Romans 13

[Clizby WampusCat]

How many times i gotta tell you we dont vote for our president to you not understand what branches are friend honest question?

Interesting since I voted for President last November.

 

[ChetSinger]

But God decides right? Would God not get what he wants because we voted a different way than what He wanted?

I don't know how many different ways I can say this. My response is contained in the two passages I referenced: God is in authority, yet our decisions and desires can move him to change his will.

 

[RDKirk]

Since Romans 13:1-2 says that God chooses our leaders. Can Christians change God's will by voting? If not, why should they vote?

Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.

The primary purpose of those verses is to instruct against Christian rebellion against secular authority. There are even broader reasons why Christians should not operate in a "spirit of rebellion" in general, but bringing down the secular government creates a bad result for Christianity.

The Body of Christ is able to function better under conditions of social order rather than social chaos even when that social order is oppressive. For instance, in the first three centuries of the Christian Era, Christianity was oppressed, yet it grew even to the point of 25% of Rome. Christianity has grown ten-fold in North Korea since the mid 90s. If the only mortal threat is from a well-ordered government, Christianity can grow. OTOH, where chaos reigns and violent thugs kill at will, such as in South Sudan, Christianity is hampered. We have seen the same result in Iraq.

That is why the governmental condition Christians are explicitly told to pray for is "benign neglect" from government...not influence over government (1 Timothy 2).

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

No, we cannot change Gods plan or will by voting. But also whoever gets the most votes wins, so if you want someone to win vote for them.

These are contradictory statements.

 

[dóxatotheó]

Interesting since I voted for President last November.

Popular vote doesn't put the president in office.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

Popular vote doesn't put the president in office.

Never said it did. But I got to vote for president, I assume you did too. It is the peoples votes that choose the president, just not in a popular vote.

 

[dóxatotheó]

It is the peoples votes that choose the president

Electoral College chooses president.

just not in a popular vote.

Correct popular vote, doesn't do anything but appeal to the Electoral College.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

Electoral College chooses president.

Correct popular vote, doesn't do anything but appeal to the Electoral College.

Why did you misrepresent what I said by not quoting my entire post? I already said that I never said the popular vote chooses the president. I said our votes do choose the president. 29 states electors are bound by state law to cast the votes the way the popular vote chose in that state. The other states have no requirements. However, in the last election I know of one elector that did not cast their vote for the popular vote candidate in that state. So yes, in the last election the people chose the president by their votes.

You are voting for which state electors go to Washington and cast their vote for president. When the voters in each State cast votes for the Presidential candidate of their choice they are voting to select their State's electors. So the candidate that wins has their electors cast the votes for president.

 

[Ed1wolf]

These are contradictory statements.

Only apparently. It is similar to light being a particle and a wave. Since we dont fully understand light we cannot figure out how that is possible and it appears to be a contradiction and so it is with God since we dont fully understand what He can do either.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

Only apparently. It is similar to light being a particle and a wave. Since we dont fully understand light we cannot figure out how that is possible and it appears to be a contradiction and so it is with God since we dont fully understand what He can do either.

Light is not a contradiction because we can show through experimentation that it behaves like a wave and a particle (we also have a picture of this now). It does not matter if we don't know why, we know there must be a solution. With your contradiction there is no evidence that it is true. Contradictions should be assumed false until they can be shown to be true, like light.

 

[Ed1wolf]

Light is not a contradiction because we can show through experimentation that it behaves like a wave and a particle (we also have a picture of this now). It does not matter if we don't know why, we know there must be a solution. With your contradiction there is no evidence that it is true. Contradictions should be assumed false until they can be shown to be true, like light.

Ok, maybe a better analogy is quantum mechanics. We dont have a picture of that. But we know there must be a solution but so far there is no observational evidence it is true. It is not a contradiction it is a paradox.

 

[mindlight]

Since Romans 13:1-2 says that God chooses our leaders. Can Christians change God's will by voting? If not, why should they vote?

Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.

The basic theme in this passage is respect for whichever authority is in charge. In the big picture politics and state governments are not as important as they themselves might think. These will perish but the kingdom of God will endure. But Christians should not bring unnecessary trouble down on the church by being regarded as rebels and revolutionaries. The Gospel properly preached and demonstrated will bring us trouble enough.

The mechanisms by which God chooses leaders vary by political system. In a democracy Christians should be active in seeking to choose "God's candidate" but not despair when Satans alternative wins. After all the negative example of Satan in power often helps the churches witness by way of contrast.

 

[RDKirk]

Electoral College chooses president.

Correct popular vote, doesn't do anything but appeal to the Electoral College.

Most states have laws requiring their Electoral College electors to vote according to the state's popular vote. That's not merely an "appeal."

 

[dóxatotheó]

Most states have laws requiring their Electoral College electors to vote according to the state's popular vote. That's not merely an "appeal."

Ok?

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

Ok, maybe a better analogy is quantum mechanics. We dont have a picture of that. But we know there must be a solution but so far there is no observational evidence it is true. It is not a contradiction it is a paradox.

Yes, but nothing for god can be shown to be true. Contradictions in the bible cannot be shown to be true as in light or quantum mechanics.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

The basic theme in this passage is respect for whichever authority is in charge. In the big picture politics and state governments are not as important as they themselves might think. These will perish but the kingdom of God will endure. But Christians should not bring unnecessary trouble down on the church by being regarded as rebels and revolutionaries. The Gospel properly preached and demonstrated will bring us trouble enough.

What trouble?

The mechanisms by which God chooses leaders vary by political system. In a democracy Christians should be active in seeking to choose "God's candidate" but not despair when Satans alternative wins. After all the negative example of Satan in power often helps the churches witness by way of contrast.

If God chooses the leaders then why vote. Does your vote affect the outcome?

 

[Ed1wolf]

Yes, but nothing for god can be shown to be true. Contradictions in the bible cannot be shown to be true as in light or quantum mechanics.

There are no real contradictions in the bible. There are some apparent ones but they can be shown not to be by careful analysis of the grammatico-historical context.

 

[RDKirk]

If God chooses the leaders then why vote. Does your vote affect the outcome?

That's rather like the question of, "If God's will is sovereign, why bother praying?"

The answer: Because He still wants our participation.

 

[mindlight]

What trouble?

By way of example take the Jewish Zealot response to Roman authority. Their first attempt leading to the destruction of Jerusalem and the second to the annihilation of many Jews across the empire. The Christians were respectful of authority in the same time period and the church grew even through major persecutions.

If God chooses the leaders then why vote. Does your vote affect the outcome?

Think you missed the argument here. God can choose leaders through us in a Democratic system and we have a responsibility to do our part in that case. But the political is not as important as God's Kingdom was the major point. Even political defeat can result in victories in what matters. Our responsibility to get involved is not negated by God's larger planning which just lends perspective to our role. We can trust that when we have done what we could God will achieve what He intends even if we are defeated on the merely political level. Basically we do what we do for God not for political ends and we can trust things will work out because of that.

The experience of the Orthodox church in Russia/USSR might be an example. A slightly false liaison between church and state was destroyed by the emergence of communism and defeat in war. For 70 years the church was forced underground and suffered serious losses. But ultimately God's Kingdom triumphed, the Evil Empire of atheistic Communism fell, and the majority of Russians today declare themselves Orthodox. The falsity and incompetence of Tsarist Christianity and its contempt for poor serfs has been eliminated by the experience of atheistic communism but the church is now stronger and has better perspective in the country having been tested by 70 years of atheistic oppression. The church is now better equipped to be the conscience of the Russian nation than it was before.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

There are no real contradictions in the bible. There are some apparent ones but they can be shown not to be by careful analysis of the grammatico-historical context.

No, it usually comes down to "those words actually don't mean what they mean" etc.