Romans 3:23 - Does "all" really mean "all"?

[hoser]

Romans 3:23 since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

Protestants like to use this verse to "prove" that Mary sinned. But is this a good defense on their part? Hardly. My point in this thread is not to argue about the Immaculate Conception, but to point out that protestants use of this verse and specifically the word "all" does not necessarily mean all.

Firstly, let's start out with some logic here. Do infants sin or children below the age of reason sin? Do the senile sin? Do mentally retarded persons sin? In some cases they may know they aren't supposed to do something, but do they have knowledge that it is a sin? If a three year old is hitting a brother and is told not to but does it anyway are they sinning? No, they might know that they are not supposed to do it, but they don't have knowledge that they are sinning. So by just using simple logic here we can see that these people are subtracted from the "all" in Romans 3:23. So "all" does not mean "all" in these cases.

Now lets use some scripture to see if "all" means "all". The problem with this is that the word 'ALL' here is the Greek word, 'PAS', which can have different meanings to the absolute that we immediately think of. Here are some scripture verses.

John 12:19 So the Pharisees said to one another, "See, this is getting us nowhere. Look how the whole world has gone after him!" This verse does not use the word "all" but the context is the same. "the whole world has gone after him." Really, did everyone in the whole world go after Christ?

Matthew 3:5-6 Then went out to him Jerusalem and all Judea and all the region about the Jordan, (6) and they were baptized by him in the river Jordan, confessing their sins. Really? Were all of Judea and all the region about the Jordan Baptized? Does "all" really mean all here?

Luke 2:1 In those days a decree went out from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be enrolled. Was everyone in the whole wide world enrolled or counted? Really?

Romans 11:26 and so all Israel will be saved; as it is written, "The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob"; Is this true, will everyone in Israel be saved? Really, every single person???

Romans 15:14 I myself am satisfied about you, my brethren, that you yourselves are full of goodness, filled with all knowledge, and able to instruct one another. Gee, I thought only God was filled with "all" knowledge. But according to protestant definition of the word "all", apparently every single one of us is filled with "all" knowledge.

The Greek word 'PAS' in many verses in Scripture simply means a 'great number', 'most of', or 'a lot'. So its appearance in the quoted passage can in no way be used as an objection to the sinlessness of the Virgin Mary.

As an added bonus, what did the founder of protestantism say about Mary on her state of sin? Let's take a look.

"It is a sweet and pious belief that the infusion of Mary's soul was effected without original sin; so that in the very infusion of her soul she was also purified from original sin and adorned with God's gifts, receiving a pure soul infused by God; thus from the first moment she began to live she was free from all sin."
Martin Luther: Sermon, 1527

 

[Veritas]

I just wanted to respond to your thread.

 

[JimfromOhio]

Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned. Adam and Eve died since God broke away the relationship with them and kicked them out of Garden of Eden. Death is universal spiritually and also by nature. Physically we are born alive however spiritually dead. When we have Jesus Christ in our lives, we no longer spiritually dead but spiritually alive even though our physical body will continue to decay and will die someday.

Those who is without sin will not die. Sin is required for physical death. The Bible clearly teaches that Jesus never sinned (Hebrews 4:15). In technical terms, "impeccability" is the doctrine that Christ could not sin, though he could be (and was) tempted. Jesus as God experienced the same temptations that we feel (Hebrews 2:18). He suffered the same kind of physical pains that we suffer with. He also experienced emotional pain. Examples of Christ's 3 attributes are: 1. Christ's basic nature never changes (Hebrews 1:12; 13:8). 2. He was holy in eternity past, and He would remain holy now. Falling to temptation shows moral weakness or lack of power and ability. Christ had infinite power, and was therefore not susceptible to sin. 3. Jesus had infinite knowledge, so he could not be deceived.

Jesus was born without sin for one purpose: Hebrews 7:26 "Such a high priest meets our need—one who is holy, blameless, pure, set apart from sinners, exalted above the heavens.

What killed Jesus? Sin.

I thought you said He never sinned: That's right, He didn't but it is our sins that He died from. 1 Corinthians 15:3 For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance : that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures Hebrews 9:15 For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.

