through His will in Christ Jesus, are
not justified through ourselves or through our own wisdom or
understanding or piety or works which we wrought in holiness of
heart, but through faith, whereby the Almighty God justified all men
that have been from the beginning; to whom be the glory for ever and
ever. Amen. (Clem 32:3-4)

I hope this clarifies things.

 

[truefiction1]

Freedom is the only thing that is clear. It is the only meaning that life can possibly have. It is life, and it is His gift to us. And although we might never find it except by His grace, it is always within our power to choose freedom, or to reject it in our preference for the comfort of slavery. Exercising freedom is hard and it is painful, which is why most prefer to remain in bondage. God's grace does not trump the freewill of His sons and daughters. How God accomplishes this is a mystery beyond intellectual comprehension, yet revealed by the Holy Spirit to the saints, none of whom would credit themselves with anything at all accept their own sinfulness and helplessness, even though they chose to remain steadfast in exercising their God-given freedom.

The Apostle Paul knew these things, which is why he could talk about being saved by faith and not by any works or will of his own but completely by the mercy of God on the one hand, yet strongly admonishing his spiritual children to remain steadfast in their faith on the other hand, imploring them to work out their salvation with "fear and trembling", lest Satan, who roams about like a ravenous lion looking for someone to devour, should tempt them into turning their backs on freedom.

With regards to Mr. RC Sproul, let us clarify the nature of this "irresistable force" with these words of the Lord: "Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me." (Rev 3:20) We must decide to open the door for The Lord, He doesn't bust it down and force Himself on us.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Great post, TF. If possible, I'd like to add a stick to this subforum making it illegal to mention the name RC Sproul! LOL!!!

You're right about freedom. In the end, not only does it help us to truly LOVE because we have a choice NOT to, but it also helps us make sense as to why there is so much evil in the world, so much injustice. So many people make poor use of their freedom, and shackle their souls, taking others down with them. To live in the mindset of a Calvinist must be a type of mental and spiritual prison that I find unfathomable...Thanks be to God for the Fathers and the spiritual clarity of the Holy Orthodox Church!

Freedom is the only thing that is clear. It is the only meaning that life can possibly have. It is life, and it is His gift to us. And although we might never find it except by His grace, it is always within our power to choose freedom, or to reject it in our preference for the comfort of slavery. Exercising freedom is hard and it is painful, which is why most prefer to remain in bondage. God's grace does not trump the freewill of His sons and daughters. How God accomplishes this is a mystery beyond intellectual comprehension, yet revealed by the Holy Spirit to the saints, none of whom would credit themselves with anything at all accept their own sinfulness and helplessness, even though they chose to remain steadfast in exercising their God-given freedom.

The Apostle Paul knew these things, which is why he could talk about being saved by faith and not by any works or will of his own but completely by the mercy of God on the one hand, yet strongly admonishing his spiritual children to remain steadfast in their faith on the other hand, imploring them to work out their salvation with "fear and trembling", lest Satan, who roams about like a ravenous lion looking for someone to devour, should tempt them into turning their backs on freedom.

With regards to Mr. RC Sproul, let us clarify the nature of this "irresistable force" with these words of the Lord: "Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me." (Rev 3:20) We must decide to open the door for The Lord, He doesn't bust it down and force Himself on us.

 

[FreedByte]

I like you, Freed, a lot. You're a thinking person with a good heart for God. You'd make an OUTSTANDING Orthodox Christian! If you notice one thing about all these good people in this subforum who are converts, there isn't a dumb one in the bunch nor are any of them less than extremely thoughtful and analytical. Orthodox converts tend to be people who have reasoned things very carefully, weighed things, prayed hard, and taken a journey that they feel in their heart is the Truth. I think everyone here will agree with me that you're doing the right thing asking, testing, praying, and seeking in such a thoughtful manner. God bless you!

Thank you so much for this

Now, as far as Confession, I've often heard in Orthodoxy that Confession can be seen not as imputation alone, but a type of grafting. It's like we're being re-grafted to the tree of Christ.

Look at sin through the original language. Sin is hamartia or, "missing the mark." When we sin, we miss the target. The target is theosis---to be like God! Confession is not just God declaring something, we believe there is a SUPERNATURAL element to it of God re-orienting our hearts, souls, and intellects back to the origin....back to Him! Orthodoxy is VERY supernatural and we're unapologetic about that fact! That's why we baptize AND chrismate little children and allow the tiniest child to take Communion! We believe the supernatural is in play and is VERY powerful!

