Romans 3:23 - Does "all" really mean "all"?

[stumpjumper]

Well... This begs the question....

If "all" in Romans 3:23 neccesarily means each and every person born since Adam who had a Father (Jesus of Nazareth is still excluded because he was born of the Holy Spirit) then that means that the all in Romans 5:18 also means each and every individual born naturally.

Why does the first all (still pas here) in Romans 5:18 neccesarily mean "all men" while the second "all", in the very same sentence and context, does not?

[bible]Romans 5:18[/bible]

 

[holdon]

Well... This begs the question....

If "all" in Romans 3:23 neccesarily means each and every person born since Adam who had a Father (Jesus of Nazareth is still excluded because he was born of the Holy Spirit) then that means that the all in Romans 5:18 also means each and every individual born naturally.

Why does the first all (still pas here) in Romans 5:18 neccesarily mean "all men" while the second "all", in the very same sentence and context, does not?

[bible]Romans 5:18[/bible]

And why would it not mean "all"?

"then as it was by one offence towards all men to condemnation, so by one righteousness towards all men for justification of life."

 

[GrinningDwarf]

God is not willing that any perish, says the verse in question. And you seem to say, that "any" refers to the elect. So, why would God be concerned that the elect perish?

'Concerned' as in afraid they might perish? Certainly not. I think you're putting a construction in here which just doesn't line up with the words. Since God doesn't want any of His elect to perish, they won't. Not possible. That's part of that 'omnipotence' thing of God's.

Can they/do they perish? I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. Grammar in and of itself doesn't change the meaning of the words themselves.

To the contrary, grammar (which includes sentence structure and context) has much to do with the meaning of words. If 'all' always means 'each and every individual', how would you interpret "All redheads are invited to a dinner"? How about simply "All are invited to a dinner." Does this mean that each and every individual on the planet is invited to a dinner? Does it matter if this is a notice posted in a church newsletter? Or a private club's bulletin board? Or in a letter sent to members of an extended family? Context, context, context!!

 

[stumpjumper]

And why would it not mean "all"?

You'd be treading into the waters that Origen swam in then...

"then as it was by one offence towards all men to condemnation, so by one righteousness towards all men for justification of life."

Are all men justified? I think many would disagree with that point...

 

[holdon]

'Concerned' as in afraid they might perish? Certainly not. I think you're putting a construction in here which just doesn't line up with the words. Since God doesn't want anybody He has elected to perish, they won't. Not possible. That's part of that 'omnipotence' thing of God's.

So, why would Peter be saying that God is not willing that elect-that-cannot-perish, perish and to continue in saying that God
wants all elect to come repentance. Wouldn't elect come to repentance by definition? So, you'r construct doesn't make any sense at all.

"The Lord does not delay his promise, as some account of delay, but is longsuffering towards you, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

To the contrary, grammar (which includes sentence structure and context) has much to do with the meaning of words. If 'all' always means 'each and every individual', how would you interpret "All redheads are invited to a dinner"?

Exactly as it is written.

How about simply "All are invited to a dinner."

Same thing.

Does this mean that each and every individual on the planet is invited to a dinner?

If you told everybody on the planet that message, it would encompass all on the planet.

Does it matter if this is a notice posted in a church newsletter? Or a private club's bulletin board? Or in a letter sent to members of an extended family? Context, context, context!!

Oh, nobody is saying that context is not important or that "all" is necessarily all on the planet. Context by the way is a different thing from grammar.
But you just proved the point that "all" = all in each of those cases. You sure don't think that the "all" of your private club include "all" in your church.

 

[holdon]

You'd be treading into the waters that Origen swam in then...



Are all men justified? I think many would disagree with that point...

Ok, I see your point. It resides in a misunderstanding of what is written. It is not written that the act of righteousness actually came to all men (second clause). The word came is not in the text (greek).
The meaning is not of an accomplished fact, but one of potential.
All men run the risk to be condemned because of one offense.
All men can be jusitified by the righteouse act of One.
The key is in the interpretation of the word "eis" (unto or towards a goal).

 

[simonthezealot]

BTW, no one cared to comment on the quote from the founding father of Protestantism, Martin Luther regarding this.

Founding father?

Do some research on your Bishop G.Contarini.

 

[stumpjumper]

All men run the risk to be condemned because of one offense.
The key is in the interpretation of the word "eis" (unto or towards a goal).

But then that would mean that the first "all" would only mean that all men, or women, run the risk of being born into condemnation

I don't think that interpretation would cause a problem for the Immaculate Conception...

 

[holdon]

But then that would mean that the first "all" would only mean that all men, or women, run the risk of being born into condemnation

What it means is that they will be all condemned, except if they believe and repent. See the "switch" from "all" to "many" in the following verse.

I don't think that interpretation would cause a problem for the Immaculate Conception...

Well, that's another story... Because if sin is transmitted from parent to child, then why did Mary not transmit it to Jesus? The theological escape (without biblical basis) for that has been that Mary herself was sinless through a special grace when she was conceived.

