Romans 3:23 - Does "all" really mean "all"?

[holdon]

2. If there are qualifiers around the word 'all'. For instance, 2 Peter 3:9 says



If we look at the context here, Paul is addressing believers (2 Pet. 1:1; 3:1; and earlier in verse 9-longsuffering toward us). Any in this case refers to us, the elect.

No, any is any. He does not want that any perish. Or do you think that we have to be afraid that "elect" can perish?

RT has long sought to diminish the force of "all" and "world" so as to suit their theology. It won't do.

(by the way it's not Paul speaking but Peter....)

 

[Bulldog]

No, any is any. He does not want that any perish. Or do you think that we have to be afraid that "elect" can perish?

Why would the RT reading necessitate this?

 

[Bulldog]

Romans 3:23 since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

Protestants like to use this verse to "prove" that Mary sinned. But is this a good defense on their part? Hardly. My point in this thread is not to argue about the Immaculate Conception, but to point out that protestants use of this verse and specifically the word "all" does not necessarily mean all.

Firstly, let's start out with some logic here. Do infants sin or children below the age of reason sin? Do the senile sin? Do mentally retarded persons sin? In some cases they may know they aren't supposed to do something, but do they have knowledge that it is a sin? If a three year old is hitting a brother and is told not to but does it anyway are they sinning? No, they might know that they are not supposed to do it, but they don't have knowledge that they are sinning. So by just using simple logic here we can see that these people are subtracted from the "all" in Romans 3:23. So "all" does not mean "all" in these cases.

Now lets use some scripture to see if "all" means "all". The problem with this is that the word 'ALL' here is the Greek word, 'PAS', which can have different meanings to the absolute that we immediately think of. Here are some scripture verses.

John 12:19 So the Pharisees said to one another, "See, this is getting us nowhere. Look how the whole world has gone after him!" This verse does not use the word "all" but the context is the same. "the whole world has gone after him." Really, did everyone in the whole world go after Christ?

Matthew 3:5-6 Then went out to him Jerusalem and all Judea and all the region about the Jordan, (6) and they were baptized by him in the river Jordan, confessing their sins. Really? Were all of Judea and all the region about the Jordan Baptized? Does "all" really mean all here?

Luke 2:1 In those days a decree went out from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be enrolled. Was everyone in the whole wide world enrolled or counted? Really?

Romans 11:26 and so all Israel will be saved; as it is written, "The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob"; Is this true, will everyone in Israel be saved? Really, every single person???

Romans 15:14 I myself am satisfied about you, my brethren, that you yourselves are full of goodness, filled with all knowledge, and able to instruct one another. Gee, I thought only God was filled with "all" knowledge. But according to protestant definition of the word "all", apparently every single one of us is filled with "all" knowledge.

The Greek word 'PAS' in many verses in Scripture simply means a 'great number', 'most of', or 'a lot'. So its appearance in the quoted passage can in no way be used as an objection to the sinlessness of the Virgin Mary.

As an added bonus, what did the founder of protestantism say about Mary on her state of sin? Let's take a look.

"It is a sweet and pious belief that the infusion of Mary's soul was effected without original sin; so that in the very infusion of her soul she was also purified from original sin and adorned with God's gifts, receiving a pure soul infused by God; thus from the first moment she began to live she was free from all sin."
Martin Luther: Sermon, 1527

Sometimes it doesn't ture. But what ocntextul reason(s) do you have to believe it doesn't mean "all" or means a different kind of "al"" in this passage?

 

[ThirdDay3337]

John 12:19 So the Pharisees said to one another, "See, this is getting us nowhere. Look how the whole world has gone after him!"
So with your logic "the whoel world has gone after Jesus??? Hmmmmm?

Matthew 3:5-6 Then went out to him Jerusalem and all Judea and all the region about the Jordan, (6) and they were baptized by him in the river Jordan, confessing their sins.
So with your logic every single last person, in other words "all" of Judea and "all" the region about the Jordan were baptized? Hmmmmm?

I don't think you read the whole post. I already explained those verses.

 

[holdon]

Why would the RT reading necessitate this?

Because they think God could NOT have wanted that nobody should perish, when in fact some do perish.

 

[Bulldog]

Because they think God could have wanted that nobody should perish, when in fact some do perish.

Could you rephrase? I think I might be understanding the gist of what you're saying, but I don't completely follow.

 

[ROGER459]

WHO is Anyone, that they Shoud QUESTION GOD? OR, what GOD has said in His Word?

Perhaps it is time that you READ = The Entire BOOK OF ROMANS, AND THEN PONDER your Question? ? ?


Oh yes, THE DEVIL QUESTIONED GOD! As he led the Human Race into his Same Rebellion!