About Mary... she did die physically therefore the logical conclusion is what? Mary was actually "blameless" when "the angel said to her, 'Do not be afraid, Mary, you have found favor with God.' (Luke 1:30). Mary was like Luke 1:5-6 "Abijah; his wife Elizabeth was also a descendant of Aaron. Both of them were upright in the sight of God, observing all the Lord's commandments and regulations blamelessly." Proverbs 20:9 Who can say, "I have kept my heart pure; I am clean and without sin"?

Mary was blameless in God's eyes as God saw Job blameless (Job 1:1). Mary was one of us and she was not "set apart from sinners" as Jesus was.

 

[stumpjumper]

Heh.

Didn't know there was such a thing as "protestantism"...

I don't think that all really does always mean all.... But sometimes it does depending on the context...

I do believe that Mary was full of grace as well...

 

[Yeznik]

Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned. Adam and Eve died since God broke away the relationship with them and kicked them out of Garden of Eden. Death is universal spiritually and also by nature. Physically we are born alive however spiritually dead. When we have Jesus Christ in our lives, we no longer spiritually dead but spiritually alive even though our physical body will continue to decay and will die someday.

Those who is without sin will not die. Sin is required for physical death. The Bible clearly teaches that Jesus never sinned (Hebrews 4:15). In technical terms, "impeccability" is the doctrine that Christ could not sin, though he could be (and was) tempted. Jesus as God experienced the same temptations that we feel (Hebrews 2:18). He suffered the same kind of physical pains that we suffer with. He also experienced emotional pain. Examples of Christ's 3 attributes are: 1. Christ's basic nature never changes (Hebrews 1:12; 13:8). 2. He was holy in eternity past, and He would remain holy now. Falling to temptation shows moral weakness or lack of power and ability. Christ had infinite power, and was therefore not susceptible to sin. 3. Jesus had infinite knowledge, so he could not be deceived.

Jesus was born without sin for one purpose: Hebrews 7:26 "Such a high priest meets our need—one who is holy, blameless, pure, set apart from sinners, exalted above the heavens.

What killed Jesus? Sin.

I thought you said He never sinned: That's right, He didn't but it is our sins that He died from. 1 Corinthians 15:3 For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance : that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures Hebrews 9:15 For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.

About Mary... she did die physically therefore the logical conclusion is what? Mary was actually "blameless" when "the angel said to her, 'Do not be afraid, Mary, you have found favor with God.' (Luke 1:30). Mary was like Luke 1:5-6 "Abijah; his wife Elizabeth was also a descendant of Aaron. Both of them were upright in the sight of God, observing all the Lord's commandments and regulations blamelessly." Proverbs 20:9 Who can say, "I have kept my heart pure; I am clean and without sin"?

Mary was blameless in God's eyes as God saw Job blameless (Job 1:1). Mary was one of us and she was not "set apart from sinners" as Jesus was.

Hello Jim, how do you know Mary physically died?

 

[WarriorAngel]

The Greek word 'PAS' in many verses in Scripture simply means a 'great number', 'most of', or 'a lot'. So its appearance in the quoted passage can in no way be used as an objection to the sinlessness of the Virgin Mary.

Always gr8 points Hoser.

 

[JimfromOhio]

Hello Jim, how do you know Mary physically died?

How did you know that she didn't? The bible only listed a few who didn't died. Mary was not on that list.

 

[JimfromOhio]

Strong's Number: 3956
Word: ALL
Original Word pa'ß
Word Origin including all the forms of declension
Parts of Speech Adjective

individually, each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things, everything

King James Word Usage - Total: 1243
all 748, all things 170, every 117, all men 41, whosoever 31, everyone 28, whole 12, all manner of 11, every man 11, no + (3756)&version=kjv 9, every thing 7, any 7, whatsoever 6, whosoever + (3739) + 302 3, always + (1223) 3, daily + (2250) 2, any thing 2, no + (3361) 2, not translated 7, miscellaneous 26

Romans have 61 references to "all". Ro 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

