Righteousness by Faith

[Dave-W]

So what you are saying is that the "enemies of the gospel" will be saved?

Yes. Speaking of those "enemies of the gospel:"

Zechariah 12:10 “I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn.

i.e., they will all repent and believe the gospel.

 

[masmpg]

When people use the label of "Christian", it communicates certain things about who they are, such as that they are someone who observes Christmas and Easter, but doesn't observe God's holy days, or someone who worships on Sunday, but doesn't keep God's Sabbath, so there are many Messianics who believe that the Bible is true, but prefer not to call themselves "Christians" because it communicates incorrect things about what they believe or because of the reputation that Christians have earned (soyeong quote)

I agree with the principles you stated here, but to be ashamed of the name of Christian because of how people might think is almost like being ashamed of Jesus. In the time of the worst persecution against Christians the disciples coined the name Christian in Acts:11:26: "And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch." The disciples were not afraid, nor ashamed in any way of the title of Christian. They were actually glad to admit it and even happy to suffer because of it. To hide our title in any way will lead people to think that we are something else, and that might cause us to receive something we would not want from God. Jesus said Mark:8:38: "Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels." The word CHRIST-ian means someone from Christ. I have talked to people that go so far as to say that they are not Christians, but they are followers of Jesus, this deception was started by jole osteen and company. I will always gladly admit any title the Lord gives to me. I am a Seventh day Adventist Christian no matter what anybody accuses me of. During the days of Jesus people were cast out of the church for professing His name. The title Christian has been around since the beginning of the apostolic Christian church in the first century and we need to stand and protect it.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I don't remember verifying this,
always thought everyone knew this,
the disciples did not 'coin' the term -
pagan proud people called the disciples of Y'SHUA
idiots,
simpletons,
and
christian
as a derogatory name, not a cool or good or uplifting name;
and
looked
on
even the Apostles as outcasts and 'strange fellows' because they
would no longer defend themselves or take part in politics
on their own behalf ,
and they
would always tell the truth
even if and when it meant great loss for them (loss of life, family, home, job, etc) ,
and
they would never harm another person,
even in self-defense= just like today, they are thought "ODD" ...

In the time of the worst persecution against Christians the disciples coined the name Christian in Acts:11:26

 

[Sabbathkeeper&Wife]

Well, here's a similarity, If two percent of the sheepherders actually took care of the sheep and did a square business with the people that bought them, and the other 98, weren't really sheepherders, but had a few sheep around and a sign, but robbed and killed everyone that stopped to look at or buy a sheep- even advertising in the phone book and in the school calendar with your kid, as "sheepherders" and since they had a license and a sign to keep sheep and the name- thus making the occupation and name of real sheepherders MUD, how would you handle the situation? Without being able to go around burning out the apostate sheepherders , due to an order from the head of the sheepherders association because he said a few good sheepherders would get burned out accidentally, what do you do? Plus, some of the sheepherders actually want to do a good business but they learned sheepherding from the bad herders. I personally would find a specific character trait that the good sheepherders do, that the bad ones don't and somehow work that trait into my business name. It's a label. Going through a carwash doesn't mean that you're a car. How do you tackle the problem ,knowing that the bad sheepherders will always outnumber the good ones. Keep in mind also that the bad sheepherders slander your business saying that you didn't go to their accredited sheepherder school, and when they Rob and kill, they follow the people home and don't bring any suspension upon them selves. You've talked to the head of the sheepherders association and he says with no proof, you'll have to wait on the big suprise audit coming up to make your case and just continue to operate like you know how, otherwise there will be no place to buy good sheep and the people still need a place to buy good sheep.

 

[masmpg]

Jesus Name was MUD!!! Jesus never tried to hide from all the horrible accusations they threw at Him constantly. I am more than happy to be called by the name the bible gave me and that is Christian. I will die defending that title, hundreds of millions already have. To admit the title of Christian is like wearing a neon sign for Jesus. Being Christian is no business. It is a lifetime experience, not just a relationship.

In a business venture I would agree 100% with your analogy, but as a Christian I would rather advertise all I can, even if it leads to my death, or even being mocked, like I get on here once in a while. Being mocked and made fun of are tools used to strengthen our characters for what is coming. We are told throughout the new testament, but here in James:1:2-4: "My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations; Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience. But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing." In another place we read it like this Romans:5:1-5: "Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; And patience, experience; and experience, hope: And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us."

