Romans 4 and Eastern Orthodox soteriology

Feb 2, 2013
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I know I just posted a thread of questions, but I think this one really deserves its own thread because it is so critical.

I really admire how well the Orthodox view of salvation makes sense of the Gospel. In the Western views, you get caught up in faith vs works and can only confusingly explain why Christ needed to suffer, die, AND rise again, rather than just suffer for our sins. By contrast, the Orthodox view of the atonement holds that by entering and defeating death by rising again, Christ saved us from sin and its consequence: death.


The Orthodox view, however, seems to lack in explaining certain passages that protestants use as passages that are central to their theology. Most notably, Romans 4 and how righteousness was credited to Abraham because of his faith.

Romans 4:1-8 said:
4 What then will we say that Abraham, our forefather, has found according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not toward God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now to him who works, the reward is not counted as grace, but as something owed. 5 But to him who doesn’t work, but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness. 6 Even as David also pronounces blessing on the man to whom God counts righteousness apart from works,
7 “Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven,
whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man whom the Lord will by no means charge with sin.”

How are passages such as this incorporated into Orthodox soteriology?
 

Lukaris

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We understand what St. Paul teaches us re faith & salvation. Individuals like the thief on the cross are saved upon their confession unto death in the circumtances they are in. Those who have lives that are more blessed have a commitment to apply good works to their faith & to be an example of salvation to their neighbor:


Acts 26:20

King James Version (KJV)

20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.


Ephesians 2:8-10

King James Version (KJV)

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.


St. Paul in the same epistle to the Romans later lays out the basics for everyday life also. He is preaching the theology of our salvation & then returns to a most basic point in our everyday living:

Romans 13:8-10

King James Version (KJV)

8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
 
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There are several factors to consider. Firstly, when Paul traveled and evangelized and started churches, it was a targeted venture. Paul would travel, visit synagogues, worship with the Jews, and preach Christ in the synagofues. His intended audience was primarily Jews. The churches that Paul writes to were started by believing Jews which only later incorporated Gentiles. This is why in so many of his letters a prominent theme is the relationship between Jews and Gentiles.

There were two main things that could cause one of those believing Jews to think that he is better than one of the Gentile believers, giving him occasion to boast to that Gentile: being of pure stock directly from Abraham himself, and having perfectly (well, "perfectly") observed the Law of Moses his whole life. And Paul addresses both of these problems numerous times throughout his epistles, and he tackles both in his epistle to the Romans.

And they both deal with a fundamental issue: "how do I relate to God, and what is the basis of that relationship?" Some of the believing Jews saw that basis as being their Jewishness: "the Law of Moses and the covenant of circumcision is the basis for my relationship to God, and Christ makes that more complete." In other words, Christ is added as a supplement to something else.

What Paul does to counter that is to invoke Abraham, the one that these Jews are also invoking. Abraham entered into a relationship with God, and it was while he was an uncircumcised Gentile. It would have been impossible for Abraham to approach God on the basis of his circumcision, for he wasn't circumcised yet, and it would have been impossible for him to approach God on the basis of adherence to the Law, for the Law was not yet given. And that is exactly what Paul means by "works". Paul is not referring to "action" or to "doing things" or "having a soul lighter than a feather" or anything like that. By "works", Paul means "adhering to the Law ("Torah" of Moses) and circumcision as the basis for our relationship with God." (James, on the other hand, was having an entirely different discussion, using "works" in an entirely different way)

Paul's point is that of the standard that the Jewish believers were using were true, then it would have to apply to all people at all times. But for Abraham - the uncircumcised Gentile - it was impossible to meet that standard, and that standard had nothing to do with his relationship with God.

What happens in most Protestant/Evangelical exegesis of this passage is that they miss the forest for the trees. They hone in on a few buzzwords (faith, imputation, etc), and then overdefine them, making Paul out to say something that he is not saying at all. Paul's point is not to give a technical definition of "imputation", nor to describe technical formula whose end result equals justification. Paul's point is that circumcision, adherence to the Law, and a good pedigree have nothing to do with our relationship with God. Rather, our relationship is based on God's promises in Christ, which Paul a little later frames in the context of baptism (more specifically dying and rising with Him, but which God uses baptism to accomplish). That is the point Paul is making. Getting technical with "imputation" and what not is beyond the scope of what Paul is saying, and it misses the bigger picture and the broader context.
 
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Additionally, all of Romans needs to be understood in that context, of explaining why believing Jews are no better off than the Gentiles and why they are all in the same boat, and why they are all the same in God's eyes. Everything Paul says in this epistle and every point he makes is done so in order to drive home that overall point. For example, Paul doesn't teach "total depravity" in chapter 3; he teaches that Jews are equally as sinful as the Gentiles. He doesn't teach "original sin" in chapter 5; he teaches that the human sinful condition affects Jews as much as it affects Gentiles.
 
