Rioters should be charged with murder

[gaara4158]

That's impossible. 1 in 4 US'ers have mental health problems. Most keep it under control to a degree that does not require police intervention

“Better things aren’t possible.” How patriotic.

 

[Subduction Zone]

What I find comical is some of the same people who just a few months ago were crying “defund the Police”, and “They can’t use rubber bullets on them” when the left wing crazies were rioting, are now saying “where were the police, and how were they able to do this” when the right wing crazies did for just 3 hours of 1 day in only 1 city, what the left wing crazies did all night long for months on end in cities all over the country. Hypocrisy is a mutha ain’t it???

There probably are some like that. But the it is all but certain that the majority of those that can see how evil Trump is did not make those claims. This makes your argument a bit of a strawman and a rather worthless Tu Quoque fallacy. It does not excuse the fact that many of the rioters deserve some serious prison time and that Trump should be impeached and found guilty for his part in those riots.

 

[Subduction Zone]

“Better things aren’t possible.” How patriotic.

Wow! Another unbelievably poor argument. He never said or implied that it was not possible to do better. You put an unrealistic goal out there. He merely corrected you.

 

[gaara4158]

Wow! Another unbelievably poor argument. He never said or implied that it was not possible to do better. You put an unrealistic goal out there. He merely corrected you.

Let’s be clear. Responding to a post outlining the general goal of investing in public mental health instead of focusing on police response to mentally ill people in public with “that’s impossible” isn’t a correction. It’s rejection of the idea altogether.

 

[Subduction Zone]

There shouldn’t be any disturbed people on the street in the first place. We need to divert many of our funds from sending police out to shoot these people into public programs that prevent them from ending up on the street in the first place. Or we can fund both, and hear the conservatives howl about overspending while there’s nothing for the police to do most days.

Police are not sent out to shoot people. A big part of the problem is that they are already under funded. Not enough personal is the number once cause for many of the shootings. When it is one cop he often does not have choice but to use his sidearm. I more universal fix is needed. Proper funding of the police and additional funding to try to help those in need of help. The police are sent out in far too many situations. Cities have tried to be too cheap and the price to pay is more deaths due to shootings.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Let’s be clear. Responding to a post outlining the general goal of investing in public mental health instead of focusing on police response to mentally ill people in public with “that’s impossible” isn’t a correction. It’s rejection of the idea altogether.

Perhaps you both should try to practice "steelmanning" instead of strawmanning. Put your opponents argument in the best wording possible, not the worst, and you will have a more accurate rebuttal.

 

[Ken-1122]

Completely irrelevant. Unless you’re arguing that the emergence of CHOP negates the existence of abrasive police tactics elsewhere, there’s no reason to bring up this event.

I’m not justifying bad police tactics, my point is about how the leftist justified CHOP and looked the other way when the left commits terrorism in the name of BLM, but become outraged and cries of white supremacy when a small fraction of such terrorism happens on the right. If you were not outraged with the months of rioting during the BLM/ANTFIA protests, you have no right to be outraged due to what happened in DC

 

[gaara4158]

Police are not sent out to shoot people. A big part of the problem is that they are already under funded. Not enough personal is the number once cause for many of the shootings. When it is one cop he often does not have choice but to use his sidearm. I more universal fix is needed. Proper funding of the police and additional funding to try to help those in need of help. The police are sent out in far too many situations. Cities have tried to be too cheap and the price to pay is more deaths due to shootings.

See, you get it. Taking funding away from the police and doing nothing else obviously won’t help anyone. Luckily, no one is in favor of that proposition. Defund the Police is a slogan representing what I’ve been saying here, that much of the crime we see is a result of social issues that could realistically be addressed by social programs, alleviating the need for so many police to be deployed and thus the reduced need for police funding would pay for the expanded social programs we propose.

Perhaps you both should try to practice "steelmanning" instead of strawmanning. Put your opponents argument in the best wording possible, not the worst, and you will have a more accurate rebuttal.

You are right, but it feels like a waste of time and effort to respond in good faith to someone who opens with something as crude and flippiant as “hypocrisy is a mutha’ ain’t it?”

 

[timothyu]

“Better things aren’t possible.” How patriotic.

Nothing to do with patriotics. Would you like to see 90 million US'ers institutionalised so they may not encounter troubles of their own making in the street? I thought we got over that idea. Although, like prisons, I suppose there are those who see privatisation of that idea a profitable concept also.

 

[Ken-1122]

There probably are some like that. But the it is all but certain that the majority of those that can see how evil Trump is did not make those claims.

I realize not everybody is doing this, but my point is concerning those who are making those claims.

This makes your argument a bit of a strawman and a rather worthless Tu Quoque fallacy.

It would be a straw man if such people didn't exist! But there are a lot of people who are doing as I mentioned.

It does not excuse the fact that many of the rioters deserve some serious prison time and that Trump should be impeached and found guilty for his part in those riots.

What did Trump do? He gave a speech the day before the vote at a park, the next day a bunch of people from his rally gathered at the building where the vote was going to take place, and they stormed the building as they began to vote in order to prevent the vote from happening. I don’t think he can be legally blamed for what those rioters did.

 

[gaara4158]

I’m not justifying bad police tactics, my point is about how the leftist justified CHOP and looked the other way when the left commits terrorism in the name of BLM, but become outraged and cries of white supremacy when a small fraction of such terrorism happens on the right. If you were not outraged with the months of rioting during the BLM/ANTFIA protests, you have no right to be outraged due to what happened in DC

There’s no comparison between the two. One was a legitimate movement with legitimate grievances and violence at the fringes, the other was a violent attempted coup based on a faked conspiracy theory.