KJV Verse Count in New Testament
Matthew 121
Mark 64
Luke 140
John 60
Acts 156
Romans 61
1 Corinthians 73
2 Corinthians 43
Galatians 15
Ephesians 37
Philippians 30
Colossians 31
1 Thessalonians 18
2 Thessalonians 14
1 Timothy 22
2 Timothy 18
Titus 11
Philemon 2
Hebrews 44
James 11
1 Peter 15
2 Peter 7
1 John 24
2 John 2
3 John 2
Jude 3
Revelation 51

Total 1075

 

[ThirdDay3337]

Firstly, let's start out with some logic here. Do infants sin or children below the age of reason sin? Do the senile sin? Do mentally retarded persons sin? In some cases they may know they aren't supposed to do something, but do they have knowledge that it is a sin? If a three year old is hitting a brother and is told not to but does it anyway are they sinning? No, they might know that they are not supposed to do it, but they don't have knowledge that they are sinning. So by just using simple logic here we can see that these people are subtracted from the "all" in Romans 3:23. So "all" does not mean "all" in these cases.

This is your logic, not God's. The word of God says, 'all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.' This meaning all, no exception. I'm saying that children sin even though they don't comprehend sin. But I still think God makes an exception for children because they don't understand the concept of salvation.

John 12:19 So the Pharisees said to one another, "See, this is getting us nowhere. Look how the whole world has gone after him!" This verse does not use the word "all" but the context is the same. "the whole world has gone after him." Really, did everyone in the whole world go after Christ?

The verse quotes the words of the Pharisees using an exaggeration. If you read the context around Romans 3:23, it doesn't sound like it is being used as an exaggeration.

Matthew 3:5-6 Then went out to him Jerusalem and all Judea and all the region about the Jordan, (6) and they were baptized by him in the river Jordan, confessing their sins. Really? Were all of Judea and all the region about the Jordan Baptized? Does "all" really mean all here?

It's not saying that everybody from Jerusalem, Judea, and Jordan. But that people came from all parts of Jerusalem, Judea, and Jordan. Again, a different context than how its used in Romans 3:23.

Luke 2:1 In those days a decree went out from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be enrolled. Was everyone in the whole wide world enrolled or counted? Really?

That all the world should be enrolled. Not that all were.

Romans 11:26 and so all Israel will be saved; as it is written, "The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob"; Is this true, will everyone in Israel be saved? Really, every single person???

All Isreal will be saved, but not all will accept this salvation.

Romans 15:14 I myself am satisfied about you, my brethren, that you yourselves are full of goodness, filled with all knowledge, and able to instruct one another. Gee, I thought only God was filled with "all" knowledge. But according to protestant definition of the word "all", apparently every single one of us is filled with "all" knowledge.

They are filled with the power of the Holy Spirit, one of the trinity, so are therefore filled with all knowledge because the Holy Spirit has all knowledge.

These are my views on the verses you used.

Live for Christ

Luke

 

[PETE_]

may know they aren't supposed to do something, but do they have knowledge that it is a sin?

20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. http://www.christianforums.com/#_ftn1
http://www.christianforums.com/#_ftnref1The Holy Bible : New International Version. 1996, c1984 . Zondervan: Grand Rapids

 

[hoser]

This is your logic, not God's. The word of God says, 'all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.' This meaning all, no exception. I'm saying that children sin even though they don't comprehend sin. But I still think God makes an exception for children because they don't understand the concept of salvation.

John 12:19 So the Pharisees said to one another, "See, this is getting us nowhere. Look how the whole world has gone after him!"
So with your logic "the whoel world has gone after Jesus??? Hmmmmm?

Matthew 3:5-6 Then went out to him Jerusalem and all Judea and all the region about the Jordan, (6) and they were baptized by him in the river Jordan, confessing their sins.
So with your logic every single last person, in other words "all" of Judea and "all" the region about the Jordan were baptized? Hmmmmm?

 

[GrinningDwarf]

Romans 3:23 since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

Protestants like to use this verse to "prove" that Mary sinned. But is this a good defense on their part? Hardly. My point in this thread is not to argue about the Immaculate Conception, but to point out that protestants use of this verse and specifically the word "all" does not necessarily mean all.

Hey, hoser!