I am coming to understand this more fully as time goes on

In Confession, Father reads the prayer "for if you were to mark our sins, Oh Lord, who could stand!?" and I think it's important to remember that sin is being forgotten by God. He is not holding it against us, yes. So on that aspect, you're right! He's not holding something against us, but rather sending us back into grace-filled travels with Him to jump back on the road to Theosis. Think of Confession more of Christ giving us a GPS to get back on the right highway rather than the legal ramifications, I think.

Good way to think about it

I have a side question, do you know what the exact dialogue is between the priest and the parishoner? I have heard that in some Lutheran churches, the minister says things like "I absolve your sins" or "through me your sins are forgiven" (not sure to what extent it's true). Does this happen in Orthodox confessions, or does the priest make it clear that he is only a witness? Is there an example dialogue that I can read somewhere?

Orthodoxy has a lot of emphasis to it. We acknowledge there is blood sacrifice, there is imputation, there is law and such, but we EMPHASIZE the medicinal aspects, the conquest of death aspects, the renewal and rebooting of the human condition.

Ahh now this makes sense. Emphasis vs acknowledgement.

The West focuses on atonement and reconciliation. Is that wrong? Not necessarily. But we emphasize trampling death and renewing life and healing the damaged human condition. Christ the Victim in the West is Christ the Victor in the East. We tend to emphasize those things. Just read the troparia and kontakia on Sunday's DL and you'll see that quickly!

Very, very well said.

I think my last word of advice, is to quit thinking "systematically" about salvation. As a Western Christian, you've been taught and conditioned to do that. I know I was! It is a paradigm shift, but once you get out of systematic salvation, you'll be SOOOO much healthier and happier and holier! If you ever notice something about my Orthodox brethren and our patriarchs, bishops, priests, deacons, and all here, you ever notice we don't talk about how to be "saved" in the end? We don't focus on systems, endgames, and how to be saved from hell. We focus on the WALK here and now and loving God, drawing near to Him.

I like the image of St. George and the Dragon, one of my FAVORITE icons! That lovely image is YOU AND I! We fight our dragons daily, man. We just fight. And I love the image of the Resurrection where Christ pulls up Adam and Eve from Hades. That's you and me, too, bro! We fight the dragon, but we don't do it alone with our own strength. We do it with Our Lord! We walk with our master and copy Him, ask for aid.

Just focus on that master and apprentice mindset. That helps me! Draw near to the Lord as your master and you the apprentice. Listen to what He says and how He admonishes you. You fall, confess. You go take your medication to stay holy---the Eucharist! Stay close to the Master's mother!----the Theotokos! More honorable than the Cherubim, more Glorious beyond compare than the Seraphim! Follow the saints because they've learned to follow the Master better than you or I! Whereas this world looks at inappropriate content and the windows to hell, you look at icons, the windows to heaven and the holy things that lift us up! So salvation isn't confessing some intellectual assent. It's not a one-time gig. It's not a formula, and it's NOT intellectual understandings only. It's about walking with the master.

Who will be saved? Don't focus on that. Focus on hoping to be more like our God. Trust Him.

so true, very wise words

 

[FreedByte]

God knows and He takes care of them. He is a consuming fire, so if they reject their sinfulness, God's presence purifies them. if they hold on to whatever they were doing, His presence burns them. St Maximos the confessor points out that the same sun will both harden clay and melt wax. it is the nature of what is in the presence of the sun that determines what happens (even though it is the sun that is doing the hardening or melting). with God and the sinner it is the same way. God Is that He Is, and He does not change. but we can and do.

excellent explanation

 

[FreedByte]

I was about to ask you more about your point of view, but I foresee the possibility of us talking past each other. So to help avoid that, how are you defining and understanding "imputation"?

God "crediting" righteousness to a sinful person

sort of like being absolved from sins and then having Christ's righteousness seen in our place.

 

[abacabb3]

Freedom is the only thing that is clear. It is the only meaning that life can possibly have. It is life, and it is His gift to us. And although we might never find it except by His grace, it is always within our power to choose freedom, or to reject it in our preference for the comfort of slavery.

Remove the underlined, and you can find abundant Scriptures for that. With the underlined, you just contradicted Scripture. We know of Pharoah, we know of Paul, we know of Lydia, we know of Nebuchadnezzar. Clear biblical examples where their hearts were changed and it was not fully in their power alone. Yet you say the opposite. What specific example do you have for this in Scripture?