Genesis 3:1 ". . . has GOD Really Said. . . ?"

Thanks, Roger459

 

[holdon]

Could you rephrase? I think I might be understanding the gist of what you're saying, but I don't completely follow.

I see. I forgot the important 3 letter word "NOT". I corrected and now it should be clearer. Apologies.

 

[hoser]

I see so many of you choose to ignore logic and reason when it comes to this. Despite the examples that I provided showing how there are most definitely some people who cannot sin. They are not able to reason so how can they sin? In many cases they don’t know right from wrong, so how can they sin? Despite these examples and scripture verses that show very clearly that “all” does not always mean every single individual person. But since you insist that “all” in Romans 3:23 does mean every single individual person then “all” must include Jesus right? Sure he is God, but he was also man and since “all” means every single individual person then surely Jesus must have sinned as well.

I am going to provide more scripture verses for you to either ignore or claim that the “all” in these verses don’t mean “all”.

Romans 5:12 Therefore as sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned-- But what about Enoch and Elijah, I thought that they were raised up to heaven? I guess then death did not spread to ALL men.

Romans 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by one man's obedience many will be made righteous. What??? Many were made sinners? Is Paul confused here? Is he contradicting what he said in Romans 3:23?

Romans 3:10-11 as it is written: "None is righteous, no, not one; (11) no one understands, no one seeks for God. This is another verse the protestants like to use to “prove” that Mary was a sinner. But do you know what the basis of this verse is? Yes, Psalm 14. As someone else has said on this board, context, context, context. Psalm 14 does not teach that all humans are sinful. It only teaches that, among the wicked, all are sinful. The righteous continue to seek God.

Romans 3:24 they are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus, This follow up verse to Romans 3:23 would otherwise imply that absolutely everyone will be justified, including unbelievers, so Hell would be empty.

I rest my case. Choose to follow logic and scripture or don’t. BTW, no one cared to comment on the quote from the founding father of Protestantism, Martin Luther regarding this.

 

[Sheva]

I see so many of you choose to ignore logic and reason when it comes to this. Despite the examples that I provided showing how there are most definitely some people who cannot sin. They are not able to reason so how can they sin? In many cases they don’t know right from wrong, so how can they sin? Despite these examples and scripture verses that show very clearly that “all” does not always mean every single individual person. But since you insist that “all” in Romans 3:23 does mean every single individual person then “all” must include Jesus right? Sure he is God, but he was also man and since “all” means every single individual person then surely Jesus must have sinned as well.

I am going to provide more scripture verses for you to either ignore or claim that the “all” in these verses don’t mean “all”.

Romans 5:12 Therefore as sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned-- But what about Enoch and Elijah, I thought that they were raised up to heaven? I guess then death did not spread to ALL men.

Romans 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by one man's obedience many will be made righteous. What??? Many were made sinners? Is Paul confused here? Is he contradicting what he said in Romans 3:23?

Romans 3:10-11 as it is written: "None is righteous, no, not one; (11) no one understands, no one seeks for God. This is another verse the protestants like to use to “prove” that Mary was a sinner. But do you know what the basis of this verse is? Yes, Psalm 14. As someone else has said on this board, context, context, context. Psalm 14 does not teach that all humans are sinful. It only teaches that, among the wicked, all are sinful. The righteous continue to seek God.

Romans 3:24 they are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus, This follow up verse to Romans 3:23 would otherwise imply that absolutely everyone will be justified, including unbelievers, so Hell would be empty.

I rest my case. Choose to follow logic and scripture or don’t. BTW, no one cared to comment on the quote from the founding father of Protestantism, Martin Luther regarding this.

Where in the Bible does it say you have to know the difference between right and wrong to be able to sin??? I’m confused. It may be logical to you but as CaliforniaJosiah said the burden of proof is on you to prove these things.

While I believe that 100% of people are sinners, I bet, at the very least, you must admit that the vast majority of people are sinners. But anyway where does it say that Mary doesn’t sin?

Show us. Don’t tell us to prove you wrong.

And what does Martin Luther have to do with all this. You’re Catholic. Surely you don’t follow what Martin Luther taught.

 

[holdon]

But since you insist that “all” in Romans 3:23 does mean every single individual person then “all” must include Jesus right? Sure he is God, but he was also man and since “all” means every single individual person then surely Jesus must have sinned as well.

If "all" is "not all" in v 23 then it is "not all" in v 22. Thus v 22 would read:
"righteousness of God by faith of Jesus Christ towards not all, and not upon all those who believe: for there are differences;"Now, as to Jesus must be included, the answer is simple: no. Because the subject is "sinners" see v 7. Jesus was not one.