I applaud your use of the language in realizing that 'all' frequently has qualifiers, meaning that 'all' does not always mean 'each and every individual'. However, I think you're off track a little bit in the context of Romans 3.

I think your line of reasoning is absolutely correct in two situations:

1. If it is logically obvious that the usage probably does not mean each and every individual, as you pointed out in John 12:19 and Matthew 3:5-6.

2. If there are qualifiers around the word 'all'. For instance, 2 Peter 3:9 says

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. NKJV

If we look at the context here, Paul is addressing believers (2 Pet. 1:1; 3:1; and earlier in verse 9-longsuffering toward us). Any in this case refers to us, the elect. There is a qualifier on us. (Notice that the NIV and other newer translations say 'not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance'. It would appear that the translator's doctrinal positions crept into their translations here.)

Here's why I don't think your otherwise excellent line of reasoning works on Ro. 3:23...I don't see any qualifiers around that would limit 'all' in that case. In fact, Paul emphasizies in verse 10 that

There is no one righteous, not even one...

and in verse 12

...there is no one who does good, not even one...

 

[NephilimStoper]

Romans 3:23 since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

Protestants like to use this verse to "prove" that Mary sinned. But is this a good defense on their part? Hardly. My point in this thread is not to argue about the Immaculate Conception, but to point out that protestants use of this verse and specifically the word "all" does not necessarily mean all.

Firstly, let's start out with some logic here. Do infants sin or children below the age of reason sin? Do the senile sin? Do mentally retarded persons sin? In some cases they may know they aren't supposed to do something, but do they have knowledge that it is a sin? If a three year old is hitting a brother and is told not to but does it anyway are they sinning? No, they might know that they are not supposed to do it, but they don't have knowledge that they are sinning. So by just using simple logic here we can see that these people are subtracted from the "all" in Romans 3:23. So "all" does not mean "all" in these cases.

Now lets use some scripture to see if "all" means "all". The problem with this is that the word 'ALL' here is the Greek word, 'PAS', which can have different meanings to the absolute that we immediately think of. Here are some scripture verses.

John 12:19 So the Pharisees said to one another, "See, this is getting us nowhere. Look how the whole world has gone after him!" This verse does not use the word "all" but the context is the same. "the whole world has gone after him." Really, did everyone in the whole world go after Christ?

Matthew 3:5-6 Then went out to him Jerusalem and all Judea and all the region about the Jordan, (6) and they were baptized by him in the river Jordan, confessing their sins. Really? Were all of Judea and all the region about the Jordan Baptized? Does "all" really mean all here?

Luke 2:1 In those days a decree went out from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be enrolled. Was everyone in the whole wide world enrolled or counted? Really?

Romans 11:26 and so all Israel will be saved; as it is written, "The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob"; Is this true, will everyone in Israel be saved? Really, every single person???

Romans 15:14 I myself am satisfied about you, my brethren, that you yourselves are full of goodness, filled with all knowledge, and able to instruct one another. Gee, I thought only God was filled with "all" knowledge. But according to protestant definition of the word "all", apparently every single one of us is filled with "all" knowledge.

The Greek word 'PAS' in many verses in Scripture simply means a 'great number', 'most of', or 'a lot'. So its appearance in the quoted passage can in no way be used as an objection to the sinlessness of the Virgin Mary.

As an added bonus, what did the founder of protestantism say about Mary on her state of sin? Let's take a look.

"It is a sweet and pious belief that the infusion of Mary's soul was effected without original sin; so that in the very infusion of her soul she was also purified from original sin and adorned with God's gifts, receiving a pure soul infused by God; thus from the first moment she began to live she was free from all sin."
Martin Luther: Sermon, 1527

I would look it up in the Greek.... "ohh scary" hehe and find the definition for ur self... then is All means All!!! then you have to say this is the Bible the WORD of GOD and believe him or .... Not?!?!?! hope this helps

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

Romans 3:23 since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

Protestants like to use this verse to "prove" that Mary sinned. But is this a good defense on their part? Hardly. My point in this thread is not to argue about the Immaculate Conception, but to point out that protestants use of this verse and specifically the word "all" does not necessarily mean all.