In the Book of Daniel, King Nebuchadnezzar is humbled and turned into a crazed lunatic that lives as an animal in the wilderness, against his own free will. When God brings him back to his senses, he declares, “All the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, but He does according to His will in the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of earth; And no one can ward off His hand or say to Him, ‘What have You done?’” (Dan 4:35)

Nothing can ward off God! The inhabitants of earth? They are nothing! The host of heaven? He can do what He wills with them! No one can council God and tell Him what is right and wrong!

Remember the story of the pharaoh in Exodus who wouldn’t let Moses and his people go? Was God sitting idly by prolonging the Israelites slavery? No! He was actively taking part in prolonging it by hardening the pharaoh’s heart!

The LORD said to Moses, “When you go back to Egypt see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders which I have put in your power; but I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go. (Exodus 4:21)

Why did God do all of this? He explains:
Then the LORD said to Moses, “Go to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the heart of his servants, that I may perform these signs of Mine among them, and that you may tell in the hearing of your son, and of your grandson, how I made a mockery of the Egyptians and how I performed My signs among them, that you may know that I am the LORD.” (Exodus 10:1-3)

God affected the free will of pharaoh in order so that we may know how powerful and irresistible or God truly is.

God makes the idea very clear throughout the Bible put perhaps the clearest is when He says, “For My own sake, for My own sake, I will act; For how can My name be profaned? And My glory I will not give to another.” (Isaiah 48:11)

This is why Christians believe “it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.” We cannot choose God. The Bible is clear about this:

All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out…No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. (John 6:37, 44)

Paul continues in Romans:
You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory. (Romans 9:19-23)

Interestingly enough, the underlined is exactly what God answers Job, so we are not intellectually up to par to question God’s justice. But then, Paul gives us this clue: “He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy.” So, God in His perfect righteousness violates the free will of all, because in God accomplishing this glory, riches and mercy in their truest sense are achieved. Only with the existence of wrath is the existence of grace magnified to its greatest extent. That way God is the most merciful and loving God possible, the “just and the justifier,” the greatest of all.

Remember, God "works all things after the counsel of His will" (Ephesians 1:11). Not man's will, or some things, but rather all things.

We are forced to admit, God can do what He wills with whom He wills. The fact he gives us free will over our own affairs does not mean He is incapable of tampering with it, that is my point.

With regards to Mr. RC Sproul, let us clarify the nature of this "irresistable force" with these words of the Lord: "Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me." (Rev 3:20) We must decide to open the door for The Lord, He doesn't bust it down and force Himself on us.

We need to understand those words with the preponderance of Scripture just quoted.

"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day."

Sounds to me when Christ knocks on the metaphorical door, those whom the Father has had written in His book of life since before creation (Rev 17:8) will be drawn by the Holy Spirit to open that door. Then, Christ enters in.

Now, to read that the way you would like to read it would be like so: "Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and opens the door all on His own and with no divine prodding affecting his will, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me."

The problem is the italics you add in your mind are not there and would contradict other Scripture. If I added in place of those italics by the grace of the Holy Spirit you would find no contradiction in Scripture, but an entirely different emphasis. I think it is much wiser to go with the interpretation that makes sense with the rest of Scripture, not the one that would contradict it.

 

[truefiction1]

@abaccabb3. I personally temper my understanding of scripture with the knowledge that its writers and editors were much more limited in their understanding of many objective realities than we ourselves are today, and that they were addressing a specific audience at the time of writing and editing and had what they thought was an important agenda and critical social problems/threats to address. I don't hold it to be an infallible and flawless source of truth because it was written and edited by fallible men and is read and interpreted by the same. But even so, my interpretation of Revelation 3:20 neither contradicts other scripture when correctly interpreted, nor does it contradict simple reason.

If God hardens someone's heart to commit evil against someone, does this mean that this one is not responsible for the evil committed by him or her, so that they will not ultimately be held accountable for evil that they knowingly perpetrated? But we know that "personal responsibility" is what we must all embrace in life as a rule. Once a person accepts personal responsibility for doing good and turning away from evil, then that person will discover that they are free beings, even if limited by their finite and frail human form. Most people, however, we think will not choose freedom. It is the "road less traveled". Christ chose freedom. His decision to suffer and die the way that He did was the ultimate act of human freedom, and in keeping with the way He lived His human life. He did not want to endure his passion, but He chose to do it anyway, because He knew that it needed to be done and that it was His responsibility to do it. Many of His disciples did the same, and many of them also sacrificed a great deal for the Truth of personal freedom. Will you now seek to stomp out the fire of that truth by emphasizing a systematic understanding of salvation which verges on being an idea that takes away all of mankind's personal responsibility for the good or the evil perpetrated by him? Please tell us that, as a follower of Christ, you do not intend to do this.