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Lukaris, Matt, and Knee-V are all right. In the Scriptures, we see faith and we see works. Paul speaks to the people of his age, the Jewish people, who were living under this Pharisaic mentality in which they felt the Law of Moses would save them. Obviously that's not the case. Paul wants to emphasize the fact that the "works" or "Torah" of Moses's Law will NOT save because nobody can live up to those expectations. And it's true! It's impossible to completely live the Torah! And with Torah comes not just behavioral expectations, but rituals and requirements and legalistic hurdles that Paul is telling the reader of his Epistles are dead because they are fulfilled in Christ Jesus.

Paul is saying that faith is the main operation of the walk with Christ and he's 100% correct. No Orthodox Christian will disagree. Paul is saying that faith is 100% a gift, grace is 100% a free token given to us of God's love. NOTHING we have in the way of salvation is thanks to us! It's free! But it comes with a price, the blood of Christ Himself and His conquest of death.

Abraham is a prefiguration of all this. He lived prior to the Law and loved God with that free, imputed gift. And it's important to really look at the term "imputation" with Paul. In Protestant, western eyes, "imputation" is viewed through the prism of a prisoner who is horrible given a free get out of jail card that says he is something that he really is not--good. We get back to that Martin Luther analogy of a wedding dress covered in manure, which is a sickening imagery if you ask me and NOT one that God would approve of!

We are not rotting slime that God just "declares" good and lies about it. God cannot lie. God will not and cannot proclaim something good that is rotten. I think it's helpful to look at the Greek word pistis that Paul uses. It is translated most appropriately as "faithfulness" rather than just "faith." In other words, just affirming or acknowledging or declaring Christ as Savior isn't an instant bar code scanned to "make" us righteous. We have to have pistis, or "faithfulness" that is ONGOING! The loyal walk we have with the Lord is continual. It is a walk, a journey, abiding, like following a friend wherever he goes. it is companionship, faithfulness, shadowing, loving, and ultimately obedient. It is like an apprentice to a master craftsman. You show up, you obey his commands and do what he says. You watch his craft, mimic it, ask questions, participate, try to do the craft, admit to the master when you screw up and ask for advice, and you stick with the craft. That is how I view Paul's pistis talk.

And which person does Paul point out as the epitome of pistis? ABRAHAM! And rightfully so! Abraham exhibits the quality of simple faith and following and obedience that existed prior to the Law. And we must remember that the Mosaic Law is very legal, very ritualistic, very mechanical, and impossible to follow to the letter.

So in light of that, is faith just an affirmation or one-time declaration like we hear Protestants say, "I was saved back in 1977!" How? How is salvation a one-time affirmation? Is faith just intellectual assent? Because the Scriptures tell us that EVEN SATAN intellectually affirms and knows who God is! Is he saved then?

So instead of intellectual assent, faith is an ongoing walk that involves faith, worship, love, obedience, perseverance, admission of frailty, and so much more. It means trying to do good works while acknowledging that those works are done in God's grace thanks to God's grace and the salvific gifts we have are freely given, imputed, by Christ to us. Without those gifts we cannot do good works and grow in faith or holiness!

Orthodoxy is shown to be the True Faith for many reasons, and one of those proofs is how they never made the fatal mistake of dissecting truth into controversial semantic little puzzles. Faith is the nucleus, the engine that drives works. Works are evidence of the fact that we receive God's love and walk in that continual pistis rather than just giving a dry affirmation or declaration. The engine is faith. Without the gift of faith, freely given us that we cannot generate on our own for the heck of it, we cannot do good works and respond to God. So why separate the works and faith? Do we do this in "real life?" I love my kids. FACT. I try to educate them, clothe and feed them, share the faith with them, play with them, entertain and give them smiles and laughter, protect them, care for them when they're sick, cherish them, and make them feel self-worth. Most of all I try to make them good Orthodox Christians. So, my love is there and the works are the first-fruits, the evidence, the product. How could I love them and then neglect them and do nothing? But that love is a gift, the impetus.

Faith and works, imputation, law, all these things have been so warped by the West.

And I guess this might sound bad to say----but I'm just SO GLAD to no longer be in either Catholic OR Protestant worlds to have to care about this stuff anymore! Becoming Orthodox made me so SANE and just grounded in real common sense theology in Christ. Thanks be to God! :crosseo::)
 
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Shieldmaiden4Christ

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I think we have to be careful in understanding what works meant in Romans (works are Mosaic Law here) versus what works meant in James (faith without orthopraxy is a hollow faith). We also have to be careful not to pick out one verse of the Bible to the exclusion of maintaining an holistic understanding of the text.
 
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abacabb3

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We are not rotting slime that God just "declares" good and lies about it. God cannot lie. God will not and cannot proclaim something good that is rotten.
Paul seemed pretty rotten before God changed him. I think to view humans as anything other than sinners who's minds are set on evil continually is unbiblical.
 
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Paul seemed pretty rotten before God changed him. I think to view humans as anything other than sinners who's minds are set on evil continually is unbiblical.