 

[Jon0388g]

This is your logic, not God's. The word of God says, 'all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.' This meaning all, no exception. I'm saying that children sin even though they don't comprehend sin.

Hit it on the head here.

"When a leader sins and unintentionally does any one of all the things which the Lord his God has commanded not to be done, and he becomes guilty..." Leviticus 4:22

Unintentional sin is still sin.

All Isreal will be saved, but not all will accept this salvation.

All Isreal will be saved, yes. All spiritual Israel, that is. We are all part of Israel when we become 'grafted' into the house of God, as Paul says in Romans 11.

So yes, all does mean all - all have a sinful nature through Eve and Adam, and so all need to be saved.

 

[cygnusx1]

Romans 3:23 since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

Protestants like to use this verse to "prove" that Mary sinned. But is this a good defense on their part? Hardly. My point in this thread is not to argue about the Immaculate Conception, but to point out that protestants use of this verse and specifically the word "all" does not necessarily mean all.

Firstly, let's start out with some logic here. Do infants sin or children below the age of reason sin? Do the senile sin? Do mentally retarded persons sin? In some cases they may know they aren't supposed to do something, but do they have knowledge that it is a sin? If a three year old is hitting a brother and is told not to but does it anyway are they sinning? No, they might know that they are not supposed to do it, but they don't have knowledge that they are sinning. So by just using simple logic here we can see that these people are subtracted from the "all" in Romans 3:23. So "all" does not mean "all" in these cases.

Now lets use some scripture to see if "all" means "all". The problem with this is that the word 'ALL' here is the Greek word, 'PAS', which can have different meanings to the absolute that we immediately think of. Here are some scripture verses.

John 12:19 So the Pharisees said to one another, "See, this is getting us nowhere. Look how the whole world has gone after him!" This verse does not use the word "all" but the context is the same. "the whole world has gone after him." Really, did everyone in the whole world go after Christ?

Matthew 3:5-6 Then went out to him Jerusalem and all Judea and all the region about the Jordan, (6) and they were baptized by him in the river Jordan, confessing their sins. Really? Were all of Judea and all the region about the Jordan Baptized? Does "all" really mean all here?

Luke 2:1 In those days a decree went out from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be enrolled. Was everyone in the whole wide world enrolled or counted? Really?

Romans 11:26 and so all Israel will be saved; as it is written, "The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob"; Is this true, will everyone in Israel be saved? Really, every single person???

Romans 15:14 I myself am satisfied about you, my brethren, that you yourselves are full of goodness, filled with all knowledge, and able to instruct one another. Gee, I thought only God was filled with "all" knowledge. But according to protestant definition of the word "all", apparently every single one of us is filled with "all" knowledge.

The Greek word 'PAS' in many verses in Scripture simply means a 'great number', 'most of', or 'a lot'. So its appearance in the quoted passage can in no way be used as an objection to the sinlessness of the Virgin Mary.

As an added bonus, what did the founder of protestantism say about Mary on her state of sin? Let's take a look.

"It is a sweet and pious belief that the infusion of Mary's soul was effected without original sin; so that in the very infusion of her soul she was also purified from original sin and adorned with God's gifts, receiving a pure soul infused by God; thus from the first moment she began to live she was free from all sin."
Martin Luther: Sermon, 1527

Only God is Good - Mark 10:18

Jesus answered, "Why do you call me good? No person is good. Only God is good. [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva](ERV)[/FONT]

 

[Peaceful Dove]

I find it really odd that some folks take Scripture literally when it suits them. ONLY when it suits them. When it doesn't suit them, the interpret it away.
Can anyone here tell me why that is???

 

[GrinningDwarf]

So, why would Peter be saying that God is not willing that elect-that-cannot-perish, perish and to continue in saying that God
wants all elect to come repentance. Wouldn't elect come to repentance by definition? So, you'r construct doesn't make any sense at all.

A paraphrase of this context, I suppose, would be "Christ hasn't come yet because there are still elect out there who have not yet been born again. When all of the elect have been born again, then Christ will return." Does that help any? Notice...just becaue someone is elect, doesn't mean they actually possess salvation right now. Think of the president-elect. He has been elected to the office but hasn't yet been sworn in. Similar kind of thing.

Exactly as it is written.

In it's context.

Same thing. If you told everybody on the planet that message, it would encompass all on the planet. Oh, nobody is saying that context is not important or that "all" is necessarily all on the planet. Context by the way is a different thing from grammar.
But you just proved the point that "all" = all in each of those cases. You sure don't think that the "all" of your private club include "all" in your church.

??!! I proved 'all' means 'each and every individual'?! By no means! If the invitation had been extended to each and every individual on the planet, they would all be included...but this is the point we're trying to determine. I proved that in each case...

...'all' can mean 'all redheads' (not each and every individual on the planet).