We understand about God's choice and His grace being the driving force behind everything, even our own faith and works -- we really do. But to lose sight of our personal responsibility of choosing correctly so that we fail to exercise our freedom to choose God's goodness over our own lives could severely hinder our spiritual growth and development into free beings in the image and likeness of Christ God. And that would really stink, would it not?

We say, "Let us exercise our freedom muscles and make them as big as ever. Let the workout begin within our own hearts."

 

[ArmyMatt]

If God is the initiator, He is the reason, not the free will of man.

no one disputes this

God is clearly acting as a manipulator, nudging our hearts this or that way to bring about the desired result He knows He wants. This is clearly what happened to Lydia when she believed and what happened to Pharaoh when he hardened his heart. God was the initiator, and His divine wisdom, he guaranteed the result.

well, what He wants is all to be saved. so He moves to save the most that He can without violating our will, not so much because He can't as much as because He won't. and He sees the result since He sees all as one moment being outside of time. He does not guarentee anything aside from who He is and what He will do. He sees what we do and knows what do to with us.

Well, you are putting an emphasis on "free will" that is foreign to Scripture. God does not obsess over our free will. We don't merely "know" God calls us and then we have faith. How do we know? God prepares the heart of the believer, because He as work in the believer without the believer's consent. Likewise, God is known to prepare the hearts of unbelievers, like Pharaoh.

no said He obesses over our free will, and how do you know that my emphasis is foreign to Scripture? your final points I see nothing wrong with.

Paul did not call believers to the Gospel. God made the call.

no disputes here

No, the message of Ephesians 2:8-10 is about the relationship between grace, faith and works. God by grace gives people faith, and in doing so,, their faith compels them to do the good works which God in His foreknowledge prepared for them to do.

What other interpretation can there be? This is by far the simplest.

unless they don't want to do good works. someone can have faith in God and want nothing to do with Him.

No, He did more than see ahead in the future, He literally "is at work in you, both to will and to work." (Phil 2:13) You are incorrect to say God merely saw it, He literally accomplished it through you.

I did not say He merely saw it, that He saw it. I was not discussing His action through me.

^^^Maybe not? Your previous quote actually contradicted what God clearly said about it.

not really, you are assuming things that I typed, that I have not actually typed.

It is, however, only because He works good works in good men, of whom it is said, It is God which works in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure, Philippians 2:13 that the Psalm has it, as just now quoted: He crowns you with mercy and compassion, since it is through His mercy that we perform the good deeds to which the crown is awarded. It is not, however, to be for a moment supposed, because he said, It is God that works in you both to will and to do of his own good pleasure, that free will is taken away. If this, indeed, had been his meaning, he would not have said just before, Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. Philippians 2:12 For when the command is given to work, their free will is addressed; and when it is added, with fear and trembling, they are warned against boasting of their good deeds as if they were their own, by attributing to themselves the performance of anything good. It is pretty much as if the apostle had this question put to him: Why did you use the phrase, 'with fear and trembling'? And as if he answered the inquiry of his examiners by telling them, For it is God which works in you. Because if you fear and tremble, you do not boast of your good works— as if they were your own, since it is God who works within you.

no disputes

The "who want" part isn't in the original Scripture, right? I believe you are adding an emphasis that is not only incorrect, it directly contradicts St. Paul.

well, it's in the Gospels when Christ laments for Jerusalem, so yeah it's there.

for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls, it was said to her, “The older will serve the younger.” Just as it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.” (Rom 9:11-13)

The babies before they were born did not desire hardened or blessed hearts, but God called one and not the other. "He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires." (Rom 9:18) Not, He has mercy on whom desires mercy, and He hardens whom desires hardening.

because God is outside of time. He saw Jacob and Esau and knew their hearts. so He knew who to call, and who not to call.

It sounds to me as far as soteriology goes, what you are asserting is not biblically consistent, nor is it the understanding of the fathers of the church.

then you need to read the Philokalia a little closer, especially St Maximos the Confessor. it's not Biblically consistant to how you see it that is true, many Protestants say that about us.