I am going to provide more scripture verses for you to either ignore or claim that the “all” in these verses don’t mean “all”.

Romans 5:12 Therefore as sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned-- But what about Enoch and Elijah, I thought that they were raised up to heaven? I guess then death did not spread to ALL men.

And didn't Enoch and Elijah not need to be saved? Did they have eternal life from their birth? Of course not. They were saved through faith.

Romans 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by one man's obedience many will be made righteous. What??? Many were made sinners? Is Paul confused here? Is he contradicting what he said in Romans 3:23?

No, Paul is not.

Romans 3:10-11 as it is written: "None is righteous, no, not one; (11) no one understands, no one seeks for God. This is another verse the protestants like to use to “prove” that Mary was a sinner. But do you know what the basis of this verse is? Yes, Psalm 14. As someone else has said on this board, context, context, context. Psalm 14 does not teach that all humans are sinful. It only teaches that, among the wicked, all are sinful. The righteous continue to seek God.

Nobody is righteous without a change....

Romans 3:24 they are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus, This follow up verse to Romans 3:23 would otherwise imply that absolutely everyone will be justified, including unbelievers, so Hell would be empty.

No, it just says that whoever the sinner is, he may come freely to be justified. That includes Mary too....

 

[PETE_]

Romans 5:12 Therefore as sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned-- But what about Enoch and Elijah, I thought that they were raised up to heaven? I guess then death did not spread to ALL men.

Many believe that these two will be the two phrophets in the tribulation , which would take care of that.

 

[Bulldog]

Because they think God could NOT have wanted that nobody should perish, when in fact some do perish.

Who is "they"?

 

[Bulldog]

I see so many of you choose to ignore logic and reason when it comes to this. Despite the examples that I provided showing how there are most definitely some people who cannot sin. They are not able to reason so how can they sin? In many cases they don’t know right from wrong, so how can they sin? Despite these examples and scripture verses that show very clearly that “all” does not always mean every single individual person. But since you insist that “all” in Romans 3:23 does mean every single individual person then “all” must include Jesus right? Sure he is God, but he was also man and since “all” means every single individual person then surely Jesus must have sinned as well.

We don't set rules by exceptions.

 

[GrinningDwarf]

The best example of God's love is the fact that he sent his Son to die on the cross.

Amen!!! Everybody (no exceptions) would have been condemned to hell without His offering Himself up.

I don't think you can say that Jesus died for one person but not for another.

JN 10:14 "I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me-- 15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father--and I lay down my life for the sheep.

He says 'for the sheep'....not for the goats...not for the wolves.

Do you think he died just for believers?

Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her

Who did He give himself up for? The church.

God "wants all men" to be saved.

This is resolved the same way as 2 Peter 3:9. If He wanted it to happen, it would happen.

 

[GrinningDwarf]

No, any is any. He does not want that any perish. Or do you think that we have to be afraid that "elect" can perish?

Not at all. I'm not sure how you draw that inference.

RT has long sought to diminish the force of "all" and "world" so as to suit their theology. It won't do.

Actually...seems to me that the goal is to break away from what our Arminian/semi-Pelagian culture has been telling us the Scriptures means and letting the words speak for themselves based upon simple rules of grammar.

(by the way it's not Paul speaking but Peter....)

Oops....yer right! Sorry 'bout that!

 

[GrinningDwarf]

I see so many of you choose to ignore logic and reason when it comes to this. Despite the examples that I provided showing how there are most definitely some people who cannot sin.

Well...why don't you respond to my demonstration to you about why 'all' in Romans 3 doesn't mean what you think it means? Others have also demonstrated the fallacies in your reasoning along those lines, but you don't respond yourself...you simply dismiss what you don't agree with.

 

[Lynn73]

Well...why don't you respond to my demonstration to you about why 'all' in Romans 3 doesn't mean what you think it means? Others have also demonstrated the fallacies in your reasoning along those lines, but you don't respond yourself...you simply dismiss what you don't agree with.

Maybe we should all just forget the Bible since evidently anything it says can be changed to mean something else.

 

[GrinningDwarf]

Maybe we should all just forget the Bible since evidently anything it says can be changed to mean something else.

Only if you ignore basic grammar and logic.

 

[holdon]

Not at all. I'm not sure how you draw that inference.

God is not willing that any perish, says the verse in question. And you seem to say, that "any" refers to the elect. So, why would God be concerned that the elect perish? Can they/do they perish?

Actually...seems to me that the goal is to break away from what our Arminian/semi-Pelagian culture has been telling us the Scriptures means and letting the words speak for themselves based upon simple rules of grammar.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. Grammar in and of itself doesn't change the meaning of the words themselves.