Romans 13

[Arc F1]

But it is. Even in the original languages.

God can use believers and non-believers alike to accomplish his will. Why Hitler, et al? Only God knows.

Who do we obey God or man? I believe we are to obey our governments, as commanded by God, unless it contradicts God. There are plenty of ungodly men/rulers/governments throughout history, yet Christianity has flourished despite them. The Greek and Roman empires had their pagan gods, yet the territories they covered were huge. Much of the NT is written in Greek, so some good came out of those empires as the Word was able to be spread more easily, both spoken and written. Because he was a Roman citizen, Paul was able to witness his new found faith to various levels of the Roman government during his travels in his appeal to Caesar in the latter part of Acts.

I'm sorry but there has to be another explanation.

"For he is the minister of God to thee for good."

So Hitler was a minister of God and we should believe what happened was for the good? I'm just using Hitler as an example there are plenty of others. The antichrist will be a ruler and I know we can't say he will be a minister of God. If we are to believe Roman's 13 is correct we are going to go against Gods will by not supporting the antichrist. I refuse to believe that.

 

[BigDaddy4]

I'm sorry but there has to be another explanation.

"For he is the minister of God to thee for good."

So Hitler was a minister of God and we should believe what happened was for the good? I'm just using Hitler as an example there are plenty of others. The antichrist will be a ruler and I know we can't say he will be a minister of God. If we are to believe Roman's 13 is correct we are going to go against Gods will by not supporting the antichrist. I refuse to believe that.

If it makes you feel better, just apply it to the Roman rulers of Paul's time. It certainly was not about church rulers, as you had asserted.

In the end, it's all about faith and obedience. We are to trust and obey God's word and his commands, regardless if we agree/disagree with them, or how difficult they may be to follow, right? Perhaps the intent is the same with secular rulers/governments/laws.

Is the antichrist part of God's will? Has God foretold to us that the antichrist will come? How is that different than a Hitler or other cruel regimes throughout history? God never said following him would be easy in this life, he just promises that it will be worth it in His Kingdom in the next.

 

[Arc F1]

If it makes you feel better, just apply it to the Roman rulers of Paul's time. It certainly was not about church rulers, as you had asserted.

In the end, it's all about faith and obedience. We are to trust and obey God's word and his commands, regardless if we agree/disagree with them, or how difficult they may be to follow, right? Perhaps the intent is the same with secular rulers/governments/laws.

Is the antichrist part of God's will? Has God foretold to us that the antichrist will come? How is that different than a Hitler or other cruel regimes throughout history? God never said following him would be easy in this life, he just promises that it will be worth it in His Kingdom in the next.

I don't want to feel good, I just want to figure out who the higher authority is. It says they are the ministers of God and we are to obey, there is no exception listed. The antichrist will be a ruler and we aren't to follow him so higher authority has to mean something else. I don't know who but it just doesn't apply to government or rulers. If in fact it does then people were wrong to stop Hitler, I believe he even used that passage to get people to follow him. I just can't see that being what was intended.

 

[BigDaddy4]

I don't want to feel good, I just want to figure out who the higher authority is. It says they are the ministers of God and we are to obey, there is no exception listed. The antichrist will be a ruler and we aren't to follow him so higher authority has to mean something else. I don't know who but it just doesn't apply to government or rulers. If in fact it does then people were wrong to stop Hitler, I believe he even used that passage to get people to follow him. I just can't see that being what was intended.

You seem to want to focus on a specific person, but Ephesians 6:12 says:
" For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. "

And Colossians 1:16:
“For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.”

And Titus 3:1
Remind the people to be subject to rulers and authorities, to be obedient, to be ready to do whatever is good,

I take that to mean it's not necessarily the Hitler's of the world (i.e., specific persons), but the governing systems and powers that we are to obey in Romans 13. God has set up those systems, but until Jesus comes again to claim his kingdom, we are to obey the laws of the land we are in but continue to do spiritual battle with the evil that is around us - pray, love others, share the Gospel, feed the hungry, etc.

 

[Arc F1]

You seem to want to focus on a specific person, but Ephesians 6:12 says:
" For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. "

And Colossians 1:16:
“For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.”

And Titus 3:1
Remind the people to be subject to rulers and authorities, to be obedient, to be ready to do whatever is good,

I take that to mean it's not necessarily the Hitler's of the world (i.e., specific persons), but the governing systems and powers that we are to obey in Romans 13. God has set up those systems, but until Jesus comes again to claim his kingdom, we are to obey the laws of the land we are in but continue to do spiritual battle with the evil that is around us - pray, love others, share the Gospel, feed the hungry, etc.

Sorry. Wasn't trying to focus on any one person. It could be anybody throughout history. It does say "he" meaning the one in charge. It makes no exception for disobedience. I can't fit this into being a government or a ruler because it says minister of God. If in deed this means ruler or governing authority we have to obey. That just can not be for the reasons I stated earlier. I think I'm going to search more into translation and earlier documents.

4 for he is a minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is a minister of God, an avenger for wrath to him that doeth evil.

 

[BigDaddy4]

Sorry. Wasn't trying to focus on any one person. It could be anybody throughout history. It does say "he" meaning the one in charge. It makes no exception for disobedience. I can't fit this into being a government or a ruler because it says minister of God. If in deed this means ruler or governing authority we have to obey. That just can not be for the reasons I stated earlier. I think I'm going to search more into translation and earlier documents.

4 for he is a minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is a minister of God, an avenger for wrath to him that doeth evil.