Certainly, hyperbole and other figures of speech are used in God's Holy Scriptures. However, in this case, if "all" doesn't mean "all" - it seems to undermine Paul's whole point here. The context to me requires all all-inclusive "all" or the whole point he's making falls apart.

Firstly, let's start out with some logic here. Do infants sin or children below the age of reason sin? Do the senile sin? Do mentally retarded persons sin?

Yes.

Even if there are no ACTS or visible symptoms of sin.

And I think you're going down a road you may not want to, since the RCC believes that Mary was in need of salvation as much as anyone else.

So by just using simple logic here we can see that these people are subtracted from the "all" in Romans 3:23. So "all" does not mean "all" in these cases.

I respectfully disagree with your logic, hermeneutics and theology. I'm also at a loss to know what that has to do with a biblical support for the Immaculate Conception (if you're saying it's doctrine, the burden of proof is on you to support it - for the Protestant, with Scripture).

Now lets use some scripture to see if "all" means "all". The problem with this is that the word 'ALL' here is the Greek word, 'PAS', which can have different meanings to the absolute that we immediately think of. Here are some scripture verses.

Context, context, context...





If your argument is that it's theoretically possible that Mary was born without sin, I'll conceed that (theoretically, I'll conceed almost anything). It's possible that I was born without sin, too - but that doesn't make it so. IMHO, that's an inadequate way to formulate doctrine.


Thank you.


My $0.01...


Pax


- Josiah

 

[racer]

Let's see the last thread started by the OP, I responded to, and he has never acknowledged that post. So, I don't think I'll bother with answering this one . . . . .

 

[Sheva]

Romans 3:23 - Does "all" really mean "all"?


It’s hard to argue with you because you presuppose that the senile, infants and mentally retarded can’t sin. You also presuppose that you have to have knowledge that you are sinning to actually sin.

So does that mean we can add unbelievers who don’t believe in sin to the senile, infants and mentally retarded and group them all as non-sinners?

Sin is breaking God’s law. Sin doesn’t become a sin when you realize “hey I just sinned.” That’s a crazy idea.
Infants, senile and mentally retarded people sin just as much as you or I do…. But that’s okay. Jesus died for them too.

John 3:16 “"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[a] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

Please don’t tell me when this passage says “world” that doesn’t mean all people. If not we might be in some trouble. I prefer to take this passage and Romans 3:23 as it stands.

And also you might argue that the senile infants and mentally retarded can’t believe so their only way to heaven is perfection. Again… Jesus died for everyone regardless of intelligence. I believe that the senile, infants and mentally retarded can believe just as much as you or I.

Here’s my Luther quote.
“I believe that I cannot by my own reason or strength believe in Jesus Christ, my Lord, or come to Him; but the Holy Ghost has called me by the Gospel, enlightened me with His gifts, sanctified and kept me in the true faith.” (small catechism)

Sorry to get off on a tangent but I thought the doctrine that you presupposed was wrong and more of an important discussion topic than whether or not Marry was a sinner.

But yes, I do believe Mary was a sinner. there are plenty of other passages in the Bible that say we are all sinners. Here is one.

10As it is written:
"There is no one righteous, not even one;
11there is no one who understands,
no one who seeks God.
12All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one." Romans 3:10-12...

You could make the same argument you made before but I think the Bible makes the point pretty clear.

 

[BigNorsk]

Romans 3:23 since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

Protestants like to use this verse to "prove" that Mary sinned. But is this a good defense on their part? Hardly. My point in this thread is not to argue about the Immaculate Conception, but to point out that protestants use of this verse and specifically the word "all" does not necessarily mean all.

Firstly, let's start out with some logic here. Do infants sin or children below the age of reason sin? Do the senile sin? Do mentally retarded persons sin? In some cases they may know they aren't supposed to do something, but do they have knowledge that it is a sin? If a three year old is hitting a brother and is told not to but does it anyway are they sinning? No, they might know that they are not supposed to do it, but they don't have knowledge that they are sinning. So by just using simple logic here we can see that these people are subtracted from the "all" in Romans 3:23. So "all" does not mean "all" in these cases.

