Romans 13

[Clizby WampusCat]

Since Romans 13:1-2 says that God chooses our leaders. Can Christians change God's will by voting? If not, why should they vote?

Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.

 

[Tinker Grey]

Because God's will is revealed by our vote?

 

[zippy2006]

Since Romans 13:1-2 says that God chooses our leaders. Can Christians change God's will by voting? If not, why should they vote?

For Christians God works through the actions of volitional agents. We believe that God's providence applies to all things while also holding that the candidate who receives the most votes (or wins the EC) will be elected. We vote and influence the outcome but ultimately God is in charge.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

For Christians God works through the actions of volitional agents. We believe that God's providence applies to all things while also holding that the candidate who receives the most votes (or wins the EC) will be elected. We vote and influence the outcome but ultimately God is in charge.

You can't have both. If God has decided who will be the leader then how can any amount of votes by Christians change that outcome?

Can the votes override Gods wishes? If so, then how does that square with Romans 13?

 

[zippy2006]

You can't have both. If God has decided who will be the leader then how can any amount of votes by Christians change that outcome?

Can the votes override Gods wishes? If so, then how does that square with Romans 13?

 

[plain jayne]

Since Romans 13:1-2 says that God chooses our leaders. Can Christians change God's will by voting? If not, why should they vote?

Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.

I don't take that verse to mean that God picks out ALL individual authority everywhere and our votes are meaningless.

I take that verse to mean that God has established authorities, kings, presidents, governors, etc....

I DO believe God knows who will rule and sometimes appoints certain people, like King Cyrus and Pharaoh in the Bible.

 

[Arc F1]

Since Romans 13:1-2 says that God chooses our leaders. Can Christians change God's will by voting? If not, why should they vote?

Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.

Amazing how translations can change things. My Bible says higher authority.

If the new translations are correct and or the meaning is government then we have a Bible with errors. That can't be. Paul could not have been speaking about governments.

 

[Arc F1]

You can't have both. If God has decided who will be the leader then how can any amount of votes by Christians change that outcome?

Can the votes override Gods wishes? If so, then how does that square with Romans 13?

4" For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil."

This verse should tell you that Paul isn't talking about governments, presidents or rulers. Just look at the examples of past leaders around the world. They weren't ministers of God and I refuse to believe that the Bible contains errors.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

Amazing how translations can change things. My Bible says higher authority.

If the new translations are correct and or the meaning is government then we have a Bible with errors. That can't be. Paul could not have been speaking about governments.

4" For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil."

This verse should tell you that Paul isn't talking about governments, presidents or rulers. Just look at the examples of past leaders around the world. They weren't ministers of God and I refuse to believe that the Bible contains errors.

If you are going to assume the bible is without errors then ok, but why not find out if it has errors or look to resolve the errors. Would that not be a better approach?

 

[Arc F1]

If you are going to assume the bible is without errors then ok, but why not find out if it has errors or look to resolve the errors. Would that not be a better approach?

KJV Is without errors. The verse isn't about governments.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

KJV Is without errors. The verse isn't about governments.

If you say so.

 

[Arc F1]

If you say so.

If my interpretations are right it's the church. Rulers, I can't remember the spelling on the Greek term, has been used several times in the Bible and it doesn't mean government. Do you really see Trump as a minister of God? If not then that passage has another meaning.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

If my interpretations are right it's the church. Rulers, I can't remember the spelling on the Greek term, has been used several times in the Bible and it doesn't mean government. Do you really see Trump as a minister of God? If not then that passage has another meaning.

Only if it is true which has not been substantiated. The more likely conclusion is that the bible is not reliable or true in this passage.

 

[Arc F1]

Only if it is true which has not been substantiated. The more likely conclusion is that the bible is not reliable or true in this passage.

. I would hate to be the man that changed the word of God on judgment day. That would be bad.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

. I would hate to be the man that changed the word of God on judgment day. That would be bad.

What is going to happen to me?

 

[Arc F1]

What is going to happen to me?

Are you the guy who translated the Bible to English? I wasn't talking about you. Lol

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

Are you the guy who translated the Bible to English? I wasn't talking about you. Lol

So what will God do to a person that has changed Gods word?

 

[BigDaddy4]

If my interpretations are right it's the church. Rulers, I can't remember the spelling on the Greek term, has been used several times in the Bible and it doesn't mean government. Do you really see Trump as a minister of God? If not then that passage has another meaning.

Interesting viewpoint. I think you may want to check in on your "rulers" assertion above. The Greek archōn is used in several places to mean government rulers in the NT. Also, in context, does the church in verse 6 have the authority to levy taxes (or "tribute", in the KJV)? I don't recall the church having that authority during the time the NT was written. And I'm pretty sure Jesus was all about the separation of church and state.

 

[Arc F1]

Interesting viewpoint. I think you may want to check in on your "rulers" assertion above. The Greek archōn is used in several places to mean government rulers in the NT. Also, in context, does the church in verse 6 have the authority to levy taxes (or "tribute", in the KJV)? I don't recall the church having that authority during the time the NT was written. And I'm pretty sure Jesus was all about the separation of church and state.

I'm still looking for answers. It can't be governing authority like in the newer Bibles. We've had to many rulers that weren't ministers of good. Hitler surely wasn't to be obeyed and I know for sure we are not to obey the antichrist when he comes on the scene.

If it is government or rulers then why on earth would we be told to obey? Any help with this sure would be appreciated.

 

[BigDaddy4]

I'm still looking for answers. It can't be governing authority like in the newer Bibles.

But it is. Even in the original languages.

We've had to many rulers that weren't ministers of good. Hitler surely wasn't to be obeyed and I know for sure we are not to obey the antichrist when he comes on the scene.

God can use believers and non-believers alike to accomplish his will. Why Hitler, et al? Only God knows.

If it is government or rulers then why on earth would we be told to obey? Any help with this sure would be appreciated.

Who do we obey God or man? I believe we are to obey our governments, as commanded by God, unless it contradicts God. There are plenty of ungodly men/rulers/governments throughout history, yet Christianity has flourished despite them. The Greek and Roman empires had their pagan gods, yet the territories they covered were huge. Much of the NT is written in Greek, so some good came out of those empires as the Word was able to be spread more easily, both spoken and written. Because he was a Roman citizen, Paul was able to witness his new found faith to various levels of the Roman government during his travels in his appeal to Caesar in the latter part of Acts.