I think we're not quite on the same page here.

What we're not saying is that we aren't sinners. Gurney's point is that the act of justification itself is not one of legal fiction, bit is an actual change; it is an ontological "something" that happens to us. Righteousness is something that is intrinsic to God alone, and which we receive from Christ. We receive Christ's righteousness and are thus *made* righteous.
 
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Paul seemed pretty rotten before God changed him. I think to view humans as anything other than sinners who's minds are set on evil continually is unbiblical.

I think we would agree with your first point totally (even St Paul said this), but the reason that God changed him was that he was open to change. deep down he sought after God in all the wrong places until God showed him what was up. if our minds are only ever set on evil (we say they are inclined to evil), no one would have ever listened to God.
 
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You all make excellent points, I just have a clarification about this (I bolded the sections I am referencing):

We are not rotting slime that God just "declares" good and lies about it. God cannot lie. God will not and cannot proclaim something good that is rotten. I think it's helpful to look at the Greek word pistis that Paul uses. It is translated most appropriately as "faithfulness" rather than just "faith." In other words, just affirming or acknowledging or declaring Christ as Savior isn't an instant bar code scanned to "make" us righteous. We have to have pistis, or "faithfulness" that is ONGOING! The loyal walk we have with the Lord is continual. It is a walk, a journey, abiding, like following a friend wherever he goes. it is companionship, faithfulness, shadowing, loving, and ultimately obedient. It is like an apprentice to a master craftsman. You show up, you obey his commands and do what he says. You watch his craft, mimic it, ask questions, participate, try to do the craft, admit to the master when you screw up and ask for advice, and you stick with the craft. That is how I view Paul's pistis talk.

And which person does Paul point out as the epitome of pistis? ABRAHAM! And rightfully so! Abraham exhibits the quality of simple faith and following and obedience that existed prior to the Law. And we must remember that the Mosaic Law is very legal, very ritualistic, very mechanical, and impossible to follow to the letter.


If the law is impossible and we cannot be good, then at the final judgement, doesn't God have to "declare you good" to some extent?
 
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You all make excellent points, I just have a clarification about this (I bolded the sections I am referencing):




If the law is impossible and we cannot be good, then at the final judgement, doesn't God have to "declare you good" to some extent?

I think this is what He does when He says "I was thirsty and you gave me drink, hungry and you gave me something to eat, sick and in prison and you visited me... you did it to the least of these, My servants, so you did it to Me".

As God is Love, so those who Love Him become Love also. This is the meaning of salvation, and outside of it there is no salvation. It is not a legal definition. It is a real change of a person.
 
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I think this is what He does when He says "I was thirsty and you gave me drink, hungry and you gave me something to eat, sick and in prison and you visited me... you did it to the least of these, My servants, so you did it to Me".

As God is Love, so those who Love Him become Love also. This is the meaning of salvation, and outside of it there is no salvation. It is not a legal definition. It is a real change of a person.

That's a good way of thinking about it, but can we ever be completely loving? I'm not trying to nag, but if we are still imperfect at the final judgement doesn't God have to declare us perfect by Jesus' blood if we are to be allowed into Heaven?
 
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That's a good way of thinking about it, but can we ever be completely loving? I'm not trying to nag, but if we are still imperfect at the final judgement doesn't God have to declare us perfect by Jesus' blood if we are to be allowed into Heaven?

Actually, you can indeed become completely loving. The first martyr, Stephen, showed himself to be when he prayed for the forgiveness of those who were stoning him to death. This capacity for perfect love is one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit, and the greatest gift of all. By this gift we are made righteous.
 
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Actually, you can indeed become completely loving. The first martyr, Stephen, showed himself to be when he prayed for the forgiveness of those who were stoning him to death. This capacity for perfect love is one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit, and the greatest gift of all. By this gift we are made righteous.


Okay but let's say someone is still sinning before they die, what happens to them?
 
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We are given 2 (and I think it's only 2) descriptions of the judgment in Scripture, one from the Gospels (I think only in Matthew's) and one in Revelation. In Revelation, the judgment consists of revealing whose names are and are not written in the Book of Life. In Matthew, the judgment consists of Christ telling us whether or not He knows us. In neither description is it a "court room" setting, and neither scenario consists of verdicts of innocent and guilt.
 
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We are given 2 (and I think it's only 2) descriptions of the judgment in Scripture, one from the Gospels (I think only in Matthew's) and one in Revelation. In Revelation, the judgment consists of revealing whose names are and are not written in the Book of Life. In Matthew, the judgment consists of Christ telling us whether or not He knows us. In neither description is it a "court room" setting, and neither scenario consists of verdicts of innocent and guilt.

That's true, I was just trying to point out that there is some form of imputation going on here.

Also, in receiving absolution by confessing our sins to God with a priest as a witness, is that not a form of imputed righteousness? while simultaneously working to impart righteousness?
 
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