Now lets use some scripture to see if "all" means "all". The problem with this is that the word 'ALL' here is the Greek word, 'PAS', which can have different meanings to the absolute that we immediately think of. Here are some scripture verses.

John 12:19 So the Pharisees said to one another, "See, this is getting us nowhere. Look how the whole world has gone after him!" This verse does not use the word "all" but the context is the same. "the whole world has gone after him." Really, did everyone in the whole world go after Christ?

Matthew 3:5-6 Then went out to him Jerusalem and all Judea and all the region about the Jordan, (6) and they were baptized by him in the river Jordan, confessing their sins. Really? Were all of Judea and all the region about the Jordan Baptized? Does "all" really mean all here?

Luke 2:1 In those days a decree went out from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be enrolled. Was everyone in the whole wide world enrolled or counted? Really?

Romans 11:26 and so all Israel will be saved; as it is written, "The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob"; Is this true, will everyone in Israel be saved? Really, every single person???

Romans 15:14 I myself am satisfied about you, my brethren, that you yourselves are full of goodness, filled with all knowledge, and able to instruct one another. Gee, I thought only God was filled with "all" knowledge. But according to protestant definition of the word "all", apparently every single one of us is filled with "all" knowledge.

The Greek word 'PAS' in many verses in Scripture simply means a 'great number', 'most of', or 'a lot'. So its appearance in the quoted passage can in no way be used as an objection to the sinlessness of the Virgin Mary.

As an added bonus, what did the founder of protestantism say about Mary on her state of sin? Let's take a look.

"It is a sweet and pious belief that the infusion of Mary's soul was effected without original sin; so that in the very infusion of her soul she was also purified from original sin and adorned with God's gifts, receiving a pure soul infused by God; thus from the first moment she began to live she was free from all sin."
Martin Luther: Sermon, 1527

Hoser,

Of course infants and children and everyone else sin. You seem to have bought into some sort of age of accountability sort of doctrine. Note that even that doesn't properly teach that we don't sin, for what would there be to not be held accountable for if there was no sin?

I would suggest you go back and start at the beginning in constructing your doctrine in this area. We take Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden. They were told to not eat of the fruit or they would die. They did eat and all of mankind died with their action. Now what was the tree? It was the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, so the very sin that killed all of mankind was done without the knowledge of good and evil.

A lot of false doctrines come about through rationalization.

I would also note that your concept of sin pretty well would preclude any need for the Catholic dogma of the Immaculate Conception. With your reasoning Mary would have been without sin from the start, JUST LIKE EVERYONE ELSE.

Marv

 

[plum]

The Greek word 'PAS' in many verses in Scripture simply means a 'great number', 'most of', or 'a lot'. So its appearance in the quoted passage can in no way be used as an objection to the sinlessness of the Virgin Mary.

So you'd change the verse to say, "For a great number have sinned and fallen short of the glory of G-d" right?

so, if you want to go that route... which people haven't sinned and haven't fallen short of the glory of G-d? Who's an equal to Him and who has hit the mark perfectly?

I can only think of one, but since you're claiming there may be more, I'd love to know them too. and if they died for me, would I be saved? Just curious.

 

[GrinningDwarf]

John 3:16 “"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[a] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

Please don’t tell me when this passage says “world” that doesn’t mean all people...

But it doesn't necessarily mean all people everywhere with the same kind of love. ...and for the same reason that hoser discusses for 'all'.

 

[Sheva]

But it doesn't necessarily mean all people everywhere with the same kind of love. ...and for the same reason that hoser discusses for 'all'.

The best example of God's love is the fact that he sent his Son to die on the cross. I don't think you can say that Jesus died for one person but not for another.

Do you think he died just for believers?

Just because someone is lacking faith faith doesn't mean that Jesus didn't die for them.

1I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone— 2for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. (1 Timothy 2:1-4)

Here, "kings and all those in authority" are included in all men too. This shows that God doesn't just love believers. God "wants all men to be saved." Paul doesn't just say he wants all believers to be saved or he wouldn't have add "kings and all those in authority."

You could make the point that God doesn't love unbelievers when he sends them to hell. But that is only what happens after a life of continually rejecting Jesus as their Savior.

God "wants all men" to be saved.