...'all' can mean 'every member of this particular church' (not each and every individual on the planet).

...'all' can mean 'every member of this particular club' (not each and every individual on the planet).

...'all' can mean 'every member of this particular extended family' (not each and every individual on the planet).

See how this works?

 

[blessedhusband]

I do believe that all means all..." for all have sinned and fallen short..." "there is none righteous, no not one..."

 

[blessedhusband]

i guess i don't really have an answer for your question, but i will say that i believe tht if one is going to take word of God literally (and i do) then one can't just choose the parts the suit him or her.

I find it really odd that some folks take Scripture literally when it suits them. ONLY when it suits them. When it doesn't suit them, the interpret it away.
Can anyone here tell me why that is???

​

 

[GrinningDwarf]

I find it really odd that some folks take Scripture literally when it suits them. ONLY when it suits them. When it doesn't suit them, the interpret it away.
Can anyone here tell me why that is???

I think people can get out of balance. Some people will take everything literally while others take nothing literally. We have to be aware of what type of writing each part of Scripture is. Narrative is to be taken literally (although it still might include metaphore and hyperbole, which isn't to be taken literally). Poetic and apocalyptic literature is generally to be taken figuratively.

 

[holdon]

A paraphrase of this context, I suppose, would be "Christ hasn't come yet because there are still elect out there who have not yet been born again. When all of the elect have been born again, then Christ will return." Does that help any? Notice...just becaue someone is elect, doesn't mean they actually possess salvation right now. Think of the president-elect. He has been elected to the office but hasn't yet been sworn in. Similar kind of thing.

Of course those that are saved are elect. But who is elect before they are saved we don't know. Hence it is: The Lord is longsuffering, not willing that ANY perish, but that ALL come to repentance. Accordingly we find that He commands ALL and everywhere to repent. Acts 17:31.
His long-suffering is salvation: 2 Pet 3:15.

??!! I proved 'all' means 'each and every individual'?! By no means! If the invitation had been extended to each and every individual on the planet, they would all be included...but this is the point we're trying to determine. I proved that in each case...

...'all' can mean 'all redheads' (not each and every individual on the planet).

But you mean "all redheads". Or which redhead is excluded? None.

...'all' can mean 'every member of this particular church' (not each and every individual on the planet).

But you mean "every member of this church", so who is excluded of that church? None.

...'all' can mean 'every member of this particular club' (not each and every individual on the planet).

But you mean "every member of this club", so who is excluded of that club? None.

...'all' can mean 'every member of this particular extended family' (not each and every individual on the planet).

But you mean "every member of this family", so who is excluded of that family? None.

See how this works?

See, in each and every instance, the meaning of "all" in itself hasn't changed. It means "all" all the time. You changed the qualifier: "redheads", "this church", "this club", "this family", that's all.
But when there is not qualifier, like in our verse, "all" means just that: all.

Thanks for confirming the meaning of all.

 

[cygnusx1]

I think people can get out of balance. Some people will take everything literally while others take nothing literally. We have to be aware of what type of writing each part of Scripture is. Narrative is to be taken literally (although it still might include metaphore and hyperbole, which isn't to be taken literally). Poetic and apocalyptic literature is generally to be taken figuratively.

good post !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[GrinningDwarf]

Of course those that are saved are elect. But who is elect before they are saved we don't know. Hence it is: The Lord is longsuffering, not willing that ANY perish, but that ALL come to repentance. Accordingly we find that He commands ALL and everywhere to repent. Acts 17:31.
His long-suffering is salvation: 2 Pet 3:15. But you mean "all redheads". Or which redhead is excluded? None.But you mean "every member of this church", so who is excluded of that church? None. But you mean "every member of this club", so who is excluded of that club? None. But you mean "every member of this family", so who is excluded of that family? None. See, in each and every instance, the meaning of "all" in itself hasn't changed. It means "all" all the time. You changed the qualifier: "redheads", "this church", "this club", "this family", that's all.
But when there is not qualifier, like in our verse, "all" means just that: all.

Thanks for confirming the meaning of all.

OK...now that we've established that...there are also qualifiers all around 2 Peter 3:9. 'Us', 'we', 'you'. Context, context, context!!!

 

[PaulAckermann]

How did you know that she didn't? The bible only listed a few who didn't died. Mary was not on that list.

I didn't know there was "list".

The Book of Acts was written before 70 AD. It is asafe bet that Mary was alive until then, otherwise Acts would have mentioned it. So whatever happened to Mary, it cannot be derived from the Bible.

There are two strains of Traditions concerning Mary. One if that Mary never died. And why not. If the Lord spared Enoch and Elijah, then we would He not spare His own mother?

The other strain of tradition is that Mary did die, not because she, as a sinner, had to suffer the wages of sin, any more than Jesus's death shows that Jesus was a sinner. Instead, she wanted to fully identify with her Son in His sufferings. Anyway, after she died, she was bodily assumed into heaven.