 

[gaara4158]

Nothing to do with patriotics. Would you like to see 90 million US'ers institutionalised so they may not encounter troubles of their own making in the street? I thought we got over that idea. Although, like prisons, I suppose there are those who see privatisation of that idea a profitable concept also.

No, I would like mental healthcare to be ubiquitous and high-quality. Strange that your mind goes straight to institutionalization, though. Noted.

 

[Subduction Zone]

See, you get it. Taking funding away from the police and doing nothing else obviously won’t help anyone. Luckily, no one is in favor of that proposition. Defund the Police is a slogan representing what I’ve been saying here, that much of the crime we see is a result of social issues that could realistically be addressed by social programs, alleviating the need for so many police to be deployed and thus the reduced need for police funding would pay for the expanded social programs we propose.

You are right, but it feels like a waste of time and effort to respond in good faith to someone who opens with something as crude and flippiant as “hypocrisy is a mutha’ ain’t it?”

The problem with the "Defund the police" slogan is that the opposition takes it literally. And so did many middle of the road Americans. I should have saved it, but even Biden acknowledged that the protests were apparently the cause of a lack of a "Blue Wave" to accompany his victory. A lot of middle of the roaders still voted for Republican members of Congress. I can see how it sounded good to the protesters, but it was self defeating in the long run.

 

[Strathos]

The problem with the "Defund the police" slogan is that the opposition takes it literally. And so did many middle of the road Americans. I should have saved it, but even Biden acknowledged that the protests were apparently the cause of a lack of a "Blue Wave" to accompany his victory. A lot of middle of the roaders still voted for Republican members of Congress. I can see how it sounded good to the protesters, but it was self defeating in the long run.

It's not a very good slogan.

 

[Subduction Zone]

No, I would like mental healthcare to be ubiquitous and high-quality. Strange that your mind goes straight to institutionalization, though. Noted.

Uh oh!! Sounds like socialism to me

Sorry, but that is so often the response to reasonable solutions. I may not agree with Bernie on a lot, but I do agree with him about health care. We have one of the most inefficient systems out there. We pay more and get less. And it is the a silly fear of "socialism" that keeps us from advancing. Sooner or later it is more efficient for the government to do certain jobs. The police, fire departments, road systems, schools, even the armed forces are all "socialist" by the definition that some Republicans use.


Sorry for the rant.

 

[Ken-1122]

There’s no comparison between the two. One was a legitimate movement with legitimate grievances and violence at the fringes, the other was a violent attempted coup based on a faked conspiracy theory.

How can you justify the rioting in the cities that had nothing to do with the Floyd death? In Seattle and Portland they were rioting against the Police in those states due to a crime that happened thousands of miles away! If they wanted to riot, they should have gone to the police department where the crime happened and do it there. That would be akin to a black man raping a white woman in one city, then a white mob attacks black people all over the country! If that happened you would be outraged.

 

[Subduction Zone]

What did Trump do? He gave a speech the day before the vote at a park, the next day a bunch of people from his rally gathered at the building where the vote was going to take place, and they stormed the building as they began to vote in order to prevent the vote from happening. I don’t think he can be legally blamed for what those rioters did.

He also lied and said that he won the election. He put the idea of attacking the Capitol building in their head and promised to march with them (a sudden attack of bone spuritis prevented that). He urged them to do what they did. Once they attacked he did not respond properly and allow the use of the National Guard. Pence had to go around him to do that. He started the riot and did nothing to end it, even though he was in a position to do so. He is culpable.

 

[timothyu]

No, I would like mental healthcare to be ubiquitous and high-quality.

It is already there with ten of thousands of workers seeking to solidify their jobs and pay. Defunding the police should help.
But in the end unless the troubled want help and stick to the program there is nothing anyone can do. And to be quite honest, a lot of jobs in the field would be lost if the troubled did take responsibility .

 

[Subduction Zone]

How can you justify the rioting in the cities that had nothing to do with the Floyd death? In Seattle and Portland they were rioting against the Police in those states due to a crime that happened thousands of miles away! If they wanted to riot, they should have gone to the police department where the crime happened and do it there. That would be akin to a black man raping a white woman in one city, then a white mob attacks black people all over the country! If that happened you would be outraged.

It was not just Floyd's death. There was the general perception that police are too quick to shoot. Floyd's death, and the fact that there was massive unemployment due to the Corona virus lit the powder keg.

Ironically Floyd's death was handled properly before the riots even began. The police fired and charged the officers involved. But it was too little too late for what was seen as a much larger problem.

Now let's look at what happened in DC. A delusional mob that believed the lies that Trump had won were led astray by Trump again when he lied one more time and then promised to lead the people to the Capitol. He lied on at least two levels there. Those people then tried to stage a violent coup by preventing what should have been just a ceremony. By the way, the various bad actors, such as Senator Cruz in the Senate, should be charged as well. Or at the very least they all deserve Censure by the Congress. And that would be just a slap on the wrist for their malfeasance.

 

[Ken-1122]

The problem with the "Defund the police" slogan is that the opposition takes it literally. And so did many middle of the road Americans.

That's because the people who coined the phrase meant it literally. Had they meant something different, they would have said something different.