 

[Sabbathkeeper&Wife]

Jesus Name was MUD!!! Jesus never tried to hide from all the horrible accusations they threw at Him

No,Sir- You misquote me- In my metaphor, that's how the WORLD sees" Christians" due to all the horrible things they've done IN THE NAME OF GOD. It's also why I use Sabbath keeper. Anyone that knows anything about Christianity knows that Sabbath is a Christian day, a different one, but still Christian. Those of our flock know automatically. Most Sunday keepers are indoctrinated into thinking we are a cult. Of course I'm proud to be a Christian, but also try to seperate myself in title from those keeping the venerable day of the sun. That's for THEM and ME. The "self proclaimed Christians" in most places of authority and teaching do bring shame to the name. Perhaps business may or may not be a proper choice, but it's what I do- all day, everyday. I try to be about my Father's business. It doesn't pay a thing......here. Id feel awful guilty if it did. I'm trying to buy gold tried in the fire, setting up riches in His kingdom. Sure, it was just a metaphor , but I think it fits. You see, when YOU say IM A CHRISTIAN to someone, what do you think they see? If they're from America, they may see a Sunday keeping guy, wearing loafers, driving a station wagon, OR they may see someone that did something bad to them when they were an alterboy. Attendance records and public opinion reflect that whatever the view is, its diminishing daily. From certain other areas, they may see someone that took their land and killed their ancestors a thousand years ago in the name of their god. In others, someone trying to push their agenda on their religion, their values and ruin their kids life with horrors from the west. You and I are the ones that are going to suffer here on earth for all that, not the guy with the loafers. I'm all-in

 

[masmpg]

Yes. Speaking of those "enemies of the gospel:"

Zechariah 12:10 “I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn.

i.e., they will all repent and believe the gospel.

I do not read here that they will repent??? Nor believe the gospel.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

WE BETTER HOPE THEY DO !
Y'SHUA WON'T RETURN
until they all cry out "BLESSED IS HE WHO COMES IN THE NAME ADONAI! "
same
as they did during Y'SHUA'S entry to Jerusalem on a donkey and her foal.

I do not read here that they will repent??? Nor believe the gospel.

 

[masmpg]

WE BETTER HOPE THEY DO !
Y'SHUA WON'T RETURN
until they all cry out "BLESSED IS HE WHO COMES IN THE NAME ADONAI! "
same
as they did during Y'SHUA'S entry to Jerusalem on a donkey and her foal.

But they didn't ALL cry out when Jesus entered into Jerusalem, only those who believe in Jesus and accept Him will be the ones who will cry out. If you are waiting for every jew in the world to be "saved" well, you are going to wait for long time, even after Jesus comes.

 

[Dave-W]

I do not read here that they will repent??? Nor believe the gospel.

"Mourn," "weep bitterly" indicates repentance.

 

[masmpg]

"Mourn," "weep bitterly" indicates repentance.

Repentance means to turn away from, as in cease from sinning.

Here is another example where they wept and mourned.
Luke:23:28-30: But Jesus turning unto them said, Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children. For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck. Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, Fall on us; and to the hills, Cover us." Are these "saved"? And again in Revelation:6:16: "And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:" These are hiding from Jesus not accepting Him.

 

[Sabbathkeeper&Wife]

I couldn't find where I posted all the pre-cut & paste scripture I put down on spiritual Isreal so I reckon I've got to start over - drat
First, we have to see that one man was first called Isreal (Jacob), then his 12 kids (which became the twelve tribes) THEN we have to look at the similarities between the calling of Joseph having a dream, being called to go to Egypt and ALL the similar things Christ did. Point for point, both being called sons, but where Isreal failed, Christ overcame.
Rev 2:7-
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
Gen 32:28-
And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.
He claimed God's grace and overcame- You'll see that that's what makes US spiritual Isreal IF we overcome. That's the KEY
EX 4:22-23-
And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:
23 And I say unto thee, Let my son go, that he may serve me: and if thou refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay thy son, even thy firstborn.
Isreal already not living up to its name-
Ex 4:1-
And Moses answered and said, But, behold, they will not believe me, nor hearken unto my voice: for they will say, The LORD hath not appeared unto thee.
-Hos 11:1-
When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.
Look at Christ's happenings.
Mt 2:13-
And when they were departed, behold, the angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him.
Mt 2:15-
And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.
Mathew had quoted Hosea .
Isreal spent 40 years in wilderness, led by a pillar of fire (fire is holy spirit) then Moses wrote -Deut., Jesus led by Spirit 40 days, then uses Duet quotes to battle satan.
PS 80:8- ISREAL
Thou hast brought a vine out of Egypt: thou hast cast out the heathen, and planted it.
Then Jesus-
Jn 15:1-
I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman
Jesus said after healing some people, not to make Him known yet that Esaias (Isaiah) may be fulfilled. He spoke of
Is 42:1-3-
Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.
2 He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street.
3 A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth.
Yet just before-
Is 41:8-
But thou, Israel, art my servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend.
It goes and goes. First you had A man- Isreal, then a nation Isreal, then Gods children Isreal. Here's some scripture to show thus-
Gal 3:7-
Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
Gal 3:16-
Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
Gal 3:26-29-
For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Gal 4:26-
But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
Rom 2:5-11-
But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
Rom 2:28-29-
For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
Rom 9:5-8-
Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
Jer 31:31-34-
Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
Then NT-
HEB 8:10-12-
For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
THIS THING IS TRIPPIN OUT SO IM GOING TO DO IT IN TWO PARTS IN CASE I LOSE IT COMPLETELY.