It seems like you are getting hung up on the word "minister", as if it's supposed to be a clergy-type person. It also seems like you are a literal person. The word also means "servant", as in God's servant. I take that to mean that whomever the "they" or "he" is, is carrying out God's plan. That doesn't necessarily mean, IMO, that the "they" or the "he" is saved or acts in a Godly manner. In my opinion, "they/he" is similar to a Pharaoh, or a Judas, or any other evil person found in Scripture - they are a part of God's plan, but not necessarily part of God's kingdom.

Best wishes in your deeper studies. Personally, I dislike the KJV and it's 500 year old translations. So maybe a newer translation paired with a good concordance will help you in your search.

 

[dóxatotheó]

Since Romans 13:1-2 says that God chooses our leaders. Can Christians change God's will by voting? If not, why should they vote?

Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.

God can use unbelievers and Gods will isnt in eternity so the leaders are already planned before eternity. Also people voting doesnt choose our leaders kinda proven already by Trump and the 2016 controversy

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

God can use unbelievers and Gods will isnt in eternity so the leaders are already planned before eternity. Also people voting doesnt choose our leaders kinda proven already by Trump and the 2016 controversy

No, we actually do choose our leaders. Provide evidence that votes were not counted correctly enough to give President Trump the election.

 

[dóxatotheó]

No, we actually do choose our leaders. Provide evidence that votes were not counted correctly enough to give President Trump the election.

completely different topic secondly provide evidence popular vote decides election

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

completely different topic secondly provide evidence popular vote decides election

We do for all other offices except the Presidency. But then we still do choose our President in the US. Just not by the popular vote.

 

[dóxatotheó]

We do for all other offices except the Presidency. But then we still do choose our President in the US. Just not by the popular vote.

Electoral decides presidency, we get no decision regarding presidency there are branches presidency is the branch that society can make noise in but not make a difference in. Also God can do mysterious things like use people to choose who will be in office etc. This is what makes us understand what sovereignty is.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

Electoral decides presidency, we get no decision regarding presidency there are branches presidency is the branch that society can make noise in but not make a difference in.

You don't think who your local officials are makes a difference? They affect your life more than what the President does on a daily basis.

Also God can do mysterious things like use people to choose who will be in office etc. This is what makes us understand what sovereignty is.

This was my original point. If this is the case why do Christians vote? Romans 13 is clear that God decides who our leaders are.

 

[dóxatotheó]

You don't think who your local officials are makes a difference? They affect your life more than what the President does on a daily basis.

Of course governors and Senates help out everyday life and those elected officials doesn't change. How God chooses his officials he uses all judicial branches. Like I said God can choose all leaders but he never explicitly state how he does it. God is sovereign he uses his creation, since you think otherwise quote me any scholars who hold to your views.

This was my original point. If this is the case why do Christians vote? Romans 13 is clear that God decides who our leaders are.

Yeah God decides the leaders but doesn't explicitly explain how he does it.

 

[ChetSinger]

You can't have both. If God has decided who will be the leader then how can any amount of votes by Christians change that outcome?

Can the votes override Gods wishes? If so, then how does that square with Romans 13?

Here's how I understand it: just because God's in authority doesn't mean that he predestines everything (see 1 Samuel 23:1-14). Sometimes he changes his mind based on man's actions (see 2 Kings 20:1-7), and sometimes we ourselves can change a prophetic word by our actions (again, see 1 Samuel 23:1-14).

Both of those passages describe events that determined the rulership of Israel. So while he's in charge he's also living and active, and interacts with us to shape our future. So I decide to vote, just as I decide anything else.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

Of course governors and Senates help out everyday life and those elected officials doesn't change. How God chooses his officials he uses all judicial branches. Like I said God can choose all leaders but he never explicitly state how he does it. God is sovereign he uses his creation, since you think otherwise quote me any scholars who hold to your views.

I don't need to, I have explained my views. You are free to accept or reject them based on their merit.

Yeah God decides the leaders but doesn't explicitly explain how he does it.

So if we don't vote it would thwart Gods ability to choose our leaders? Does our voting affect Gods ability to select Biden as our president?

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

Here's how I understand it: just because God's in authority doesn't mean that he predestines everything (see 1 Samuel 23:1-14). Sometimes he changes his mind based on man's actions (see 2 Kings 20:1-7), and sometimes we ourselves can change a prophetic word by our actions (again, see 1 Samuel 23:1-14).

Both of those passages describe events that determined the rulership of Israel. So while he's in charge he's also living and active, and interacts with us to shape our future. So I decide to vote, just as I decide anything else.

So by voting does that change Gods plan at all about how He chooses leaders?

 

[ChetSinger]

So by voting does that change Gods plan at all about how He chooses leaders?

It might. I gave you two examples of God changing his prophetic word based on the actions of men, and both involved the question of who was going to rule Israel. Those examples don't mean he's not in authority; they mean he interacts with us in shaping the future.

 

[dóxatotheó]

So if we don't vote it would thwart Gods ability to choose our leaders? Does our voting affect Gods ability to select Biden as our president?

How many times i gotta tell you we dont vote for our president to you not understand what branches are friend honest question?

 

[Ed1wolf]

Since Romans 13:1-2 says that God chooses our leaders. Can Christians change God's will by voting? If not, why should they vote?

Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.

No, we cannot change Gods plan or will by voting. But also whoever gets the most votes wins, so if you want someone to win vote for them.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

It might. I gave you two examples of God changing his prophetic word based on the actions of men, and both involved the question of who was going to rule Israel. Those examples don't mean he's not in authority; they mean he interacts with us in shaping the future.

But God decides right? Would God not get what he wants because we voted a different way than what He wanted?