 

[Sabbathkeeper&Wife]

-Ez 36:26-28- also
A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.
Is 63:7-8-
I will mention the lovingkindnesses of the LORD, and the praises of the LORD, according to all that the LORD hath bestowed on us, and the great goodness toward the house of Israel, which he hath bestowed on them according to his mercies, and according to the multitude of his lovingkindnesses.
8 For he said, Surely they are my people, children that will not lie: so he was their Saviour.
Zeph 3:13-
The remnant of Israel shall not do iniquity, nor speak lies; neither shall a deceitful tongue be found in their mouth: for they shall feed and lie down, and none shall make them afraid.
Heb 11:10-
For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.
Heb 12:22-
But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
Heb 13:14-
For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come.
Ex 19:6-
And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel. And NT..
1Pet 2:9-
But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
I COR 12:27- According to James-
Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
REV 12- ALL
And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Rev 14:12-
Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

 

[Dave-W]

Repentance means to turn away from, as in cease from sinning.

Repent is the english rendering of 2 words. In the Hebrew Scriptures it is teshuva. It means to turn around and go the opposite direction. It is from the root shub, meaning to turn.

In the Greek NT scriptures it is metanoin, meaning to change your mind.

So it is a change of mind and a change of actions.

 

[Dave-W]

But they didn't ALL cry out when Jesus entered into Jerusalem, only those who believe in Jesus and accept Him will be the ones who will cry out. If you are waiting for every jew in the world to be "saved" well, you are going to wait for long time, even after Jesus comes.

Rom 11.11 I say then, they [physical Israel] did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous. 12 Now if their transgression is riches for the world and their failure is riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their fulfillment be! 13 But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14 if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them. 15 For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?

Do you see what the apostle is saying here? God knew Israel was hard in heart and would (as a group) reject His Messiah. That set into motion the gospel going to the Gentiles. We should all be very thankful for that step. But look at the end of it, where their group rejection is turned to group acceptance. It will be "... life from the dead."

I guess I have to ask - why do you NOT want that to happen?

 

[masmpg]

-Ez 36:26-28- also
A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.
Is 63:7-8-
I will mention the lovingkindnesses of the LORD, and the praises of the LORD, according to all that the LORD hath bestowed on us, and the great goodness toward the house of Israel, which he hath bestowed on them according to his mercies, and according to the multitude of his lovingkindnesses.
8 For he said, Surely they are my people, children that will not lie: so he was their Saviour.
Zeph 3:13-
The remnant of Israel shall not do iniquity, nor speak lies; neither shall a deceitful tongue be found in their mouth: for they shall feed and lie down, and none shall make them afraid.
Heb 11:10-
For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.
Heb 12:22-
But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
Heb 13:14-
For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come.
Ex 19:6-
And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel. And NT..
1Pet 2:9-
But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
I COR 12:27- According to James-
Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
REV 12- ALL
And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Rev 14:12-
Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

It is good to start over frequently so these things stay fresh in our minds for when we need them most. It looks like I will have to copy/paste these.

 

[masmpg]

Repent is the english rendering of 2 words. In the Hebrew Scriptures it is teshuva. It means to turn around and go the opposite direction. It is from the root shub, meaning to turn.

In the Greek NT scriptures it is metanoin, meaning to change your mind.

So it is a change of mind and a change of actions.

As in turning away from sin. Stop sinning. Going from the flesh to the Spirit, from carnal to spiritual, from sin to righteousness. We cannot be both carnal and spiritual like most who profess the Name of Jesus believe and teach.

 

[masmpg]

Rom 11.11 I say then, they [physical Israel] did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous. 12 Now if their transgression is riches for the world and their failure is riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their fulfillment be! 13 But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14 if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them. 15 For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?

Do you see what the apostle is saying here? God knew Israel was hard in heart and would (as a group) reject His Messiah. That set into motion the gospel going to the Gentiles. We should all be very thankful for that step. But look at the end of it, where their group rejection is turned to group acceptance. It will be "... life from the dead."

I guess I have to ask - why do you NOT want that to happen?

I am not saying that NONE of Israel will accept Jesus, but you seem to be stating the all the jews will accept Jesus and that will never happen. Paul is not stating that they will all be grafted back in. All one has to do is look at the immorality of the jews (zionists) today. Do you realize that the rothchilds are jews? They donated money to hitler to exterminate the jews, along with a host of other banksters and organizations one would never expect. The "jews" that the zionists wanted exterminated were the ashkanazis, and the shepardics. To even consider these "zionist" jews to be of God in any way is blind at best. They never have been and never will be.

 

[Dave-W]

They never have been and never will be.

"never have been" Perhaps.

"never will be" Are you saying God is incapable of turning them around?

 

[masmpg]

I am not saying He is incapable, but it is not HE who does it. All God does is convict, or reprove the world of sin righteousness and judgment through the Comforter. God will never force any. If in the past nothing like this has ever happened, why would it happen in the future?

For groups of believers to rely on Israel being converted as a sign pointing to the beginning or end of something is quite a stretch.